Payton frustrated in LA

Payton frustrated; Jackson thinks Kings loss was trigger

As if the Lakers haven't had enough trouble this season, Payton is unhappy with his role in LA.

Los Angeles Lakers guard Gary Payton, frustrated by what he said was both limited playing time and the team's triangle offense under Phil Jackson, said on Saturday that he may leave the team after the season. Payton signed a two-year deal with the Lakers but has an option to get out of the deal after the season.

That's merely speculation for now, and GP's feelings could certainly change once Malone is back and the Lakers are on top of the game. Winning the championship would also make returning to LA for one more year much more appealing. Still, the possibility of losing Kobe and Payton this offseason calls for some damage control.

I say let LA get their rings this year and then Payton will return to Seattle(Payton,Allen,Lewis,Murray ) and Malone will go back to Utah and then we can only hope that Johnny comes back...damn,this would go retro

Payton needs to grow up a little. He should've taken into consideration the situation he'd be in before he signed. And, he did sign in order to win a championship, didn't he? Not to try and be the superstar on a team with already a couple of the best players in the league.

He shouldn't be complaining about the triangle at all. Afterall, its got Phil to the Final's 9 times in 11(?) years.

I think Payton has every right to complain, they are too focused on running the triangle right now. I admit, the triangle is the offensive play that got Jackson and his teams to the finals as many times as it did. But teams smarten up, they know on who to collapse and when to do it.

Look at this Lakers team, is it the same team we saw in their first game? The one where everyone was shooting, pick & rolls were being executed, Shaq was setting picks..Payton comes off the pick, shoots, it's good. They've gone back to the triangle, which in most cases, isnt a bad thing...it's what the Lakers have been surviving off of. But if you have Payton out there, you have the option to do something different, you have the option to stray from that same old offensive play which teams have realised, analysed and know how to attack it.

Here's something from the article:

"Karl could pass the ball, and he could get you layups," Payton said. "Me and him was in pick and roll, and we was running, and we were getting the ball out. Now, we're getting the ball, and we go straight to the offense. We're not running. We're not running as much, and that was where I was getting my easy baskets. Now, we don't run."

They were running, they were moving, opposing teams didnt know which one of them to collapse on, as soon as one was doubled, the ball is sent out to say Payton, and he shot it. Right now, if it's sent out...it's sent back in. Payton should have the freedom to shoot. Sure, Rush and Fisher know how to work the triangle, but if you have the option of another star shooting the ball, why not use that option?

*sigh* I hope Jackson knows what he's doing, maybe this little "outburst" of Payton will help Jackson realise, he's got another star, willing to be productive. Make use of it Jackson...before it's too late, and he's gone because you were a bit too hard headed to do it anyone else's way except yours.

Perhaps, perhaps if Malone returns, they will play the way they played their first game vs the Mavs, everyone was getting shots, everyone was shooting, and they were open looks. Double Shaq, ball goes to Malone, if help D is on Malone, ball goes to Payton/Bryant/George for the open shot.

"I think that's probably one of the things (play defense) that he wanted to do more than anything else ... is that he wanted to have an influence on Bibby, so he couldn't get going," Jackson said. "He wanted to wear at him when he did get going, early in the ballgame, and he didn't have that opportunity. And (Bibby) hit a couple of shots down the stretch that were big. And then acted out on court like an a------."


Jackson said that he didn't think Payton would be a problem, but that it would be difficult to get minutes for Payton, Derek Fisher, Kareem Rush and Kobe Bryant.


"All these kids have egos," Jackson said. "But then I tell them that I have one, too."

Don't let your ego get in the way Jackson...

Anyways, I'll stop with my ranting, feel free to disagree about my opinion...but I'll stand by it for the time being.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-lak ... nes-sports

What Phil Jackson is saving Gary Payton for is not entirely clear, but after another 30-minute game Thursday night, this time in a two-point loss to the Sacramento Kings, Payton spent an hour venting to his agent, then called him again Friday morning.

Payton told Aaron Goodwin he longed to play his trademark aggressive game, but that in 56 games as a Laker he'd been boxed in by Jackson's rigid system, shortened playing time and the organization's unalterable reliance on Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O'Neal.

