Brown done in NY?

[Fenix]

Brown Done In New York?
14th May, 2006 - 3:25 am

ESPN - Is Larry Brown done in New York?

According to a report by ESPN, Brown's dream job with the New York Knicks could end after only one season.

ESPN, citing a report which will appear in Sunday's edition of the New York Daily News, reports that Madison Square Garden chairman James Dolan is considering buying out the final four years of the coach's contract at a huge cost of at least $40 million.

One published report indicated Knicks president Isiah Thomas was in line to replace Brown as head coach, the newspaper said, but the team would not confirm nor deny it.

Brown, who led the Knicks to a 23-59 season, has indicated that he will not resign.

If that's true, it is only another waste of Knicks' money, but a good move nonethless. Larry Brown is not the coach Knicks currently need. They would need someone with patience but discipline who could develop and motivate Knicks' young players. Is Isiah that guy? I don't think so. Although the win/lose ratio says otherwise, he was a bad coach in Indiana and would fit even worse on this team which has a lot less chemistry than he Pacers' team.

[Matthew]

The knicks problems do not lie with larry brown. The problems are players who cry, bitch and moan, players who think they are gods gift to basketball, and cant understand the way they are playing is destructive not just to the knicks, but fans of the nba in general.

[Laxation]

It would make so much more sence to fire Thomas, and then get a gm who can change their team to fit Brown, rather than fire Brown. At least in Brown they get a good coach... No point getting rid of what is good in order to keep the shit

[Dramacydal]

I also think you can't blame Coach Brown for the Knicks' misery. I mean look at what Brown achieved in the last few years, look at what he did with my Sixers and what he did with Detroit. The main problem is the attitude that some players on the Knicks roster have, which is a disgrace to basketball.

[[L3]1101]

I agree, the problem is not Brown, but the players and Thomas. The Knicks have too many underachieving players and a GM that loves under achievers. It's probably easier and cheaper to trade away some of the players than get, probably less talent in return, someone who's a team player and a most important of all a leader. There are a lot of teams that are still interested in Francis and Marbury, so i suggest trade them, and add players like Taylor, Malik Rose, and James in the deal.
I'm really surprised that the owner is STILL considering to do everything EXCEPT firing Thomas.

[frenchy]

fire brown and thomas
hire adelman

[Laxation]

For the sake of argument, here is a good article about why he should be fired:

When it comes to the Knicks, I have always been the irrevocable optimist. I put a positive spin on every transaction no matter how senseless it might have been in reality, I remind myself of the on-court chemistry in a positive two minute stretch of a blowout loss, and I find possible reasons why the team might be better in the future. At this point at the end of this frustrating season I find myself all out of positive spin. Save for a few late season Jamal Crawford buzzer beaters, this Knicks team looked like it would have set the franchise mark in futility, but unlike the dark years of the mid-80s, there isn’t a twenty year old Patrick Ewing waiting in the wings.

The Knicks’ rebuilding process has taken a giant step backwards this season. If I had glimpsed into the future this past summer and seen the team’s record at 23-59, I would have been shocked. Hell, after the six-game win streak in January that had all of New York thinking first-round upset, I didn’t think it was fathomable that the team would plunge so deeply thereafter.

It’s a little pathetic that I am longing for the good old days of January 2006, where Stephon Marbury was ‘Starbury,’ Eddy Curry was ‘Baby Shaq,’ Jamal Crawford was a Sixth Man of the Year Candidate, and Channing Frye, Nate Robinson, and David Lee made Isiah Thomas look like the Billy Beane of the NBA draft. I find myself asking why that six game stretch was so different from the rest of the season? I have to believe it’s that Larry Brown was finally playing a set rotation, and it was the right players! Here lies the real shame of this wasted season, that I genuinely think it could have been avoided. I can tolerate the losing; after all this was the fifth straight year with a losing record, but I cannot stand the obvious detrimental coaching decisions that ‘legendary’ coach Larry Brown has made since day one.

This past off-season I believed Larry Brown was the best thing that could have happened to a young talented Knick team that just needed to find an identity. Instead Larry Brown has given this team Multiple Personality Disorder with the games he has been playing all season. He initially stated that the first twenty games would be a test run of lineup experimentations and unusual rotations. While it pained me to watch players like Matt Barnes and Malik Rose take time away from others younger, athletic, and talented rode the bench, I reasoned that Brown would eventually settle on a lineup and make a push for the playoffs. A record setting forty-two starting lineups later, I am amazed at how poor of a coaching job Brown has done. He has started players in their hometowns like a middle-school ‘B’ team, benched players who showed heart and energy in favor of overpaid veterans, and embarrassed himself with his constant whining to the media. At this point Brown has me questioning his ‘thirty year career’ which he so proudly decided to compare to Stephon Marbury’s, igniting an embarrassing media feud.

