NY and Orlando close to a deal

[Matthew]

But Colin its not as if either Marbury or Francis just bring the ball up court, dribble for 15 seconds and jack up a shot. I know you've seen them play so you know they do actually run the offense, get the ball inside, cut and run off screens, then when they get the ball back of ball reversals they drive and shoot. But the mere fact that they do give up the ball means they can co exist, and lets face it, they are both threats to score, so defenses cant just key in one guy.

Interesting deal on the Knicks side, but they now have 2 "cancers" in the same back-court. 2 guys that have never won anything.

Is Grant Hill a cancer? He never got out of the first round. What about Steve Nash? He hasnt either. Or perhaps KG, Lebron and Chris Bosh. Such "cancers" hey?

Also before they got to detroit, Billups, Prince and Ben wallace had never won anything (rasheed and hamilton did on the college level, not that you'd know though), so we're they cancers as well that detroit should have never gotten?

[Matt]

my point was that they (Marbs/Francis) are selfish. They've killed every team they've been on at one point or another.

All they guys you mentioned aren't selfish.

[Matthew]

How can you say they're anymore selfish than the majority of NBA players?

And destroyed their teams? The Rockets were in a better position with Francis than they are now. The Magic are rebuilding, and despite that, they improved over the 20 win season with Francis there.

Marbury may be a different story, but you cant say he's selfish if you actually watch the games. And if he was a piston, you'd love the guy, so your arguement means very little.

I wonder if theres a name for faker homers, like wiggers? Attention whores?

[[L3]1101]

To me it seems like Francis is very similar to Crawford.

They both can play PG/SG. They both are capable scores, good passers if they wanted to, can penetrate. Francis is a little more talented in some categories. They also have had attitude problems, but nothing out of control. I think if Marbury and Francis can get a long, they can make a deadly backcourt.

[Matt]

And destroyed their teams? The Rockets were in a better position with Francis than they are now. The Magic are rebuilding, and despite that, they improved over the 20 win season with Francis there

Francis talent alone is good enough to improve a team, but really that's where it stops. He should be able to take a team further but he's a me first player....he'd rather shoot the ball rather than pass it. See the trend here....shoot first PG's don't get that far....Marbury, Francis, B Davis...unlike those that like the pass the ball....Kidd, Nash.

Marbury may be a different story, but you cant say he's selfish if you actually watch the games. And if he was a piston, you'd love the guy, so your arguement means very little.

He's not always selfish, but more often than not he's looking for his own shot out of the context of the game. When he plays the Jason Kidd way, (racking up the assists and shooting only when necessary) his mediocre teams play pretty good.

On your second point, YOUR argument means very little. I'd love the guy....please, as much as i like watching him play i'd want him shipped out of here pronto!

[Matthew]

Francis talent alone is good enough to improve a team, but really that's where it stops. He should be able to take a team further but he's a me first player....he'd rather shoot the ball rather than pass it. See the trend here....shoot first PG's don't get that far....Marbury, Francis, B Davis...unlike those that like the pass the ball....Kidd, Nash.

Where did Kidd finish last year, and nash the year before? Both first round exits on a combined 1-8 record. fantastic.

and you really didnt address my point. If you feel that francis' talent only helps his teams, wouldnt that help new york as well?

On your second point, YOUR argument means very little. I'd love the guy....please, as much as i like watching him play i'd want him shipped out of here pronto!

Look at how you adore Darko and you're telling me you wouldnt embrace Marbury?

[Matt]

Where did Kidd finish last year, and nash the year before? Both first round exits on a combined 1-8 record. fantastic

Your right, but NJN's struggles can strongly be attributed to injuries. Kidds knee, Jeffersons injury in the playoffs. This year, they seem on pace for better things (if not another 1st round knock out)

and you really didnt address my point. If you feel that francis' talent only helps his teams, wouldnt that help new york as well?

yes, but he'll have to get along with Marbs & LB. But the question is, is the help temporary? There's no point in dealing for him if he can't help your team win a playoffs series or two.

Look at how you adore Darko and you're telling me you wouldnt embrace Marbury?

I like Darko's game. But i won't get into that because that probably won't give you a satisfactory answer. I'll mention his passing and you'll mention his assists per game.

