Dwyane Wade owns Steve Francis...

[fgrep15]

In the 4 games Shaq has been out, Wade's averaged 28 points | 8.5 assists | 4.0 rebounds | 7.3 - 9.5 FT attempts | 56.9% FG | 2.75 steals, though also 4.8 turnovers, but Stan won't have too many complaints considering the rest of his production.

Now in addition to that, he's had 2 wins vs the Magic, a loss to the Bulls by 4, and a loss on a missed last second shot attempt to the Pacers. This is with a Heat team that has minimal depth, and is focused on really only 2 players, pretty impressive indeed.

Francis just can't hang, Wade is more athletic, doesn't jump like Francis, though he can also get up there, but he's stronger, quicker, and a better all-round player.

Francis in the 2 games:
5-16 FG | 22 points | 7 assists | 5 turnovers
5-14 FG | 16 points | 4 assists | 3 turnovers
___
33.3% FG | 19.5 points | 5.5 assists | 4 turnovers

Wade: 67.8% FG | 26.5 points | 7.5 assists | 7.5 - 9.5 FT | 5 turnovers

Also add Wade shutting him down defensively down the stretch, and stripping the ball from Francis when he thought he had a breakaway dunk, poor guy.

Also this might quiet those that use the Wade is only better because he's playing with Shaq excuse, or that he's not as capable a player without Shaq, this just shows how good the guy really is. Now let's hope Shaq comes back soon so the Heat don't get more losses, because without him they're at best a .500 team.

[iKe7in]

I don't see your point in all this. I think everyone agrees that Wade is already better than Francis. But who really cares how he beat Francis in those two games. It's not like the two teams will be meeting in the playoffs. And by showing these stats, its basically showed that the only teams the Heat can beat without Shaq are non playoff contenders like Orlando. Out of the four games you mentioned there, the Heat were only .500.

Shaq makes the Heat, not Wade. Even without Wade, the Heat would still be a top team in the East, but without Shaq, they probably miss the playoffs or barely get in.

A few years down the line, Wade may be a superstar in the league, and be able to carry a team into contention like Iverson or LeBron, but not yet. For the moment, he's running on Diesel fuel.

[Matthew]

His point was to show the difference in the players: Its basically a Wade lovefest, and he's allowed to do that.

Now back on topic.

Wade has dominated Francis, but 2 games really doesnt mean you "own someone". Francis needs a fair few fg opportunites to be effective, and Grant Hill has been creating for himself alot than when they had mobley. With Mobley, Hill was creating for those two, but now he needs to score more, which he is doing, but it almost shuts francis out of the offense.

But I will agree, wade is the better overall player. No question. I just think its a bit harsh to say he owns francis after 2 games.

[whlee75]

It's not like the two teams will be meeting in the playoffs.

The Heat and the Magic are #1 and #7 respectively in the eastern conference right now so I don't see why they will not meet in the playoffs.

Shaq makes the Heat, not Wade. Even without Wade, the Heat would still be a top team in the East, but without Shaq, they probably miss the playoffs or barely get in.

I somewhat agree with this. But I also think that Wade is as important a key player on the Heat team as Shaq is considering Wade is a smarter, more all-around player whose playing style is different than that of Francis or Kobe. To say Miami is Shaq's team and dismiss what Wade has done for them is just not fair to him. Heat without Shaq or Heat without Wade would go no further than second round of the playoffs.

A few years down the line, Wade may be a superstar in the league, and be able to carry a team into contention like Iverson or LeBron, but not yet. For the moment, he's running on Diesel fuel.

I agree with this.

[iKe7in]

I checked to see what happened in other MIA-ORL games this season and here's what I found.

Game 1: Preseason: Francis 17pts, 6reb, 8 ast - Wade 18pts, 3reb, 5ast, 8 to
Game 2: Preseason: Francis 22pts, 2reb, 5 ast - Wade 18pts, 1reb, 8ast
Game 3: Francis: 31pts, 4reb, 3ast - Wade 22pts, 4reb, 5ast
Game 4: Francis 16pts, 4reb, 3ast - Wade 25pts, 3reb, 4ast
Game 5: Francis 22pts, 2reb, 7ast - Wade 28pts, 3red, 11ast

Averages: Francis 21.6ppg, 4.2rpg, 5.2apg - Wade 22.2ppg, 2.8rpg, 6.8apg

After looking at this, it's not so clear cut of who the better player is right now. Wade certainly hasn't 'owned' Francis this year. If Francis had Shaq, he could probably make up that extra 1.6 apg, and if Wade didn't have Shaq, he could probably make up that 1.6 rpg.

