RealGM: Standing 10 - The Best Power Fowards

[nets4life]

http://www.realgm.com/src_feature/679/2 ... _forwards/

might aswell do post this since i did the previous ones.
heres my top 10

1/ Dirk Nowitzki - Watch the 06 Playoffs and youll know why
2/ Elton Brand - Great inside presence on both ends
3/ Kevin Garnett - Great all round player, would be higher with playoff success
4/ Shawn Marion - Played superbly for the Suns all season in all categorys
5/ Tim Duncan - Awful year by his standards due to injury. will be back next season
6/ Pau Gasol - Great player, scores heavily, rebounds and blocks shots with ease
7/ Chris Bosh - Canada's main man, next year he will jump up a few spots but needs to improve on defense imo
8/ Dwight Howard - A beast on the boards, needs to develop some more post moves. will one day top this list
9/ Odom - Not really a PF but has alround skills, a good complement player to Kobe
10/ Webber - Future HOF? yes. even now with his crappy job in philly he still puts up nice stats

[CMJ3]

I wouldnt rate Elton number one, hes a good player but Nowitzki, Duncan and Garnett are all probably better than him overall. Elton just had a good 2006 on a good team.

[Princy]

Marion isn't as good as Duncan and Gasol.

[Matt]

wow, what a shitty list.

Alright, Duncan had a shitty (relative) season, but that was due to injury. He's still the best PF in the game, with only Garnett IMO able to take that title away.

He doesn't even have Rasheed Wallace on that list, whom just happens to be an all-star and is easily better than Webber, or Odom, hell even Gasol. Rasheed just happens to be part of a unique group of players consisting of himself & KG who can actually guard Duncan & score on him.

[cklitsie]

Damn, I remember earlier this year I said Duncan had a bad year compared to his earlier year and I got flamed the f-ck out.

[Dro]

Marion isn't as good as Duncan and Gasol.

Marion averages more ppg and rpg than Gasol. He beats Duncan is almost every category except for assists and blocks. Now I wouldn't argue than he's better than Duncan...Duncan is totally a dominant player. But he is better than Gasol.

[Dramacydal]

They say Brand is better than Nowitzki and they also say that Nowitzki is one of the 5 best players in the league. Cerrect me if I'm wrong but wouldn't that make Brand one of the 5 best players in the NBA aswell? This list is aweful.

[Indy]

Oh my god... I don't believe that Jermaine O'Neal isn't on the list. Lamar Odom... over Jermaine O'Neal...? They must have Jermaine as a center, there's no excuse for that.

1.) Kevin Garnett
2.) Elton Brand
3.) Dirk Nowitzki
4.) Tim Duncan
5.) Jermaine O'Neal
6.) Chris Bosh
7.) Dwight Howard
8.) Rasheed Wallace
9.) Pau Gasol
10.) Antawn Jamison

[Matt]

Indy, i can't believe you have Jamison in your list

[---]

1. Kevin Garnett
2. Dirk Nowitzki
3. Tim Duncan
4. Elton Brand
5. Jermaine O'Neal
6. Dwight Howard
7. Pau Gasol
8. Chris Bosh
9. Rasheed Wallace
10. Chris Webber

Just Missed = Antawn Jamison, Zach Randolph, Amare Stoudemire (injured), Al Harrington (stuck between both F spots), Lamar Odom (stuck between both F spots), Shawn Marion (stuck between both F spots)

[Indy]

Indy, i can't believe you have Jamison in your list

Why not? I think Jamison is very underrated. There was a small report that the Pacers were offered Jamison for Ron Artest and I was very pro doing that deal.

I will take Jamison over Odom or Al Harrington any day.

[Gedas]

Indy, i can't believe you have Jamison in your list

Why not? I think Jamison is very underrated. There was a small report that the Pacers were offered Jamison for Ron Artest and I was very pro doing that deal.

I will take Jamison over Odom or Al Harrington any day.