Goodwin said Friday there are moments when Payton "regrets" his decision to sign last summer with the Lakers, an organization Payton believed would adjust as much to his game as he would to it. Instead, Goodwin said, Payton has become a cog in the system, unable to affect games for long periods, if at all.

"That's just a point guard out there," Goodwin said. "That's not Gary Payton. Phil could use the old Gary Payton. It's frustrating, because he sacrificed to come to the Lakers…. At the end of the day, we've got to get together on this. The commitment that was made to Gary is not being fulfilled.

"Anybody who thinks Gary, at 35, has become an average point guard, they're wrong…. He's not being allowed to play his way and I know it hurts."

In the first nine minutes of the first quarter against the Kings, Payton made three of six shots for six points and took three rebounds. For the rest of the game, playing mostly in five-minutes bursts, he took four shots, missing three. He did not score in the second half, when he took three shots to Bryant's 17.

On Wednesday night in Denver, in the Laker possession that ended with Kareem Rush's game-winning three-pointer, Payton was so surprised Bryant gave up the ball that a pass nearly hit him in the face.

Jackson said he has asked Bryant to leave the ball in Payton's hands, to allow Payton to activate the offense, which occasionally happens.

"He's not happy," Goodwin said. "To be quite honest, he's tired of it. If they're not listening, it's crazy. All L.A. has seen is a shell of Gary Payton. He's gone out of his way to defer, and he's getting nothing back from Phil….

There's a time when players should be adjusting to the coaches offense, and there's a time when the coach should be adjusting to their player's talent.

Phil Jackson, as great of a coach as he is, needs to recognize Payton's talent and fit him in the offense so he can play to his capabilities.

It's really unfair that Kobe can put up 20-something shots, rack up 8 assists just like he did last year. The Lakers didn't win it last year. That's why they brought in Payton and Malone. But if you don't use the talent you have, then it's just a waste. Shaq and Kobe have done little adjusting while Payton's doing a ton.

I say, give Payton the ball more, let him penetrate for the bucket or find the open man. Set up some plays for him in the post, because that's where he's at best. Kobe and Shaq will get their points, at the expense of their assists. Payton's numbers will go up if you just give him the ball. And it will benefit the team.

It's really unfair that Kobe can put up 20-something shots

It is fair because he is their best player. Payton should realize before he signed that he wouldnt be the first scoring option as he always has been, Kobe has been doing good things lately, plus LA is winning right now. I do understand that Payton is used to be the mainplayer on the team, but hes in a whole different situation right now, hes playing behind 2 players who simply better then him in the offense and need to get the ball. When Karl returns, I hope Gary will find hi srole again as he did in the start of the season, finding players and finish in the fast break

Bad guy of the year (since 2002)

2002-Keyon Martin
2003-Ron Artest
2004-Gary Payton(??)

It's really unfair that Kobe can put up 20-something shots

It is fair because he is their best player. Payton should realize before he signed that he wouldnt be the first scoring option as he always has been, Kobe has been doing good things lately, plus LA is winning right now. I do understand that Payton is used to be the mainplayer on the team, but hes in a whole different situation right now, hes playing behind 2 players who simply better then him in the offense and need to get the ball. When Karl returns, I hope Gary will find hi srole again as he did in the start of the season, finding players and finish in the fast break

I'm not saying that it should be Kobe taking 15 shots and Payton taking 15 shots, but do we see an adjustment in Kobe's game this year? Not really. I think it's better that they all adjust so it accomodates what each of them do best.

I was really trying to put them emphasis on Kobe getting more assists that Payton. When you've got a brilliant playmaker like Payton on your team, you give him the ball and you let him penetrate and dish the ball to you. There's no need for Kobe to be carrying the playmaking duties on this team.

If we put the ball in Payton's hands more and let him do his thing (which isn't necessarily scoring), it gives Shaq and Kobe less responsiblity and they wouldn't have to consume so much energy.

seen this coming... payton's ego doesnt fit in with the laker's system.

It is fair because he is their best player.

It is fair because he is their best player.