[Matthew]

Your right, but NJN's struggles can strongly be attributed to injuries. Kidds knee, Jeffersons injury in the playoffs. This year, they seem on pace for better things (if not another 1st round knock out)

Thats a fair point about the injuries, but what my point is the differences in pg styles on benefits if you have the right supporting cast.

yes, but he'll have to get along with Marbs & LB. But the question is, is the help temporary? There's no point in dealing for him if he can't help your team win a playoffs series or two.

not necessarily. Remember tim hardaway and sprewell? they hated each other, but still became a lethal duo becuase they put basketball ahead of the feud, and with Larry Brown i could see that happening. And playoffs are out of the question for new york this season... but lets think about next season:
Eddy Curry, channing frye, jalen rose, marbury and francis.. this team does have some talent for next year.

I like Darko's game. But i won't get into that because that probably won't give you a satisfactory answer. I'll mention his passing and you'll mention his assists per game.

What have you seen of his game though? I'm willing to listen as long as its not spin.

[Matt]

call me a pesimist then, but i don't see the duo working that well together for an extended period of time. Nevertheless we'll see what they can muster when they actually get to play.

What have you seen of his game though? I'm willing to listen as long as its not spin.

OK, obviously he hasn't played much but there have been flashes of a real good player here. What i saw....he runs the floor well, good speed and quickness. He can obviously swat shots because of his height & length. For a big man he's got good passing skills and nice tough from 20ft out and he finishes well inside, at least against smaller players. I don't know what his FG% is but i assume it's low, the effects of garbage time. We won't know his true shooting ability until he gets PT and is able to establish a rhythm.

He could use some help on the boards and with his defense (too often attempting to swat shots instead of playing with his feet).

Basically he's raw, but somewhere in there is a good basketball player that just needs time. He's no ordinary garbage time player.

In the end, playing time and a few season of experience will determine if he's the real deal or just hype. You know which side i stand on.

[John WB]

I like this deal.

Francis is a huge upgrade from Crawford. And even if Francis ends up being a cancer, it'd be trading one cancer (Crawford) for another(Francis) and would be an upgrade of talent.

I think this could be a steal if all we give up is JC and Taylor to get him. Or maybe just another throw-in. Hopefully none of the rookies.

Is Grant Hill a cancer? He never got out of the first round. What about Steve Nash? He hasnt either. so we're they cancers as well that detroit should have never gotten?

Nash has been out of the First Round of the Playoffs before. With the Mavs he got to the WCF and same with the Suns last year.

[Jeffx]

Jeff, think about it though; what the knicks have now is not working. Francis may be the player new york needs. Taylors contract expires next year, whilst crawfords expires the same year as Francis', so its not as if the knicks are trading away an expiring deal.. speaking of which, they arent as valueable as they once were. the knicks were only able to get jalen rose for antonio davis' expiring contract.. you compare that last season when the warriors got baron davis for an expiring deal.

And also dont forget, the knicks (thanks to that terrible curry deal) dont get their own draft pick this season, so tanking the rest of the games and rebuilding wont be that beneficial. If the knicks had their pick this season, id be all for it.

Matthew, I just hate the way Isiah built this team. He should have been cutting salary from day one. He's doing the same sh!t previous Knick regimes have done. It has to stop or else this franchise will continue to spin its wheels. And if that pick turns out to be Adam Morrison, I'm going postal.

[air gordon]

Francis talent alone is good enough to improve a team, but really that's where it stops. He should be able to take a team further but he's a me first player....he'd rather shoot the ball rather than pass it. See the trend here....shoot first PG's don't get that far....Marbury, Francis, B Davis...unlike those that like the pass the ball....Kidd, Nash.

on the contrary. some shoot first PG's who have won NBA championships:

Isiah thomas, tony parker, sam cassel/kenny smith, gus williams, jojo white, walt frazier, jerry west... to name a few

[John WB]

Francis talent alone is good enough to improve a team, but really that's where it stops. He should be able to take a team further but he's a me first player....he'd rather shoot the ball rather than pass it. See the trend here....shoot first PG's don't get that far....Marbury, Francis, B Davis...unlike those that like the pass the ball....Kidd, Nash.

on the contrary. some shoot first PG's who have won NBA championships:

Isiah thomas, tony parker, sam cassel/kenny smith, gus williams, jojo white, walt frazier, jerry west... to name a few

Baron Davis is doing alright in Golden State.