THEY DIDN'T TAKE JAMISON FOR ARTEST?!?!?

Man Bird is really a terrible manager, not to menthion his love for Saras.

[maes]

JON spent slightly more minutes at C than PF this season, i'm pretty sure he's going to be on the C list.

I don't put much credence in Aaron's lists, but I did a double-take at Brand being #1. So if this guy was a GM he would trade away Kevin Garnett or Dirk Nowitzki for Elton Brand? Ludicrous.

THEY DIDN'T TAKE JAMISON FOR ARTEST?!?!?

Man Bird is really a terrible manager, not to menthion his love for Saras.

You can't trade Jamison straight up for Artest, Antawn makes $15M this year and $16M next year, Bird would have to have thrown in Stephen Jackson or Jamal Tinsley in addition to Artest to make the trade work.

[Indy]

I would take Elton Brand over any power forward in the league except for Kevin Garnett.

Brand is a better shotblocker, overall defender, passer and rebounder then Dirk. They are both equally efffective at scoring the ball and Brand is more consistent. I don't see how you couldn't take Elton over Dirk.

I take Elton over Duncan only because Duncan is on a bit of a decline and Elton is still rising. Elton is a surefire hall of famer in my opinion. When he's finished he'll have at least 1 ring as well.

JON spent slightly more minutes at C than PF this season

Not really.

You can't trade Jamison straight up for Artest, Antawn makes $15M this year and $16M next year, Bird would have to have thrown in Stephen Jackson or Jamal Tinsley in addition to Artest to make the trade work.

We would have given them Croshere. So overall we could have had Al and Marquis Daniels, or Jamison. I'll take the Al and Marquis package any day.

[maes]

Brand finishes what the guards set up, his points are more assisted than Nowtizki's by a good margin. His threat area is mid range & close to the rim, Nowtizki's threat range extends to the 3 point line, he shot 41% from beyond arc while being every team's focus on defense. Brand does score with excellent reliability, but those are all 2's and frequently assisted, Dirk scores on 2's & 3's and frequently starts with the ball or sets up high. Nowitzki draws more fouls for easy points, and converts at 91%, Brand is great at drawing free throws as well, but he still draws less and converts at 78%...that's excellent but Dirk is just better.

Passing, i don't think either is amazing at passing to the point it can be called a serious advantage (like for Odom), but stats-wise Dirk does have a fractionally better assist line of 2.8 vs Brand's 2.6.

Brand is obviously better on defense & rebounding, but the margin isn't as wide as it was in previous years, i wouldn't be surprised if Dirk gets better on D now that Dallas is taking it seriously to make him a defensive player.

I suppose it depends on what your team already has, but starting with a blank slate, taking KG or Dirk is a no brainer IMO.

[---]

I think Jamison is very underrated.

I agree. You never hear anything about Antawn even though hes one of the few 20/10 (almost) guys in this league, yet alone doing that on a team with a guy like Gilbert Arenas. Hes an amazing rebounder, great defender, mismatch on offence with his size and strength, and is a pretty decent shooter. This season, only 5 (*included Chris Webber who averaged 9.9 rpg) players averaged 20 points per game and 10 rebounds. Jamison finished up with 20.5 ppg and 9.3rpg, close enough to that 20 and 10 mark. He also played all 82 games this season, and finished with 20 rebounds earlier in the year in a game against one of the top rebounding teams in the league, the Detroit Pistons. Out of all the current players in the league, I can see these players realistically averaging 20/10 next season:

1. Yao Ming
2. Dirk Nowitzki
3. Elton Brand
4. Tim Duncan
5. Kevin Garnett
6. Jermaine O'Neal
7. Chris Bosh
8. Shawn Marion
9. Chris Webber
10. Amare Stoudemire
11. Dwight Howard
12. Zach Randolph
13. Pau Gasol
14. Rasheed Wallace
15. Antawn Jamison

Its highly unlikely that all these players will achieve this mark, but out of the 6 or so players that will, I think Antawn Jamison will most likely be one of them. Thats a pretty elite class, and still Antawn Jamison is an afterthought

[Indy]

Brand finishes what the guards set up

I completely disagree. Brand doesn't benifit from his guards any more then any other power forward. In fact, if any team was going to have a dump it in to the post and watch strategy and have it work, it would be the team Brand is on, because he is very effective and extremely smart in the low post. He isn't going to get the ball down low and force anything.

his points are more assisted than Nowtizki's by a good margin.

