.

[hmm]

.

[Ben-le-ouf]

I would not like Kobe to leave the Lakers...
They have made a dynasty and they have already won three titles.. They will be remembered as a terrible team in NBA history... and they still can get other rings in the future years. It would be such a waste!

And I'm not sure this deal will help one of these teams.

[j.23]

i dont know if you watched the halftime report w/ kenny charles and ernie last night during the rockets-lakers game.. but kenny made a really good point.. why would kobe even want to leave the lakers? he has the luxury playing with shaq.. kobe doesn't get doubled teamed often on the lakers because of him.. he can do whatever he wants and have fun on offense.. if he moved to phoenix or any other time for that matter, he'll definately be the focal point of the offense and he'll probably get doubled everytime he touches the ball.. don't look for kobe to leave the lakers anytime soon

[Amphatoast]

i dont know if you watched the halftime report w/ kenny charles and ernie last night during the rockets-lakers game.. but kenny made a really good point.. why would kobe even want to leave the lakers? he has the luxury playing with shaq.. kobe doesn't get doubled teamed often on the lakers because of him.. he can do whatever he wants and have fun on offense.. if he moved to phoenix or any other time for that matter, he'll definately be the focal point of the offense and he'll probably get doubled everytime he touches the ball.. don't look for kobe to leave the lakers anytime soon

I think Kobe wants to prove that he can lead a team without Shaq. Sure he will get double teamed, but which great player doesn't? Right now a lot of Kobe haters keep saying Kobe is just feeding off of Shaq which maybe true at times, but isn't all the time.
Basically Kobe wants to be the franchise player and no arguement over it. Right now you can argue why Shaq should be there franchise player, but go somewhere like to the Clippers and turn that shitty franchise around will show everyone that you area franchise player and the best in the game. He got his rings already, now he wants to show his leadership.

[magius]

i dont know if you watched the halftime report w/ kenny charles and ernie last night during the rockets-lakers game.. but kenny made a really good point.. why would kobe even want to leave the lakers? he has the luxury playing with shaq.. kobe doesn't get doubled teamed often on the lakers because of him.. he can do whatever he wants and have fun on offense.. if he moved to phoenix or any other time for that matter, he'll definately be the focal point of the offense and he'll probably get doubled everytime he touches the ball.. don't look for kobe to leave the lakers anytime soon

I think Kobe wants to prove that he can lead a team without Shaq. Sure he will get double teamed, but which great player doesn't? Right now a lot of Kobe haters keep saying Kobe is just feeding off of Shaq which maybe true at times, but isn't all the time.
Basically Kobe wants to be the franchise player and no arguement over it. Right now you can argue why Shaq should be there franchise player, but go somewhere like to the Clippers and turn that shitty franchise around will show everyone that you area franchise player and the best in the game. He got his rings already, now he wants to show his leadership.

or all his teammates just dislike him.

kobe haters? please. its called being realistic. not everybody has a guy who averages 27 and 12 and gets doubled automatically and passes well out of the double. the only time kobe doesnt feed off shaq is when shaqs injured-- its a lot easier to guard somebody when he's the main defensive priority. if you seriously think that everytime shaq is on the floor kobe doesnt benefit then so be it. bottom line -- whenever shaq is on the floor kobe benefits from him whether he touches it or not....ALL the time. when shaqs not playing the lakers are a 500 team (before payton malone).

like i said in the kobe thread...... you dont win a championship with a guard unless that guards name is michael jordan (who himself had a good supporting cast). kobe isnt half mj.

[Fresh8]

I understand thjat Kobe wants to prove he can be a franchise player...i guess u, magnius, cant say Kobe isnt half mj... until Kobe is in a mj like situation.

plus the Clippers players have expressed interest in playing with Kobe... just i dont know wat their reaction will be if Kobe hogs the ball...

[Nick]

There's no way Lakers would trade Kobe for Tmac.

[Boyk]

kobe haters? please. its called being realistic. not everybody has a guy who averages 27 and 12 and gets doubled automatically and passes well out of the double. the only time kobe doesnt feed off shaq is when shaqs injured-- its a lot easier to guard somebody when he's the main defensive priority. if you seriously think that everytime shaq is on the floor kobe doesnt benefit then so be it. bottom line -- whenever shaq is on the floor kobe benefits from him whether he touches it or not....ALL the time. when shaqs not playing the lakers are a 500 team (before payton malone).

