Should players on sub .500 teams be All-Stars?

[Andrew]

Since it's that time of year when talk turns to All-Star Weekend, we've had a couple of topics on All-Star selections and more specifically ever since Jeff Van Gundy raised that very question during a game the other day, I've been thinking about approach to the All-Star selections. I guess it pretty much only applies to selecting the reserves since one would expect the coaches to approach their selections on a more critical/intellectual level than fan voting where as we know, popularity is a huge factor.

The argument that Van Gundy put forward is that nobody on a sub .500 team can be doing a good enough job to be considered an All-Star. There's some merit in that given the whole "Good stats on a bad team" stigma but at the end of the day it seems to go against the All-Star concept to me. After all, team success - or lack thereof - comes down to an entire team's effort and ability, whereas a star player's individual talents are always evident.

I'm of the school that looks at the All-Star concept as an acknowledgement of an individual who is having a standout season, regardless of their team's record, in theory a showcase of the best 24 players in the league featuring fantasy lineups and two superteams battling it out. There's usually at least a couple of selections who some would consider borderline but that still leaves 20-22 of the top players in the league featured in the game.

And, much like fan voting being balanced out by the fact that the most popular players in the league also tend to be amongst the best, the top teams in the league are (usually with a couple of exceptions) the clubs that tend to have the prime candidates for the All-Star game anyway. It's the lone star on the struggling team that's the exception and if he's putting up All-NBA numbers and is unquestionably one of the top talents in the league, shouldn't he be a candidate? If someone, for argument's sake, was to average a triple double along with a couple of blocks and steals per game but their team struggled to a 15-25 start, could you begrudge that player a spot on the All-Star team?

To me, if a player is amongst the NBA's elite and is having a fine season he's a candidate for the midseason event. Perhaps some coaches might hold his team record against him when they're casting their vote and that's their choice at the end of the day but it doesn't seem right to disqualify them as candidates in the first place.

What do you think?

[Lamrock]

I hate that Dwyane Wade is going to start, despite playing for the 8-31 Heat, and not having a good season. Wade, Kidd, along with Yao and T-Mac (yeah, they are 2 games above .500, but 2 all-starters for a 21-19 team? Come on...) will all be starting it seems.

I don't necessarily think that being sub-.500 makes you not worthy of an all-star appearance, but it definitely hurts your cause. Being just below .500, but in playoff contention like NJ or Atlanta won't hurt your cause too much, if you have a poor supporting cast. Being way under, like Miami, or the Clippers does. However, if you manage to build something out of nothing, on a pathetic or injury-riddled team, but still put up big stats, and prevent your team from a sub-.100 record, you should be considered. Chris Kaman for All-Star 2008!

[Oznogrd]

they should come up with a bcs like formula that accounts important stats like for guards: steals count more, for centers: blocks count more...that'd fix all this all star shit...yeah...

Anyway on topic, if the guy has the stats, just cuz his team sucks doesnt mean he doesnt deserve the all star spot. I mean look at KG on Minnesota last year, would you honestly say he doesnt deserve a spot? Thats just a high profile example but im sure it happens all the time. But above the game is popularity concert...so therefore if you get votes and you team is 0-37, you still deserve to be there; period

[Andrew]

I hate that Dwyane Wade is going to start, despite playing for the 8-31 Heat, and not having a good season. Wade, Kidd, along with Yao and T-Mac (yeah, they are 2 games above .500, but 2 all-starters for a 21-19 team? Come on...) will all be starting it seems.

I agree it doesn't always look right but four of those players are amongst the best at their respective positions and are players that a lot of people want to see play so their selection isn't completely inappropriate.

I don't necessarily think that being sub-.500 makes you not worthy of an all-star appearance, but it definitely hurts your cause. Being just below .500, but in playoff contention like NJ or Atlanta won't hurt your cause too much, if you have a poor supporting cast. Being way under, like Miami, or the Clippers does. However, if you manage to build something out of nothing, on a pathetic or injury-riddled team, but still put up big stats, and prevent your team from a sub-.100 record, you should be considered.

It's going to come into consideration at some point, no question, and I'd say there's other coaches who share the same point of view as Jeff Van Gundy and so you generally don't see many All-Stars from struggling teams unless they happen to be world class players. Dwyane Wade for example is on the second-to-last place Miami Heat but is averaging around 24, 4 and 7, is still one of the top players at his position and is also a player most would consider entertaining to watch and a legitimate star in the league; the blame for Miami's season doesn't rest upon his shoulders alone. Even if he wasn't assured a spot through fan voting, he'd still have to be given consideration.