Shaq is not longer as dominant as he used to be, he passed his prime and it will all go down from now. I think Kobe is their leader now, he has been there best player since the All-Star break now that hes 100% recoverd from all injuries. Hes back from his form as he was last year, even better. Shaq is still a nightmare for his defenders, but more and more players these days are able to slow him down, unlike in the past. In my eyes, and most true Lakers fans eyes, Kobe is the leader right now and Im sticking to it. If you dont agree with me, come with some arguments instead of posting a

i think payton needs to focus more on his DEFENSE.

it's a poor decision on payton's part to let this leak out to the public. there's enough drama going on



phil jackson lengthy championship coaching resume

payton no rings

Alritey then, let's get it on with.

Kobe, Kobe, Kobe...that's all Kobe thinks about. Kobe's on a mission to prove the world how great he is.

Look at Payton, he's asking for a few more touches, and you, probably out of biasedness, say: "No, he has no right to complain, given Kobe is their best player."

If Shaq is willing to give up shots for Malone & Payton...the key additions, why can't Mr Bryant do that? Cuz he's their best player? No, best players no when to share the ball, and when to throw up 20 some shots.

Kobe might not have been as good as he is, if Shaq wasnt around. Kobe has had the opportunity to blossom, because of Shaq's presence. All these years, defense's focused on Shaq, giving Bryant opportunity.

Right now, I think Shaq & Bryant are on the same plateau. The difference is, Kobe's hoisting up shots far more then Shaq is.

Shaq is slowed by his injuries, I'll admit that, he's not 100 %. So, he's not at his best.

That's an excuse you like to use on Bryant, isnt it? Well, it can be used for Shaq's defence too.

Best player...I don't think this is a term people should talk about too much.

Let's break this down a bit.

Hypothetical situation, Shaq's injured...it's all Kobe.

Can Kobe win without Shaq? Some games, yes. Others...no. Shaq has the ability to know when he's supposed to pass. He knows, when I'm doubled, I kick it out, for the open J.

Kobe doesnt, Kobe's mentality is: If they double me, and I got NO where else to go, that's when I'll pass the ball. It's been like that for always.

Some game last year, against the Spurs, I dont remember what date etc.

Game comes down to the last play, ofcourse Kobe has the ball, given Shaq isn't going to bring the ball up the court. Kobe tries some of his acrobatics, he fails, after he's doubled, it seems like he's going to pass the ball for the three. Suddenly, the help defense moves away, Kobe realises this, decides to juggle the ball back to himself. I have it on tape. It cost the Lakers the game. These little things, show what kind of a player Mr Bryant is.

Mr. Bryant is one of the most selfish players ever. Don't come showing me his triple doubles, telling me, how can a player be selfish if he's passing the ball...Kobe is selfish because he wants all the glory.

You have that nice little quote in your sig, it was a comment Kobe made against Shaq, yet...when he fails, all Mr Bryant can say is, the shots were there, they just werent falling. No shit idiot, if you're gonna jack up 20 something shot's, they will be there.

Best player is Kobe, no...best player knows what's best for the team. Shaq knows when he has to give the ball up, Kobe doesn't, he gives it up, when he has NO other option.

If Mr. Bryant were to walk, I would have no objections as a Laker fan, I would rather have some scrub, who's willing to share, then a player who's out for all the glory.

C'mon, this man is all about the glory, look at last years all star game, they could've gotten a better shot then Kobe taking that three (which was off balance too), the west team was lucky O'Neal fouled Kobe. Long story short, Kobe couldn't except the fact, that Michael Jordan would finish the game, on his last shot, in his last All Star appearance.

If Shaq can cut down on his shots, Kobe should be able to do the same...for the team. After all, it is a team sport isn't it? So what if you can't average your 30 something points, what good is it for you to average 30 something points, and your team is losing and your team-mates are unhappy? What good is it?

If Kobe were willing to give up a few more touches, those touches could go to Payton, this way Payton is happy, plus we've got another productive player on board. Opposing teams know, we can't only focus on Mr. Bryant, we have to focus on all three, if there is a balanced attack, it usually results in the wins.

Glory isn't everything, the soone Bryant realises this, the better it will be.