And also Vice-Versa.
at least now these days, shaq aint nowhere near the player he was 2 years ago!
nowhere near

[Swoosh]

I have my doubts on shaq being the franchise player right now, i know the arguments that shaq is a presence and needs to get double-teamed, but when's the last time this guy scored 30pts like 5 outta 10 contest?
And all that sh*t about shaq saving energy, he appears to still be savind some in the playoffs. Shaq just ain't this dominant anymore, he still has the potential and ability but i think he just doesn't see a real challenge in the game no more.
More and more articles are written about how the lakers need kobe and how they cant win without them, i know the lakers cant win without shaq, but they need kobe as much imho. I believed them to be quite equal in status, but with shaq's play of late and kobe's play, i'm leaning toward thinking kobe is the more important player to the team (and i believemyself to be a kobe-hater, but just because i dont like him doesnt mean i respect his game).
But knowing my luck, shaq will probably explode against the spurs and average something like 40pts 20rebs and 5asts

[Ben-le-ouf]

at least now these days, shaq aint nowhere near the player he was 2 years ago!

And all that sh*t about shaq saving energy, he appears to still be savind some in the playoffs. Shaq just ain't this dominant anymore, he still has the potential and ability but i think he just doesn't see a real challenge in the game no more.

Like Swoosh and Laddas, I think that Shaq's influence on the game has diminished for 2-3 years.
But I also think Shaq was disturbed by Yao Ming, that's why he did not score very much.

[air gordon]

i think houston's defense deserves some credit here. you have to factor in also that shaq injuries are bothering him more then he is letting on and perhaps he's developed a mental block since his ft shooting % has hit the bottom of the ocean

[Swoosh]

Of course houston deserves credit and the injuries might play a bigger role then everyone knows(shaq doesnt really complain bout that stuff that much). But he used to dominate seemingly at will while now he has trouble turning it on

[magius]

kobe as valuable as shaq? what drug are you on? can i have some?

a fourth of a normal shaq is more valuable than kobe. injuries were probably a factor in shaq having 'below normal' numbers, but maybe he's also more willing to give up the ball so that malone and payton can get involved (both of which who came because of shaq). problem is kobe keeps shooting it

do you seriously think jackson will stay if shaq leaves? if shaq leaves payton will leave and malone will probably retire. i dont care if you only have shaq for three more years, thats three more years of title contention compared to zero. does anybody really believe a kobe led laker team can challenge san antonio? or a kobe led clipper team? please. they couldnt even chip sacramento. kg cant do it alone and he's twice kobe, what makes you think kobe can? there are only two players who can make a team a championship contender by themselves -- shaq and duncan. you know what happens when a guard is your focal point? philadelphia happens. orlando happens. boston happens. im not saying your going to suck -- its an anamoly they (magic,sixers) arent in the playoffs...... a superstar guard-led team will probaly make the playoffs, but what will they do once they get there? best they can hope for is to not face a big man led team in the first round.

i said it before and ill say it again mjs twice (and thats being pessimistic. its more like quadruple or quintruple) kobe and he had pip, rodman, kukoc -- anyone willing to bet kobes going to do it with, um, brand?

you konw what? kobe should leave so i can have the sheer pleasure of watching him embarass himself, it would be a joy. i'd bet my membership on it.

you know why the laker management is trying to show kobe they want him more (if thats what they're REALLY doing)? because they're morons, they're lost without west.

and, come on, who are you going to get to replace shaq? maybe san antonio will trade la duncan for fisher...... shaqs not playing well and he's still around 20 and 12 at 58 fg%, he is irreplacable. no one with a brain is going to give up a half decent big.

[Wall St. Peon]

Considering that Kobe is the one who put the Lakers over the Rockets - Shaq, Malone, and Co. weren't doing shit - I'd say that he's more important than Shaq at this point.

Why? Because he's playing the best ball of his life and he has the most distractions of his life. He can carry teams by himself, and he's unselfish enough to be able to get players who want to play with him (not to say he isn't selfish, but he does pass the ball very well). If he doesn't want to return to LA, I could definately see him somehow ending up in New York...Isiah seems to be getting what he wants, so they could probably swing a deal to replace Allan Houston in the starting lineup with Kobe Bryant...Marbury and Kobe? Now that's a backcourt...

