Best in the game (NOW)

[Matthew]

Dwight Howard: 1011 free throws

That's for his career you dum-dum .

Lol yeah I misread that, but still, 598 fta this past season.

Carmelo is one of the people who get superstar attention... not good to use for an example here

You cannot count Carmelo as a guard. Lebron is a stretch at guard these days as well.

[Laxation]

Carmelo is one of the people who get superstar attention... not good to use for an example here

You cannot count Carmelo as a guard. Lebron is a stretch at guard these days as well.

Whether or not he is technically a guard, he still gets the superstar calls which is what Riot is talking about...
Its more perimetre players than guards thats are the issue

[Matthew]

And Brand, Gasol, etc dont get calls either?

[Laxation]

It is pretty obvious that some players were getting calls others werent - most notably in the finals (ie. wade...)

Whether that made big men suffer is another story

[Matthew]

Get over it.

[Riot]

That was the stupidest comeback to my stats I have ever seen, Matthew. You use their PPG for defense? Of course they are going to have a higher PPG because they are getting to the line more often.

Gasol and Brand seem to be an exception to the rule. Even Jermaine O'Neal was on pace to have a lower free throw total than normal.

The bottom line is this: most of the calls go in favor of the guards these days. I proved that by posting all those guards who have had career high in free throw attempts (including guys who have been in the league a long time like Kobe and Iverson). You (or someone else) said earlier in this thread that Dirk gets superstar calls because he is aggressive. He actually did not get that many calls in comparison to the guard's. It's funny how the guards recieve 2/3 more free throw attempts a year than guys like Garnett, Duncan and Nowitizki.

[Matthew]

The ppg rebuttal was to say they had good years. Opposing teams couldnt really contain them. Its simple logic. A part of that could be getting to the line more often, but its not simply becuase they are guards.

Gasol and Brand seem to be an exception to the rule. Even Jermaine O'Neal was on pace to have a lower free throw total than normal.

What rule, its a perception you have condured up to explain KG's decline.

The bottom line is this: most of the calls go in favor of the guards these days. I proved that by posting all those guards who have had career high in free throw attempts (including guys who have been in the league a long time like Kobe and Iverson). You (or someone else) said earlier in this thread that Dirk gets superstar calls because he is aggressive. He actually did not get that many calls in comparison to the guard's. It's funny how the guards recieve 2/3 more free throw attempts a year than guys like Garnett, Duncan and Nowitizki.

When Dirk is aggresive he gets the calls. Game 7, uh remember? I explained possible reasons for kobes added trips to the line. Maybe it just hurts you that players like Iverson and Kobe arent in decline. I dont know. I dont care. You're yet to post any proof.

[Riot]

Garnett never gets to the line so his "decline" really isn't important. What I find important is the fact that the best forwards (Duncan, Nowitizki, Garnett) all had less free throw attempts this year than they did last year. Meanwhile, the top 3 or 4 (Bryant, Iverson, Wade, James) all had career high in free throw attempts. It's funny how this all happens at the time where the NBA decides to start calling the hand checking rule. They made a big deal about it in pre-season last year.

The fact that you can sit down and not see the difference amazes me. My beef with it is that if you put a hand on a perimeter player driving down the lane it is a foul. However, if you put a hand on a big man and body them up and play phyiscal it is not. Can't you see the double standard? Guards are being babied and, in my eyes, that is a fact.

[sdot_thadon]

No double standards, guard are more dynamic on offense. This generation of guards are probably the most athletic ever. If Shaq was the focus in Miami he'd be right there with all the guards, because he's difficult to contain. Much like our guards. Oh, and by the way last time I checked Lebron and Melo were small forwards.

[Matthew]

Garnett never gets to the line so his "decline" really isn't important. What I find important is the fact that the best forwards (Duncan, Nowitizki, Garnett) all had less free throw attempts this year than they did last year. Meanwhile, the top 3 or 4 (Bryant, Iverson, Wade, James) all had career high in free throw attempts. It's funny how this all happens at the time where the NBA decides to start calling the hand checking rule. They made a big deal about it in pre-season last year.

The fact that you can sit down and not see the difference amazes me. My beef with it is that if you put a hand on a perimeter player driving down the lane it is a foul. However, if you put a hand on a big man and body them up and play phyiscal it is not. Can't you see the double standard? Guards are being babied and, in my eyes, that is a fact.

I couldn't care less if you have a beef with me for pointing out the flaws in your arguement. I explained why Duncans wer down. If kgs' fta's arent important, why did you list him in the first place? You can talk about Wade, Kobe, Iverson getting a boost in the fta's, but Brand, Howrad, Gasol, Anthony also got the benefit of calls and they are not guards. Therefore there is not a prejiduce towards guards in this league.