Anyways, you'll probably come up with mighty arguements for Bryant, I'm willing to read those, but I think I made my point.

Just answer this one simple question for me, I'll even make it a multiple choice for you.

Question: Why does Kobe want a team of his own?

Answers:

A) So that he can win. (Oh, I didnt know he can't win with LA.)

B) Glory.

C) To get individual recognition, MVP etc. (yeah, it falls under glory.)

I rest my case.

Goodnight folks.

I begin with: Look at Payton, he's asking for a few more touches, and you, probably out of biasedness, say: "No, he has no right to complain, given Kobe is their best player." I didnt say give the ball to Kobe and stop crying, I meant that Kobe is their best player in the offense, and thats why I dont see anything wrong with his ball touches, the better players need the ball more then the other role players, thats how I see it. Yes, Kobe was selfish in his career. But we are talking about now, and from what I am seeing, there were so many situations when Kobe should have shoot the ball, but instead he passed it off, Im talking about ALOT of situations. The reason why Kobe is taking the late shots in the 4th quarter is quite obvious, hes the most clutch player on the team, maybe even in the NBA, Period. I have no idea why you even brought in the 2003 All-Star game in. MJ´s final game? yeah, great . Why wont just play 5 on 4 leaving the Shooting Guard on the bench so that MJ will have more chance to finnish with a good game. If you saw the All-Star game, there were only like what? 5 seconds left on the clock. That is not a situation to remain calm, look at your possibilities and then perform, in that kind of situation you should take the 1st option you see. Its not the Michael Jordan game you know, Hes one of the best players of all time, but to get special treatment sounds very unlogical to me. Thats just your opinion that he couldnt accept the fact that MJ made the so called game winner. Maybe he missed the first free-throw to give MJ another chance? Sounds foolish, but its just as crazy as your opinion. You think Shaq made Kobe better, others think that he stands in Kobes way....this can go on forever so Im not going into that. "Best player is Kobe, no...best player knows what's best for the team", Best player is Kobe and yes he knows whats the best for his team. Hes avaraging like 30 something, 6 and 8, and I think the Lakers are winning right now or am I wrong?

And thank you for putting those answers in multiple choice order, Im so dumb that I wouldnt understand if you wouldnt do that. *Sigh*

Let me put it this way now you are at it:

WHY KOBE IS THE BEST PLAYER ON THE LAKERS AND NOT SHAQ:

A) Shaq doesnt have the killerinstinct anymore like Steve Kerr said, Kobe has

B) Shaq never gets back on defense when he misses a shot and the ball ends up in the middle of a break. I dont see Kobe doing that

C) Kobe knows when to pass and when to attack, Shaq throws tons of hard hookshots when hes double teamed.

like it huh?

Im not hating on Shaq at all (unlike you do on some player). I dont want this to be Shaq vs Kobe, they are playing very very good basketball together and they should play together as long as possible. All I say is that Kobe is the better player at this point and more valuable to his team

If you want to go on about this, please do it over msn, that way I can share my toughts more specific in my language.

Let me put it this way now you are at it:

WHY KOBE IS THE BEST PLAYER ON THE LAKERS AND NOT SHAQ:

A) Shaq doesnt have the killerinstinct anymore like Steve Kerr said, Kobe has

B) Shaq never gets back on defense when he misses a shot and the ball ends up in the middle of a break. I dont see Kobe doing that

C) Kobe knows when to pass and when to attack, Shaq throws tons of hard hookshots when hes double teamed.

like it huh?

Im not hating on Shaq at all (unlike you do on some player). All I say is that Kobe is the better player at this point.

If you want to go on about this, please do it over msn, that way I can share my toughts more specific in my language.

Well Shaq is still a more efficient scorer, and yes even taking into account free throws and the fact that Kobe makes three's Shaq is still more efficient. But Kobe has been on fire lately, so you gotta feed the fire till it dies down which it kinda is today but still.

Shaq is the best player on the team, maybe not the most versatile scorer, but still the most effective.