[magius]

really? i dont recall kobe guarding yao ming....... i mustve missed that.

tony parkers playing extremely well too. i guess he's more valuable than tim duncan then.

[Swoosh]

maybe you misunderstood me(actually i meant i didnt make myself quite clear ). You have to look it from more of a team perspective, and you are absolutely right, two players to build a championship team around, shaq and td(and after this playoffs maybe kg ). But do you actually believe that these lakers without kobe can win a title? Shaq doesnt win a title on his own anymore, dont get me wrong, without shaq and with kobe they can't win either, they both need to be on the floor, kobe's role became more important and shaq's (willingly or not) diminished, of course he's a really important player, but speaking of team-status, the lakers can't do this without kobe either, so imo they are kinda equal in this prospect(i never said that if kobe leads a team alone they will win a championship, as far is i know,but my knowledge aint that big , SA is the only team with one superstar to win the title but they are so well coached and have the right complementary players).
I just cant see shaq winning a title with a banged up malone, the glove sitting on the bench and kobe not out there, who's gonna help him? Slava ?!!! Or maybe devean(not that he is bad or sumthing, they are all better then me but u get the point), the lakers need kobe

[Wall St. Peon]

really? i dont recall kobe guarding yao ming....... i mustve missed that.

Yeah, cause I said that...

Kobe scored over 30 points a couple times in the series, no? And when did he score those points? When the Lakers needed it...therefore, he led the Lakers over the Rockets - NOT shaq. Shaq guarded Yao, and Shaq wasn't exactly playing the best in the games that I saw

tony parkers playing extremely well too. i guess he's more valuable than tim duncan then.

Man, don't make up stuff like I said it. It's not a very good way to argue, and that logic wasn't even remotely close to what I said. Former a better agrument than sarcastic remarks lacking basis like those above...

[Alcoholic]

Forgetting about Malone and Payton for the moment, I think Kobe is their go-to guy. I mean, if its a late game situation, and they give the ball to Shaq, you just know that they'll either foul him, or let them hack him up, or call some bs offensive foul. If Shaq is sent to the line, it's not exactly money in the bank. Don't get me wrong, Shaq is a good player, but the way he's treated isn't going to give him a good shot at the game winning bucket. What's he gonna do, argue? Last time he argued about getting no calls he got suspended. If Kobe was given the ball, he is capable of shooting free throws, and in the past, he's proven he can do some good and1 plays, and can often sink the bucket when he's double or possibly triple teamed. And if more than one man is on Kobe, he can pass the ball out to whoever is open, to go for the game winner. Just my 2c.

[Jackal]

First off, Magius

Second, Shane, you make good points. It was Kobe that lifted LA over Houston. But would LA be in the Playoffs playing Houston, if there were no Shaq? Kobe just had to lift them over Houston this time. Without Shaq, he's going to have to do it all, that's the point. Magius doesnt see Kobe doing it alone, and neither do I. Kobe is valuable, no doubt. But using the Houston thing isnt really a good example since Shaq did play a role in it all. Without Shaq, the Lakers would not be in the playoffs. Without Shaq, Malone and Payton wouldnt be in LA, why would they? Remember they said they wanted to play with a team where their chances of winning were the biggest? That's not Kobe's team, it's Shaq's.

You've got a good discussion, but bringing up the Houston match isnt such a good idea since they wouldnt have been there if Shaq wasnt there.

Anyways, I'm eager to see a Kobe led team. Orlando part 2.

[magius]

really? i dont recall kobe guarding yao ming....... i mustve missed that.

Yeah, cause I said that...

Kobe scored over 30 points a couple times in the series, no? And when did he score those points? When the Lakers needed it...therefore, he led the Lakers over the Rockets - NOT shaq. Shaq guarded Yao, and Shaq wasn't exactly playing the best in the games that I saw

tony parkers playing extremely well too. i guess he's more valuable than tim duncan then.