[air gordon]

riot wouldn't even bother making his argument if his hero wasn't involved. in fact he probably would be agreeing with you if it was something anti-denver nugget. riot is truly the biggest player apologist in the forum

i think matthew had some very good responses as to why Bryant and co. went to the line so many times.

sdot_thadon- keep on posting

i will say since zone defenses are allowed, it has given yet an extra edge for defenses to try and stop post players. historically, organized basketball has made rules to stop the big men from dominating the game.. making the lane bigger, goal tending, disallowing dunks at one point, etc

[Riot]

This has nothing to do with Kevin Garnett. Garnett hasn't been getting calls his entire league. I could make a whole agrument for that but that would be off topic.

Matthew, I never said I had beef with you or your agrument. I said I have beef with the league because a foul on the perimeter is not a foul in the post. I have seen many post players, not just Kevin Garnett, get mugged and pushed around in the post and no foul is called. However, when I see Dwyane Wade drive to the basket and someone brushes their wrist against his chest he gets a foul call. It is a stupid contrast.

Lebron James and Carmelo Anthony are not guards but they are mainly perimeter players. They are not post players who bang inside with other bigger players. I find it stupid that a foul on the perimeter is different than a foul in the paint. I'm sorry if I ask for consistency from the referees. Maybe I shouldn't hold them to such high standards.

But what do I know? I'm just a dumb homer.

[air gordon]

you got that wrong, you dumb homer. you wouldn't be in this thread if someone left your hero off the best in the game list. OMG KG HAS TO BE IN EVERYONE'S LIST!!

lol are you kidding me- Wade, James, Anthony, even Ginobili are bangers. they just start out farther away from the bakset. most of Wade's fta attempts are a result of him attacking the basket/initiating contact. not because some guy was handchecking him on the perimeter.

[Matthew]

This has nothing to do with Kevin Garnett. Garnett hasn't been getting calls his entire league. I could make a whole agrument for that but that would be off topic

Lol, then why did you list him as a main part of your "arguement"?

I said I have beef with the league because a foul on the perimeter is not a foul in the post. I have seen many post players, not just Kevin Garnett, get mugged and pushed around in the post and no foul is called.

Lol, pathetic.

Lebron James and Carmelo Anthony are not guards but they are mainly perimeter players. They are not post players who bang inside with other bigger players. I find it stupid that a foul on the perimeter is different than a foul in the paint. I'm sorry if I ask for consistency from the referees. Maybe I shouldn't hold them to such high standards.

Maybe you're an idiot. You're entire whine fest was that its a guard dominated league becuase of the ref's. Melo is not a friggin guard. Why dont you go play kg at pg in nba live, that way im sure he'll get plenty of calls.

But what do I know? I'm just a dumb homer. Neutral

Finally, you're starting to make sense.

[Riot]

Wade does not get most of his free throw attempts from the hand checking rule because the hand check is not a shooting foul. However, the hand check rule can put a team over the foul limit in the quarter.

Let me get this straight, Matthew. You don't think post play is more phyiscal than perimeter play? You don't think Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett gets beat around as much as Kobe Bryant or Dwyane Wade?

You are telling me they get to the free throw line because they attack the basket. That is true and I am not disputing that. I am agruing the fact that a foul on the perimeter is pussy play compared to a foul in the paint. Now that the hand check rule is being called more tightly that is being highlighted as I showed you in the post above on this page. Guys who have the ball in their hand have more of an oppertunity to get to the free throw line. If you are a big man your chance of getting to the free throw line isn't as high as a perimeter player because of the new rules. That is why the top guards have a lot more free throw attempts than the top forwards. 70% of the top 10 free throw attempts are perimeter players (I count Pierce and Anthony).

You can say all you want that they get fouls because they are aggressive but how do you define aggressive play? Because they drive to the hoop and attack the basket? That's all fine and dandy but then what defines a post players aggression? They can't drive to the basket therefore they cannot get the cheap hand fouls. The refs are making it easier to dominate the game as a perimeter player because of the defenses fear of fouling. Perimeter players now control the game instead of the post players. That is a fact and if you think I'm being a homer then god help you. I'm not a big fan of Dwyane Wade, Carmelo Anthony or Lebron James but I am a fan of Kobe Bryant, Allen Iverson and Paul Pierce. I am not a fan of Tim Duncan or Yao Ming but I am a fan of Kevin Garnett and Jermaine O'Neal. Either way, I feel post players are at a disadvantage because of the perimeter players control of the game. If you disagree with that then so be it but I am not ignorant or stupid to have my own opinion. I've backed my opinion up with statistics and I've defended it as much as possible. This agrument has gotten to the point where I don't even remember what the original debate was about. All I know is for some reason you guys don't think the referees and the new rule changes are helping the perimeter players.

[Matthew]

500 words and nothing to do with the topic of "the league prefers guards".

[BigKaboom2]

Wow, I got flamed pretty badly on the last page.....almost forgot about this thread. I'm really not sure why everyone believes that Shaq isn't top 10, much less #1. He screws over defenses so badly that the rest of the Heat players could do anything they wanted last season. Are you sure you all watched more than a few Heat games? I'm not saying he puts up the most impressive stats of anyone in the league, but when you watch him play, you can tell he's on another level, which is why he's the only guy who gets quadruple-teamed. PPG is not everything.