I don’t want to come across as another fan/writer who thinks he knows so much more than the coach, but is it really even questionable whether Channing Frye should have been playing over Mo Taylor all season? That David Lee should have been playing over Malik Rose? That Jerome James never should have taken off his warm-ups this year? Several times this season Brown has claimed that he would finally settle on a rotation, or that he would start playing the younger players more minutes, but then the next game eleven out of twelve players will see playing time before the end of the first quarter.

I distinctly remember ESPN analyst Greg Anthony describing Isiah’s signing of Larry Brown being good for ten more wins. This season he has single-handedly LOST over ten games; one example being the third game of the season. After the Knicks started 0-2, they found themselves down double digits to the Golden State Warriors at home when Brown inserted the ‘youngins’ into the game; Trevor Ariza, Channing Frye, David Lee, Jamal Crawford, and Nate Robinson. This energetic and passionate squad erased the deficit and had Madison Square Garden rocking. After a time out late in the fourth quarter, Brown pulled the team and reinserted among others, Antonio Davis and Malik Rose, as the Knicks squandered the lead and lost 83-81. After the game Brown said ''It's going to take some time. We're trying to figure out who can play and who can help us.'' One would have hoped that game provided some serious evidence.

I understand the reluctance of an experienced coach to bench his veterans in favor of rookies, but as the season bore on and the Knicks’ playoff chances diminished, wouldn’t it have been beneficial to their development had they been playing more? Channing Frye surprised everyone in the league with his play the first few months of the season, but his play since then has ushered in references to the ‘rookie wall.’ Frye didn’t hit any wall other than Larry Brown, who relegated the star rookie to less than twenty minutes a game. David Lee went from a starter during the celebrated win streak to the inactive list for no apparent reason. Wasn’t he a ‘Larry Brown guy’ who hustled for rebounds and played tough defense? The same could be said for Nate Robinson, and Trevor Ariza, who Brown pushed out the door, getting rid of one of the only true role-players on the roster.

If I sound confused when describing some of the general trends of the season, it is because there seems to be no common sense or logic behind them. Brown’s constant altering of the rotation, his random assignments to the inactive list, barrage of insults towards his players in the media, and preaches for specific players to be brought in have destroyed all morale in the locker room. I almost feel proud of the Knicks players when they show emotion on the court, or when the camera flashes to the bench players (whoever they might be that game) pumping their fists after one of their teammates makes a good play. Lucky for the players, and thank god for the fans, this season is over and most likely many of them will be shipped out, away from Brown’s mind games.

Perhaps next year Brown will have players he can actually work with. Perhaps he will come out of training camp with a rotation of seven or eight that he will stick with for a season. Perhaps I just found a little more of that optimistic spin.

http://www.realgm.com/src_twoplusthefou ... do_for_us/

[Buckley]

Nice read.....the knicks simply have too many egos on this team...also, maybe the least lack of chemistry in the whole league, maybe because they had like 40 something different starting lineups.

i think any coach would struggle to make this team win 35 games.

[Mayerhendrix]

The knicks problems do not lie with larry brown. The problems are players who cry, bitch and moan, players who think they are gods gift to basketball, and cant understand the way they are playing is destructive not just to the knicks, but fans of the nba in general.

But Larry Brown cries, bitches, and moans about the players too. His war against Stephon, Nate Robinson, and then playing only the younger guys near the end of the season didn't help.

[Jackal]

Who wouldn't cry, bitch & moan about Stephon Marbury? If Marbury had a shred of decency in him, he'd actually listen to his coach, as hard headed as Iverson was, the respect he had for Brown was evident.

[Mayerhendrix]

Yeah, but it wasn't only Marbury. Stephon made direct complaints against Nate Robinson's showboating and then in mid March he refused to play the veterans for the majority of the game. When the ship's sinking, you don't punch more holes in the hull and take on more water. Eventually, it's necessary to build a compromise rather than think that by attacking players publicly you can "build character".

[Indy]

Lemme tell you something about having Isiah Thomas as the coach of your basketball team: It is horrible.

Knicks fans are in for even worse seasons then this past one if Isiah is at the helm. I'm starting to feel bad for Knick fans. Wait, no I'm not.