Man, don't make up stuff like I said it. It's not a very good way to argue, and that logic wasn't even remotely close to what I said. Former a better agrument than sarcastic remarks lacking basis like those above...

i didnt say you said it, how am i making it up? nowhere in that sentence is the word 'you' contained. i just wanted to give you some insight of how I personally felt towards people saying kobe is more valuable than shaq -- to me its like saying parker is more valuable than duncan. thats just me though, no need to get angry. it wasnt meant to be sarcastic, its just how i feel, sorry.

kobe scored those points when the lakers needed it, correct. but the lakers wouldnt have the oppurtunity of 'needing it' if shaq hadnt defended yao as well as he did -- making him work on the offense and tired on d. i agree with the people who said kobe is needed, but i dont agree that he is as valuable as shaq because i believe what kobe brings is replacable. i didnt see kobe shutting down francis, i didnt see kobe shutting down mobley, he wasnt forced to work on d and its a two way game. on the other hand, shaqs mere presence down low alters shots and makes people settle for a jumper rather than attack. i couldnt care less if you scored 30 points on under 50% shooting, i'd prefer a 20 point player at 50+% who can alter the game both ways.

the parker duncan example is probably a bad one for people who dont see it like i do, so a closer one would be -- who do you pick? hakeem or drexler?

and swoosh, yeah it'd be hard but okay whats the chance of shaq, malone, payton winning? maybe 20%. now, whats the chance of kobe, slava and fisher winning (because payton and malone will leave once the person who brought them in leaves as well as probably jax)? 0. even if malone and payton stay with kobe it'd rise to maybe 5 or 10. like i said i know they need kobe, but shaq alone in a league in lack of true centres makes a team a contender while kobe doesnt. how can you say they're equally valuable as players? they need each other, but who needs who more? hell, why doesnt shaq leave and go to phoenix and get them some championships? or how about shaq in new york. this league has always been guard rich, guards dont make championships, bigs do. i knew what you meant, but i dont agree that they need each other equally when one is more replacable than the other.

[.]

Without Shaq they wouldnt be in the playoffs? if Shaq, Malone and Payton wouldnt be here this season, LA would have enough money under their salarycap, to sign some good players to build around Kobe, and maybe they would have a good playoff worth team out of that. Lets say if Shaq would have been injured this whole season, and GP and Malone wouldnt be in Los Angeles...ok, then I understand that they might would miss the playoffs, but look at the team besides the big 4: George, Fox, Fisher, Slava, Cook, Walton, Russell, Grant etc. That is not a championship team over there, nor a playoff team. that would be a mission impossible to take this team to the playoffs with 1 superstar as a leader. Maybe they wouldnt make the playoffs without Shaq, but would they make it without Kobe? GP and Malone said that they wanted to be on a team, that has the biggest chance of winning it all? If the Lakers wouldnt have Kobe last year, they would be nowhere, the team would have a loosing record, and Malone and Payton wouldnt sign because they wanted to be on a winning team right?

Like Shane said, where is Shaq where LA is in need of a basket to keep them in the game? I can only think of 1 name on the Lakers squad who has the biggest chance of making that basket out of everybody, and thats not Shaq. Ive heard the argument that the game wouldnt have to be close if it wasnt for Kobe or something...Dont blame it on 1 person, Ive seen countless times that they lossed games because the entire team played bad, and the only time I remember loosing because Kobe would force to much would be against San Antonio, I admitt if he wouldnt focus on 1 on 1 versus Bruce Bowen that time, the Lakers might have won the game.

Kobe was the one who helped the Lakers to get out of the first round, ofcourse he had 2 bad games or something, but he had more good games then bad, and he was way more double teamed then Shaq was that series, so there is no need to bring up the point that Shaq creates open shots for Kobe because I hardly saw it.

Anyways, I'm eager to see a Kobe led team. Orlando part 2.

Tracy McGrady and Kobe Bryant are 2 way different players when you look at their leadership abbility, Imo that is something that Kobe has and McGrady doesnt. Maybe Kobe would have lead them to the playoffs, but hes a Laker for now so I can only say *maybe*, we have to wait untill the older Lakers (Shaq, Malone, GP) are gone to see if he can do it or not, or if he decides to go to another team

shaq hadnt defended yao as well as he did

Malone was on Yao like 40% of the time when both he and Shaq were on the court, so dont give him all the credit for him holding down Yao. Btw, didnt Shaq got in foul trouble early in the game because of Yao?

guards dont make championships, bigs do

What was the name of that guy who played on the Bulls team again with #25 or something......no wait, it was #23?