That doesn't really mean anything at all, just that he makes quicker decisions with the ball, and that's if it is true. I'd like to see a link to that statistic.

[quote="maes"]Passing, i don't think either is amazing at passing to the point it can be called a serious advantage (like for Odom), but stats-wise Dirk does have a fractionally better assist line of 2.8 vs Brand's 2.6.[quote="maes"]

I disagree. Brand is almost as good at passing out of double teams as Chris Webber was in his prime. He has excellent court vision, and can play inside outside with the best of them. Dirk simply cannot do that, and will make more stupid turnovers when pressured.

Keep in mind I'm not bashing Dirk in the least bit. He's a premier player that causes a lot of matchup problems and is definitley a franchise level player. I just think Brand has been overshadowed for his whole career because he played for terrible Chicago teams and now plays for the "other LA team". Not to mention the fact that he isn't flashy or arrogant, he doesn't make headlines.

Very good post flite, you are 100% correct.

[-BHZMAFIA-]

You can't even really put Marion in a list of PF's even though he played there for most of the year. But, of course he would average more ppg and rpg than Gasol, just watch the Suns style of play. Jermaine O'neal isn't near where he use to be and yes I know he has been hurt, but he wasn't more affective than Pau last season IMO. My list would go this way:

1) KG
2) Dirk
3) Amare
4) Duncan
5) Brand
6) Pau
7) Howard
8) Marion (only because he is more of a SF)
9) Kirilenko (only because he hasn't been uninjured in ages)
10) Bosh

I do see Duncan as a PF not a C because San Antonio always brings in C's to play with him. I also see AK more of a PF than a SF although he plays both positions. But that is just my opinion. I really like a PF who hits the boards as much as scores so I move Brand over Pau despite Pau outplaying him in the WC's. It just isn't the same game as the NBA and this list is for NBA players. Bosh shouldn't be ahead of Gasol either because Bosh stats are a little misleading. asol scored 20.4 ppg to Bosh's 22.5. However Gasol averaged 4.6 assists per game compared to Bosh's 2.6. So Gasol accounted for 30 ppg assuming all of his assists only were 2 pt shots (highly unlikely in my opinion). Bosh accounted for 27.7 ppg (again making the same assumption on 2pt goals). Pau shot .02% lower from the field as well. Pretty negligible difference considering the amount of attempts each man had during the season.

Toronto as a team averaged 101.06 ppg. Memphis averaged 92.17. That means Gasol's 30 ppg accounted for 32.55% of the team points per game. Bosh's 27.7 ppg accounted for 27.25% of Toronto's points. A very credible amount for sure but 5.3% less than Gasol. So, who is the better player? I think Pau is in the right spot around 6 or 7 and the reason I put him ahead of Howard was because Howard isnt' fully developed yet and he isn't as dominate as Gasol in games.

[---]

Not to mention the fact that he isn't flashy or arrogant, he doesn't make headlines.