[Matt]

NY should not build a team around Brown.....he's a nomad and he won't finish out his contract. Plus his health problems make him unreliable.

[Axel]

NY should not build a team around Brown.....he's a nomad and he won't finish out his contract. Plus his health problems make him unreliable.

I disagree completely. As a Pistons fan you should know that he makes teams better, and he set up a great defense for Flip Saunders to improve upon on the offensive end. Even if he doesn't finish his contract he would make the team better (assuming they got rid of some of the current egos) and set it up for future success.

Dolan should have figured it out by now that Isaiah Thomas is the root of many of the problems on the team. Just ask Bulls fans....

[Anthony15]

Its really not his problem that Isiah got all this shit like Rose, Marbury, James to work with. Those guys dont try a lot, why shud Brown?

[Matthew]

Who wouldn't cry, bitch & moan about Stephon Marbury? If Marbury had a shred of decency in him, he'd actually listen to his coach, as hard headed as Iverson was, the respect he had for Brown was evident.

Marbury actually tried to carry New York last season, within the confines of what Larry Brown wanted. He wasn't the problem.

But Larry Brown cries, bitches, and moans about the players too. His war against Stephon, Nate Robinson, and then playing only the younger guys near the end of the season didn't help.

It comes down to this, who is more right? Brown, or the players? Whcih way has worked before? It's larry brown's way. Has Steve Francis, Crawford, Richardson, Eddy Curry, or Jalen Rose ever really been succesfull im aware of Rose going to the finals, but it wasn't like he led them there.)

I'm just glad I dont live in New York or I'd be considering going to Net games.

[Sauru]

the knicks are full of over paid egotistical losers, they are basically uncoachable. you can go and hire anyone you want and pay them anything they demand and you will still be watching the final 16 teams play for the prize.

[Jeffx]

the knicks are full of over paid egotistical losers, they are basically uncoachable. you can go and hire anyone you want and pay them anything they demand and you will still be watching the final 16 teams play for the prize.

Red Holtzman and Red Auerbach COMBINED couldn't coach these pathetic losers. But in Dolan's dead-brain, it's Brown's fault, not Isiah's. Why doesn't Dolan ask Isiah these two questions;

1) Why did you give $29m of my money to Jerome James?

2) Chicago dumped fat, lazy, no-heart Eddy Curry on us, they made the playoffs, and they have our pick. What were you thinking?

I'm no Brown fan, but how the f--- does Dolan put this mess on him and not Isiah? You see why true Knick fans are so frustrated? The owner doesn't get it!

[Laker Socks]

im aware of Rose going to the finals, but it wasn't like he led them there

I dont mean to nitpick but, Jalen Rose struggled under Brown in Indiana because Brown did not know how to use Jalen Rose and insisted Rose play "the right way"

Then, Larry Bird replaces Brown and Jalen Rose suddenly becomes a productive player.

I really think it's Larry Brown is to blame. So Stephon is apparently uncoachable, people seem to forget that Steph can lead his team to the playoffs when given the freedom.

Eddy Curry? He was in the playoffs last season.

Quentin? Conference finals last season.

Larry Brown is overrated as hell, people seem to forget he only has 1 championship ring and he inherited a very good pistons team from Rick Carlisle. How far did the pistons go the year before Brown took over?

[Andrew]

If anyone's to be made a scapegoat for the Knicks' 2006 season it should be Isiah Thomas. While I still think Layden did a worse job overall because he was in the position longer and made moves that didn't even look good on paper, Thomas has still done his damage and replacing him with someone more interested in putting together a team that works rather than wheeling and dealing and stockpiling talent wouldn't yield immediate results but would be in the team's best interest.

That said, I don't think Larry Brown can be spared from blame completely for what happened with the Knicks this year. As that article pointed out, his rotations lacked consistency, he feuded with players through the media, refused to smooth things over with his players (I still think the Ariza incident is an example of very poor coaching) and stuck to his philosophy to the point it got in the way of reasonable alternatives (like letting the young players off the bench when they're clicking). Brown's resume surely should earn him some extra time but he still has to accept some responsibility for the Knicks' record.

[Jeffx]

If anyone's to be made a scapegoat for the Knicks' 2006 season it should be Isiah Thomas. While I still think Layden did a worse job overall because he was in the position longer and made moves that didn't even look good on paper, Thomas has still done his damage and replacing him with someone more interested in putting together a team that works rather than wheeling and dealing and stockpiling talent wouldn't yield immediate results but would be in the team's best interest.