[magius]

name me 3 players who were available during the free agency period last year that any gm wouldve taken over shaq, malone, and payton.

when malone was on yao it was to push him out of the paint, while shaq was the help defender to alter or block his shot. i dont think it was 40%. if you think shaqs defense and its effect on yao was inconsequential then i guess its just a difference of opinions. houston wins when yao can do what he wants.

kobe has leadership? are you kidding me?

the argument that the game wouldnt be close if it wasnt for kobe is valid. you should dump it in to shaq every time until the last 3 minutes, no exceptions. 58% versus 43%, seriously.

just because shaq doesnt spoon feed kobe easier shots it doesnt mean he's not doing it. shaqs mere presence alters defensive strategy. and who is houston going to double kobe with? which of the three all stars are they are going to leave open?

[Jackal]

Without Shaq they wouldnt be in the playoffs? if Shaq, Malone and Payton wouldnt be here this season, LA would have enough money under their salarycap

I think people should spend some more time reading and comprehending.

Ok, lets do it the way you say. Shaq, Malone & GP arent on the Lakers. LA has money, signs some players. First off, you would have to get another quality superstar kind of player a la Pippen...as has been said before, wing players dont win Championships. Bringing up Michael Jordan is a big no-no. First, Michael Jordan is Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant is just Kobe Bryant. Not Michael Jordan. Second, Michael had pretty damn good players around him, Rodman & Pippen to name a few.

You're implying that with the leftover money from Shaq, Malone & GP..."quality" players would sign with LA? Why? Bryant isnt Jordan...he isnt close to Jordan. Why would those players sign? What do players want to do? Win championships. Ok, lets say Shaq isnt on the Lakers and he's on some team...Utah Jazz. Now, you're a quality free-agent. You're not a superstar but you want what every other player wants...a ring. Now you've got the option to sign with a Kobe led team and a Shaq led team...who would you choose? I think Malone & GP made that descision quite well. It was for O'Neal they came, not Bryant. They could have just as well signed for SA, Sacramento or Dallas for that matter, since money is not the issue. No, they signed with LA, not because of Bryant, dont even make that assumption because that's just being naive or totally blind in Kobe love. It was NOT for Kobe they came, they came for Shaq. If you disagree with this, end of discussion right here.

Second, you bring up Michael Jordan while we're on the subject of Kobe Bryant...dont. Kobe is not Michael, nor do I think he will reach that level, Kobe's good...he's not great. Michael had a Pippen, I dont think Kobe would even get along with his Pip type player. Kobe wants to lead scrubs. Actually Kobe just wants to lead, doesnt make a difference what he's leading as long as the other player isnt a star. Pippen was a star regardless of Michael Jordan, for Kobe to win, he would need a Pippen like player...or in other words...a star. Kobe doesnt want this.

Long story short, Kobe will not lead a team to a championship...and since it's become fashion, I'm willing to bet my membership on it.

As has been said by many, wing players don't win Championships. Michael Jordan is an exception because he's great, Kobe isnt. Michael Jordan was an exception yet he had a star team-mate playing along side him. His team was balanced out and that's what won championships...ofcourse Michael had alot to do with it.

In this day and age, with Tim Duncans, Kevin Garnett's and Shaquille O'Neal's...do you think Kobe would be able to lead a team against these guys? No. If Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, Allen Iverson and Paul Pierce cannot do it, what makes you think Kobe Bryant can? He's the only leader out of all these guys? Or players will magically only want to sign with his team?

Wing players do not win championships, atleast not in this day and age when the game is dominated by big men.

[.]

Ok, lets do it the way you say. Shaq, Malone & GP arent on the Lakers. LA has money, signs some players. First off, you would have to get another quality superstar kind of player a la Pippen...as has been said before, wing players dont win Championships. Bringing up Michael Jordan is a big no-no. First, Michael Jordan is Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant is just Kobe Bryant. Not Michael Jordan. Second, Michael had pretty damn good players around him, Rodman & Pippen to name a few.

Lol, Kobe Bryant is JUST Kobe Bryant? I dont even have to reply on that, that sounds obvious enough. Also yes, Jordan did had good players around him, and your point is? Im not getting you.