Maybe thats why Antawn isnt mentioned nearly as much as he should be. He plays with fundamentals, doesnt try to amaze, just does his job and does it well. He's never in the media, because he doesnt go out there seeking attention with stupid comments or gaurantees. Hell, I remember ages ago when he had back to back 50 point games and nobody really seemed to give a shit, but if that was someone like LBJ, Wade or Kobe, it would be big news. I think alot of people also forget that he was 17th in 3 pointers made this year, shooting it at almost 40%

EDIT: -BHZMAFIA-, Pau is a great player, it pisses me off how he dominates in international ball, then doesnt really live up to it when the regular season rolls around... I think he is very capable of being a 25/11/6 guy, like a Chris Webber type

[Indy]

Jermaine O'neal isn't near where he use to be and yes I know he has been hurt, but he wasn't more affective than Pau last season IMO.

Come on Mafia, I thought you were smarter then this. Jermaine has been playing injured for two season now. He's had 2 fluke injuries, and at this point he is finally healthy. I really want you to remember saying this because you are going to eat crow this year. Even with his injuries, this season Jermaine just missed putting up 20 and 10 (20 and 9.3) and he shot 47% from the field. He blocked 2 and a half shots per game, and his assist numbers were almost at 3. The season before he averaged 25 points a game!! For a guy who had his 2 worst seasons since becoming a Pacer, those numbers aren't exactly bad.

Jermaine's numbers this year will be around 22 and 9-10.

Pau just had his best season of his career, and his numbers were still worse then JO's in a down year for Jermaine.

Also, Andrei Kirilenko has never played a second of Power Forward in his life, so I don't know why he's on your list.

[J@3]

The biggest problem with Jamison is that he can be really inconsistant, having him on my fantasy team I suffered it first hand. Last season was a decent enough return to form, but if you look at his game log he was up and down for large chunks of the year. Also since he plays 2nd fiddle to Gilbert Arenas it'd detract from his headlines a bit.

[Keo]

My top 10:

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Elton Brand
5. Chris Bosh
6. Shawn Marion
7. Pau Gasol
8. Chris Webber
9. Dwight Howard
10. Antawn Jamison

Matt, Rasheed is easily better than Webber? Rasheed's 15 PPG, 6.8 RPG, 2.3 APG and bad temper isn't really comparable to Webber's 20/10 and great passing in the post. Webber is also more clutch and much more valuable to his team while Rasheed is usually in the shadow of Billups, Hamilton and Prince. Webber was much better than Sheed when they were in the West (Portland and Sacramento) and he's still better now in the East.

[Indy]

Rasheed is a million times better then Webber even with his sometimes bad shot selection.

Stats do not tell the story with Webber, if he was on a team like Detroit instead of Rasheed he'd put up 12-15 points a game, and they would not be as good as they are with Rasheed.

Webber only puts up his points because they have nobody else to score the basketball in Philly.

Rasheed is one of the top 5 post defenders in the NBA, Ben Wallace is not going to have the luxury of having a great one on one post defender to do all the dirty work for him in Chicago and he'll pay the price for it. Rasheed always guards the other teams best post scorer.

[---]

The biggest problem with Jamison is that he can be really inconsistant, having him on my fantasy team I suffered it first hand.

Yea I agree with you there, but when he was with Golden State after his rookie year, he was really consistant. Im thinking it may be possible that Jamison is one of those players who takes a long time to adjust? I know he was alright in Dallas, but he was playing for 3 different teams over 3 years, and that could be a contributing factor. We'll see anyways...

6.8 RPG

Most likely courtesy of that other Wallace

[Keo]

Webber only puts up his points because they have nobody else to score the basketball in Philly.

What about AI putting up over 30 PPG, and taking so many shots each game? Webber put up over over 21 PPG in 2005 with Sacramento before he came to Philly so there was nobody in Sacramento that could score either? What about Bibby, Peja, or Mobley? I didn't say Webber was better than Wallace just because of stats either, but if you do look at them, they're not even nearly comparable. So I really don't see how one can think Wallace is a "million times" better than Webber. Webber has much more value and skill. He can really be a factor in a game, he already showed that last year. Wallace..not so much. Other than good defense in the post, shooting wide open three's and occasionally getting in the post offensively, Wallace doesn't match up to what Webber can do.