Andrew, it starts with the owner. Nothing will change as long as Dolan feels Isiah is doing a great job. If Isiah coaches the team and they win 30 games, Dolan will think they're making progress. It's over for us, man.

I've turned my back on this team...call me when Dolan fires Isiah, Garden president Steve Mills and the Knicks are a 50-55 win team again. Spare me this B.S. of squeezing out 35 wins, making the playoffs as an 8th seed, and getting swept in the first round. Break it down and rebuild.

[Fenix]

I don't get all this with NY's logic of 'not rebuilding'. Where is this mentality coming from? Wait, you'd rather suck with prospects of being above average at best and be the most expensive team in league history or is sucking for a while and sucking cheap a more attractive possibility? Because I think it is. You can't tell me that people of NY would rather see Marbury, Francis and Curry losing 60 games every year than losing 60 games without them? That there wouldn't be people in the stands? I mean, this is NY we are talking about here. If the attendance drops for 10%, you'd still had to spend 80 million in payroll less so you would still make a lot more money than you do now. The only logical answer is that Dolan is the worst businessman in the world. But how the hell did he get all that money to actually own the Knicks? Did his father left him a pile of cash or what? I respect the Knicks, the city of NY, but this team, their ownership and staff have become a disgrace to the NBA.

Slightly off topic, but it's such a stupid news that it hardly deserves its own thread:

Knicks May Pursue Deal For Gordon
15th May, 2006 - 6:17 am

New York Post - The New York Bulls?

According to the New York Post, the Bulls and Knicks recently held trade discussions focusing on Ben Gordon.

New York has acquired young talents Jamal Crawford and Eddy Curry from Chicago the last two offseasons, the latter giving the Bulls the Knicks' unprotected lottery pick this year, a pick which is top-5 guaranteed and has the second best chance of becoming the first overall selection.

According to sources in Chicago and a source close to Gordon, the Knicks were interested in acquiring Gordon in exchange for, "one of the Knicks elite guards" and a No. 1 pick in next year's draft.

The New York Post yesterday reported that the Knicks are looking into buying out coach Larry Brown and replacing him with GM Isiah Thomas, so any talks are in limbo.

While Gordon is happy in Chicago, the New York Post states that the source in Chicago pointed out that Gordon is better suited to playing the point, and Kirk Hinrich seems entrenched as the starting point guard.

According to published reports the Bulls have out feelers to gauge interest in Gordon.

If Paxson actually had a talk with Thomas, it was probably in the lines of Gordon and Chandler for Frye, 2007 pick (so they would have both their own and Knicks') and an expiring contract (Rose?). And as much as we know Thomas, he would probably throw in Lee and all of the NY's draft picks from 2008 to 2030. (Actually, that still doesn't sound good enough for Chicago. They can get a lot more for Gordon and Chandler in seperate deals and I really don't see the point in helping the NY out, considering Chicago owns the right to swap picks next year.)

[Jeffx]

I don't get all this with NY's logic of 'not rebuilding'. Where is this mentality coming from? Wait, you'd rather suck with prospects of being above average at best and be the most expensive team in league history or is sucking for a while and sucking cheap a more attractive possibility? Because I think it is. You can't tell me that people of NY would rather see Marbury, Francis and Curry losing 60 games every year than losing 60 games without them? That there wouldn't be people in the stands? I mean, this is NY we are talking about here. If the attendance drops for 10%, you'd still had to spend 80 million in payroll less so you would still make a lot more money than you do now. The only logical answer is that Dolan is the worst businessman in the world. But how the hell did he get all that money to actually own the Knicks? Did his father left him a pile of cash or what? I respect the Knicks, the city of NY, but this team, their ownership and staff have become a disgrace to the NBA.

It's not just brain-dead Dolan, Vank. Knick management has had this "can't rebuild in NY" mentality for the past 30 years. They got away with it during the Ewing era because Pat was a franchise player you could build around. The only way out of this mess is fire everybody, tear the team apart and start fresh. It'll never happen with Dolan in charge.

[jerry]

Trade Stephon Marbury for someone like Baron Davis or Steve Nash or Gilbert Arenas or whoever you can find that is good. Brown and Marbury feud is the main reason knicks arent good, as marbury is the star player. Or you can just trade marbury for first round draft and somebody OK because knicks cap room wow its like negative 40million or something

[Its_asdf]

Stephon Marbury's value is probably at its lowest right now after his poor stats and his squabbles with Larry, so I doubt he'll be traded that easily.