Looking at the overall season stats for the two,

Wade narrowly beats Steve in ppg, Steve narrowly beats Wade in rpg, Wade barely beats Steve in apg and spg, Wade beats Steve in bpg. In percentages, Wade beats Steve in FGP by about .060%, but Steve beats Wade in FTP by about .070%, and in 3P% by about .050%. Wade averages about 2mpg more as well.

Looking at these stats, its tought o make an argument for either as being the better player at this point. Switch their teams and they probably still average the same, and their respective teams have similar records as they do now. I think everyone knows that in a few years, Wade will most likely be the clearcut better player, barring anymore ankle injuries, but as of now, they are very similar players, who both play similar styles of game.

[Jona]

Summing it up, Flash is better than Francis because of the fact that he is a HEAT player.

[PiksS]

Heat > Magic,so Wade > Francis,but still i like Francis more than Wade

[The GOAT]

By that logic, Detriot > Cleveland therefore Rip > LeBron.

[Mikki]

By that logic, Detriot > Cleveland therefore Rip > LeBron.

meaning, Detroit (2004) > LA (2004) therefore Ben > Shaq?

[The GOAT]

And Detroit 2004 >Indiana 2004 so Prince > Artest.
You could go on and on with these examples, but the point is you shouldn't use that logic.

[PiksS]

And Detroit 2004 >Indiana 2004 so Prince > Artest.
You could go on and on with these examples, but the point is you shouldn't use that logic.

nio the point is that i`m stupid

[The GOAT]

If you want to look at it that way sure

[PiksS]

^ look i even spelled wrong ''no''

[Indy]

wow i didnt realize steve francis avereaged almost 7 boards a game, thats impressive.

if i was choosing someone to build a team around i would definnitley take wade over francis anyday. i love francis, but wade is a better defender and a more clutch player imo.

[The GOAT]

Plus he's younger.

[Sauru]

francis is one of those players i just dont like. not sure i ever will like him. ever since that draft day crap he has been on the bottom of my list of fav players.

[Colin]

By that logic, Detriot > Cleveland therefore Rip > LeBron.

No, if two players have two similar playing styles and put up similar stats, the next place to turn to for whose better is team record. Who has their team playing better.

[The GOAT]

meaning, Detroit (2004) > LA (2004) therefore Ben > Shaq?

They have similar playing styles and by no means is Ben better than Shaq.

[fgrep15]

Wade narrowly beats Steve in ppg, Steve narrowly beats Wade in rpg, Wade barely beats Steve in apg and spg, Wade beats Steve in bpg. In percentages, Wade beats Steve in FGP by about .060%, but Steve beats Wade in FTP by about .070%, and in 3P% by about .050%. Wade averages about 2mpg more as well.

Looking at these stats, its tought o make an argument for either as being the better player at this point. Switch their teams and they probably still average the same, and their respective teams have similar records as they do now. I think everyone knows that in a few years, Wade will most likely be the clearcut better player, barring anymore ankle injuries, but as of now, they are very similar players, who both play similar styles of game.

Their's also defense, Wade is a much better defender than Francis, Francis has actually been a very weak defender.

Using own is just for effect, no need to have a hissy fit

[iKe7in]

Uhhh, there was no hissy fit there, just a counter point to your argument. The only area Wade seems to be a better defender in is shot blocking. Unless we actually went through game by game of what each guys opponent scored, its tough to make a case for one being a much better defender. From games I've seen, it also seems like Orlando plays more of a team defense with more zone coverage than Miami, so Francis doesn't exactly have to be a great defender.

[#12]

I think everyone agrees Dwayne Wade is better then Steve Francis, I dont know why you are making this thread

[fgrep15]

Uhhh, there was no hissy fit there, just a counter point to your argument. The only area Wade seems to be a better defender in is shot blocking. Unless we actually went through game by game of what each guys opponent scored, its tough to make a case for one being a much better defender. From games I've seen, it also seems like Orlando plays more of a team defense with more zone coverage than Miami, so Francis doesn't exactly have to be a great defender.

Francis gives up an opponent per of 16.9, the league average is about 15.0, so that's less than average. He also gives up an opponent eFG% of 48.5%, and 21.3 points per 48 minutes.

Wade gives up an opponent per of 13.4, 45.8% eFG, and 18.4 points per 48 minutes. That would equate to being a very good defender.

I think everyone agrees Dwayne Wade is better then Steve Francis, I dont know why you are making this thread

His point was to show the difference in the players: Its basically a Wade lovefest, and he's allowed to do that

[air gordon]

just watch one 1 quarter of each and you'll see the difference in defensive play & effort

[fgrep15]

Definately, with Francis' athletic ability you'd expect him to be a good defender, but he really doesn't put the effort, same with Marbury, but Marbury isn't as athletic as he is, but it happens.

[Ruff Ryder]

Wow, look at Wade's block numbers. Over 1 block a game, this coming from a 6'4 guard. Pretty impressive.