B) Shaq never gets back on defense when he misses a shot and the ball ends up in the middle of a break. I dont see Kobe doing that

Common he's 7'1, 340, how do you expect him to get back on defense as fast as Kobe does. Also on the break its probably not Shaq's man thats going to be doing the scoring so s'all good.

Also Payton doen't neccesarily want more shots, he just wants to be the primary ball handler and be the on the creates for the team, not just their to swing the ball to Kobe of feed the post to Shaq. Basically what Derek Fisher has been doing all these years.

Lastly its not like Payton isn't an efficient scorer either, I mean he is shooting 47% from the field, and about 47% for his career, so he's a guy that can put up points efficiently too.

Last edited by fgrep15 on Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

But hes not even trying, thats what I meant, hes just standing there, and watching the play getting finnished

He needs to get on the tread mill, he should go work with Jeff Bzdelik (as his trainer) during the summer, get up in the high alititude, and get some conditioning going

Maybe he's tired, who knows, I haven't really seen him doing it often so I dunno, maybe Phil will notice and talk to him.

He needs to get on the tread mill, he should go work with Jeff Bzdelik (as his trainer) during the summer, get up in the high alititude, and get some conditioning going

Maybe he's tired, who knows, I haven't really seen him doing it often so I dunno, maybe Phil will notice and talk to him.

, I can make a .gif of Shaq doing that if you want

WHY KOBE IS THE BEST PLAYER ON THE LAKERS AND NOT SHAQ:

You forgot to list that you have him as your signature as reason number 1.

I'm not a fan of the lakers, shaq, or kobe. However, I do respect shaq becuase he plays hard. Kobe at times does play hard, but overall, i agree with what physco jackal said. Kobe during the games that ive seen (which have been a fair few over the years) doesn't quite seem to push himself.. he'd rather that a fadeaway drifting towrads the baseline than swinging it to the open man. Now at times (ie last season) he really went hard, and i respected him. But this season (untill recently...) he has gone back to the me first appraoch.
Kobe doesnt care about winning in my opinion. Look at after the lakers won their first title, did kobe come back with the teams best intentions at heart? Fuck no, he came back with the motivation of to show the world how much he had improved. He wanted to be the man, instead of shaq, and that caused problems.. why would ANYONE do that to a reigning mvp and on the defending world champions? the only explanation i can think is he was only thinking about kobe.
Also, when Malone was in the lineup, and payton actually had the ball in his hands, those great players fed off shaq. They made him better, and shaq made them better in return. Has kobe ever truely made shaq better? Apart from throwing an incredible pass occasionally (which he gets credit for.."whoa look at that sensation pass by KOBE BYRANT...").
And on top of that, despite the distractions he brought to the lakers (the rape thing, which may not be his fault, depends if he is found guilty or not) he wasnt 100%, and shaq said it might be better that he should ease into the season, get his feet under him first, which i felt was right. but kobe bites his fucking head off and causes another distraction, bringing up last season and a whole new chapter to the "shaq/kobe feud".
Does kobe work his guts out? Yes
Does Kobe care about winning? Up until a point... imo. You put tmac in kobes position and you watch this laker team steamroll, becuase tracy would play off those great teamates.

You may think this is hating but its not. I don't particularly like shaq, or the lakers. I respect any player who plays hard. Evidence of this is im a new york fan, but alonzo was one of my favourite players becuase of his intenisity.
One day, kobe will learn... but will it be too late? will he be in utah on a 7 year deal when he finally realises how much easier things were when he had shaq alongside him?

Here's the bottom line: Lakers won three championships with Shaq as the go to guy. Lakers lost last year with Kobe trying to be the go to guy. So which one is better?

Kobe averages 1.35 points per field goal attempt.
Shaq averages 1.57 points per field goal attempt.

Now who should get the ball more if you want the team to win?

I'm glad someone brought this to my attention:

I asked:

Can Kobe win without Shaq? Some games, yes. Others...no.

Stat Man said:

I'm shocked no one has ever brought this up...

1999-2000: Kobe plays only 66 games, Shaq 79...Lakers 67-15, champions

2002-2003: Shaq plays only 67 games, Kobe 82...Lakers 50-32, eliminated in the second round.

In 2000, Shaq was the go to guy, the "man" as most of you call it.