2. Kevin Garnett (Also somewhat impossible to debate)

Impossible, or you just cant do it since you have no idea

8. Kobe Bryant (Any of the guys before him could have achieved his PPG average last year if no one else was taking any shots

If it was so easy to put up 35ppg, a LOT more people would be doing it.

10. Yao Ming (So skilled for his height)

Just because he is tall it doesnt make him any better. Thats like trying to justify Nate Robinsons win in the dunk contest...

.....None of these three responses indicate to me that you can understand proper English grammar....they're totally nonsensical in the context of my comments. Either that or you simply didn't read carefully enough.

why even respond to such a post. After reading line 1 you know he knows shit about ball.

What a completely useless post. Thanks for that one.

wow. Shaq and Yao, I'm from Houston and I love Yao, but don't make me laugh. 3 thumbs down.

...Are you sure you watched the end of last season when T-Mac wasn't playing? This doesn't have any logical basis either. Talk to me about it after this season.

I'll make sure to stay out of NBA Talk in the future if I continue to get these kind of poorly-constructed responses.

[sdot_thadon]

Wow, I got flamed pretty badly on the last page.....almost forgot about this thread. I'm really not sure why everyone believes that Shaq isn't top 10, much less #1. He screws over defenses so badly that the rest of the Heat players could do anything they wanted last season. Are you sure you all watched more than a few Heat games? I'm not saying he puts up the most impressive stats of anyone in the league, but when you watch him play, you can tell he's on another level, which is why he's the only guy who gets quadruple-teamed. PPG is not everything.

Shaq's advantage is and always has been being huge. Did't you notice he was a step or two off this year, missing dunks that used to be automatic? Getting outplayed by, GASP! Eric Dampier. Having D-wade makes it easier for Shaq to have probably the worst season of his career(individually) and have no questions raised. I admit he once was the man, but he's on his last legs it would seem.

...Are you sure you watched the end of last season when T-Mac wasn't playing? This doesn't have any logical basis either. Talk to me about it after this season.

no, I didn't. I watched the entire season, and I went to a few of their games, this is my hometown. Yao has much potential, but he's really soft, and that's not a good big-man trait. Last season after the all-star break he was a beast on offense, only on offense. On D, any guard/forward, ect. can have their way with Yao. He's good, but not ready for this list yet.

I'll make sure to stay out of NBA Talk in the future if I continue to get these kind of poorly-constructed responses.

Horrible way to back up points you made in a previous post. If you believe the statements you made are true, the tell us why don't get offended, this is a debate.

i will say since zone defenses are allowed, it has given yet an extra edge for defenses to try and stop post players. historically, organized basketball has made rules to stop the big men from dominating the game.. making the lane bigger, goal tending, disallowing dunks at one point, etc

This is true, but I think the zone also helps contain these same guards that we keep hearing about.

[air gordon]

However, the hand check rule can put a team over the foul limit in the quarter.

this is irrellevant in this discussion. the aforementioned guards get a shit load of freebies at the end of games anyway since they are their respective team's best ft shooters

[Shi]

10-Pierce
9-Brand
8-Duncan
7-Nowitzky
6-T Mac
5-Nash-MVP is the word here,and ofcourse taking PHX to a whole new level. Hope Amare will help next season,and both will take PHX back to the days of Sir charles and KJ.
4-Wade-As a HEAT fan,I must say that the performance he had in the finals,and con. finals,was fantastic,he was the best player in the post-season. hope he'll be even better next year.
3-Lebron-3rd and 2nd are two players that led a team buy themselves to a good season and got knocked out after 7 games by a team considered a lot better,but despite lebron getting to the 2nd round with 2 TriD's,he's got larry hughes with him,as a star,Kobe's got Odom,but still Kobe scored frickin' 81 points in a game! anyway,LBJ will get to it in a few years.
2-Kobe-81 points in a game is one thing,and leading a whole team to the playoffs against the suns and losing after 7 games,is something that should give Kobe a push towards the next year,maybe 2nd round this time.
But 1st is non other than the unbeatable best holy shit player Kevin Garnett. I hope that Randy Foye will help KG and the wolves to get to a better place.

In addition,I'd like to say Amare Stoudamire is no doubt one of the best,but he didn't play much last season. there are a lot of players who need attention,and we could see it in the WCOB,like Dwight Howard and Carmelo Anthony who were both excellent in the USA jerseys.

[sdot_thadon]

But 1st is non other than the unbeatable best holy shit player Kevin Garnett.

Did i read that right? We talking about the same sitting on the sidelines spectating in june KG? KG is an incredible talent, but losing is a surefire way to not be considered top player.

[Weiland]

kg shouldnt be mentioned here..dats all...