You're implying that with the leftover money from Shaq, Malone & GP..."quality" players would sign with LA? Why? Bryant isnt Jordan...he isnt close to Jordan. Why would those players sign? What do players want to do? Win championships. Ok, lets say Shaq isnt on the Lakers and he's on some team...Utah Jazz. Now, you're a quality free-agent. You're not a superstar but you want what every other player wants...a ring. Now you've got the option to sign with a Kobe led team and a Shaq led team...who would you choose? I think Malone & GP made that descision quite well

Why would those players sign with the Lakers and not with another team that Shaq is in? They dont really have a choice, I bet the team that gets Shaq will basicly loose all their money to Shaqs contract to get any other decent player(s). Also, we all know Shaq is getting old and his career is coming close to end, why would a player sign a contract if they know that they will loose their franchise player in 2 or 3 years? If they sign with the Lakers, they can get more money, and get the longer success with Kobe who is just 25 years of age and is getting better and better. And believe me, not every player is after a ring, most of the NBA is after the money.

They could have just as well signed for SA, Sacramento or Dallas for that matter, since money is not the issue. No, they signed with LA, not because of Bryant, dont even make that assumption because that's just being naive or totally blind in Kobe love. It was NOT for Kobe they came, they came for Shaq. If you disagree with this, end of discussion right here.

Like I said, if the Lakers didnt have Kobe last year they would most likely be a loosing team, and yet you said that Malone and Payton wanted to be part of a winning team? If LA would be a loosing team, then they could just sign with the teams you just mentiond, and Im not in Love with Kobe, hes just my favorite player, are you in love with Shaq? Also, Dont tell me when to end this discussion, if you dont like it just dont post ok?

Second, you bring up Michael Jordan while we're on the subject of Kobe Bryant...dont. Kobe is not Michael, nor do I think he will reach that level, Kobe's good...he's not great. Michael had a Pippen, I dont think Kobe would even get along with his Pip type player. Kobe wants to lead scrubs. Actually Kobe just wants to lead, doesnt make a difference what he's leading as long as the other player isnt a star. Pippen was a star regardless of Michael Jordan, for Kobe to win, he would need a Pippen like player...or in other words...a star. Kobe doesnt want this.

Talking about not reading posts well , take some time off and count how many times you have mentiond the name Michael Jordan, I was reffering to something that Magius said that big guys lead to championships, but I guess you didnt do your homework good enough to figure that out. I dont know if Kobe ever will be better then Jordan, no one knows and I dont want to know, so stop bringing him up.

And how in the hell do you know if he couldnt get along with his fellow star player on the team? because some reporter said that everybody on the team hates him? then how come I always see Kobe joking around with his teammates, playing a lil 1 on 1 with Shaq before games and so on? Another thing you dont know is that according to you he wants to lead the scrubs, I THINK he wants to be the leader on the team because all these years people are saying that he cant win a thing without Shaq and he was simply overshadowed by him most of his career, it would be a waste if a player with his talent would be known as the guy who couldnt do it alone. Pippen was a star regardless to MJ? hahaha , where was MJ when Scottie lead his team by himself into the playoffs when Jordan wanted a longass vacation?

Long story short, Kobe will not lead a team to a championship...and since it's become fashion, I'm willing to bet my membership on it.

I take the deal, I think Kobe can lead a team if he has decent players on his side.

As has been said by many, wing players don't win Championships. Michael Jordan is an exception because he's great, Kobe isnt. Michael Jordan was an exception yet he had a star team-mate playing along side him. His team was balanced out and that's what won championships...ofcourse Michael had alot to do with it.

yes Kobe is a great player, you know it. Maybe not as good as Jordan but he is a great player, if you say he isnt? then Ill drop this conversation right here, there is no point in a conversation with someone who has that kind of opinions.

[Macca]

This is turning into another thread about is Kobe better than Jordan, and Kobe and Shaq and Kobe and T-Mac, is Kobe like Pippen... don't get Pippen messed up in this people, come on, he's old, leave the old folk alone. This thread is about whether or not that would be a good trade. No disraspect to anyone, but I don't want this to turn into another KOBE thread. And now my 5 cents, I agree with j.23, why give it all up, he's got luxuray, 3 titles, sure he'd be making a huge risk by going to another team, but maybe he'd go if they missed out on the title this year.

And by the way, what about the other 3 players involved in thsi deal.. T-Mac, Matrix...

Macca