In 2003, Kobe was made the go to guy, thus the "man". We saw the results. Shaq can carry this team, till today. Kobe, as much as I like him, cannot.

Kobe averages 1.35 points per field goal attempt.
Shaq averages 1.57 points per field goal attempt.

Now who should get the ball more if you want the team to win?

I want an answer on this one, thnx Robby.

Does Kobe care about winning? Up until a point... imo. You put tmac in kobes position and you watch this laker team steamroll, becuase tracy would play off those great teamates.

Glad others feel this way.

One day, kobe will learn... but will it be too late? will he be in utah on a 7 year deal when he finally realises how much easier things were when he had shaq alongside him?

McGrady was also the one saying: I want my own team, I want to be their leader, I want individual achievements, what did it get him? How much more do we need to discuss this for it to get through?...Individual achievements are mighty nice and all folks, but if you dont win at the end of the night, what good is individual achievements? Unless, winning isn't as important as recognition is. In other words...the glory.

Shaq might be slow and all, but do take his age and condition into consideration. This guy get's beaten up night in and night out.

I won't discuss this matter too much, given Kobe hasnt reached thirty as yet. When he does, we'll talk.

Btw, you didnt answer the question I asked.

I repeat:

Question: Why does Kobe want a team of his own?

Answers:

A) So that he can win. (Oh, I didnt know he can't win with LA.)

B) Glory.

C) To get individual recognition, MVP etc. (yeah, it falls under glory.)

Here's the bottom line: Lakers won three championships with Shaq as the go to guy. Lakers lost last year with Kobe trying to be the go to guy. So which one is better?

Kobe averages 1.35 points per field goal attempt.
Shaq averages 1.57 points per field goal attempt.

Now who should get the ball more if you want the team to win?

Depends on the situation. If its at the end of the game and is close, then Kobe. Chances are if you give Shaq the ball, the D will foul him, and seeing how he's a terrible ft shooter, and Kobes above 80%, Kobe. Also if you need a three, do you give it to Shaq?

Now throughout the game, it should just be let Kobe create. If he gets an open shot, take it. Or take his man of the dribble for some penatration and dish, maybe hit shaq on a wrap around, because when the D collapses on Kobe, Shaq will be open.

But it depends more on the situation. If Shaq gets position, get him the ball. He should atleast touch the ball once every posession.

And, the reason why Shaq has higher points per FG attempt is where he shoots. Look where he shoots from. Only maybe 50-70 shots, the whole season, come from outside of the paint.

One day, kobe will learn... but will it be too late? will he be in utah on a 7 year deal when he finally realises how much easier things were when he had shaq alongside him?

Thats exactly what I've been thinking the whole time. Shaq will be out in a couple of years. Kobe should wait around, get some rings, and then the team will be his. Either that or sign a 2-3 year contract somewhere else, then come back to LA.

McGrady was also the one saying: I want my own team, I want to be their leader, I want individual achievements, what did it get him? How much more do we need to discuss this for it to get through?...Individual achievements are mighty nice and all folks, but if you dont win at the end of the night, what good is individual achievements? Unless, winning isn't as important as recognition is. In other words...the glory.

Kobe and T-Mac are pretty good friends, or that was atleast what I read in Slam after T-Mac landed in Orlando. Kobe should take some advice and watch T-Mac's situation. 50 pts+no teammates=LOSS!!!!

If Kobe thinks a little more and lands on a team that is trying to reconstruct, and is actually doing half decent, like Denver.

[color=blue][i][b]McGrady was also the one saying: I want my own team, I want to be their leader, I want individual achievements, what did it get him? How much more do we need to discuss this for it to get through?...Individual achievements are mighty nice and all folks, but if you dont win at the end of the night, what good is individual achievements? Unless, winning isn't as important as recognition is. In other words...the glory.

Ohhhh the possibilities with VC and T-Mac, bring a tear to my eye...

i do think shaq should be the main option but he's a liability in close games because of his free throw shooting. how can you call someone the 'man' if you can't depend on him to close out games?

bryant may be selfish or whatever but he's probably the game's best closer when he's healthy.

these guys are like tequila and lime.