[Patr1ck]

I don't think a teams record should matter in the case of All Star selections. It's not the MVP race, it's an award to players who have put in outstanding individual performance during the season. With voting, it becomes more of a popularity contest for starting spots.

I hope Chris Kaman is an all star - 17.4 ppg 13.8 rpg 3.14 bpg

Although, it can be brought up that because Brand is injured he is getting more touches and has the paint to himself on defense. I'm not sure if he will get anal star appearance with Yao Ming, Tim Duncan, and Pau Gasol.

[Lamrock]

Well Pau Gasol won't be an all-star, thats for sure.

Seeing that Jermaine O'Neal, the likely front runner for the backup Eastern Conference Center, is out for maybe the whole season (And the Pacers are 18-23, Indy), we may see the worst All-Star Center since Magloire in either Eddy Curry, Ben Wallace or Shaq. I hope Rasheed Wallace gets the nod though... but I'm not sure if he is even listed as a Center.

Team record should matter at least somewhat. You gotta be doing something wrong if your team is 8-32, 24-7-4 or not (which statistically isn't quite up to Wade's usual standard). If the Pistons won 54 games rather than 64 in 2006, I doubt Hamilton or Sheed would have made the all-star game.

[Pistol]

I think Lamrock is right...records should be considered to a certian extent.

This is just an idea, but wouldn't it be kind of cool to have two teams from each conference and have three games? The two teams from each ocnference play each other and then the winners of each ocnference play inthe REAL All-star game because too many players get left out with only one team from each conference. Look at Brandon Roy, he is stuck behind people like Kobe and T-Mac although he is putting up starter numbers...its just too crowded

[Andrew]

I hope Chris Kaman is an all star - 17.4 ppg 13.8 rpg 3.14 bpg

Although, it can be brought up that because Brand is injured he is getting more touches and has the paint to himself on defense. I'm not sure if he will get anal star appearance with Yao Ming, Tim Duncan, and Pau Gasol.

I don't think that could really be held against him though. At the end of the day, he's been presented with an opportunity to put up big numbers in the absence of a teammate who'd usually be in All-Star consideration himself and he's delivered. I could see him getting the nod over Gasol in recognition of his career year.

Team record should matter at least somewhat. You gotta be doing something wrong if your team is 8-32, 24-7-4 or not (which statistically isn't quite up to Wade's usual standard). If the Pistons won 54 games rather than 64 in 2006, I doubt Hamilton or Sheed would have made the all-star game.

I don't entirely disagree but in all fairness, a team like the Heat obviously has issues that one star can't remedy all by himself. They've had players miss games with injuries (including Wade himself), lost some key role players during the offseason and just don't seem to have any spark. Wade has to shoulder some of the blame along with Shaq, Riley and the rest of the team but it's not as though he's solely responsible.

You bring up an interesting point with the Pistons in 2006 as that could be an example of the opposite being a problem; team success resulting in (perhaps) too many representatives from a single team. After all, the 72-10 Bulls featured only two All-Stars in 1996 - though it would have been hard to exclude the likes of Jordan and Pippen even if the Bulls had only won 50-something games that season - when a case could be made that Rodman could've got the nod that year over someone like Juwan Howard, who had a fine season but his Bullets ultimately missed the Playoffs.

[Miami Heat]

i dont think the team should matter because if ur team sucks it doesnt mean u suck.
like wade is givin everythin he got hes gettin points , rebounds , assists , steals just so the heat can win , and he does it every night

[Fitzy]

i dont think the team should matter because if ur team sucks it doesnt mean u suck.

imho that sums it up

[BIG GREEN]

All-star game is about the best players or favourite players in the league...not the best teams. The reward for being on a good team is already the fuckin MVP awards and the Larry O' Brien trophy...what else do they want? Does every good player have to suffer in every way because he plays with a bunch of dumb fuckers? I'm tired of NBA analysts turning everything into some freakin philosophical and ethical BS.

[Not Me]

All-star game is about the best players or favourite players in the league...not the best teams. The reward for being on a good team is already the fuckin MVP awards and the Larry O' Brien trophy...what else do they want? Does every good player have to suffer in every way because he plays with a bunch of dumb fuckers? I'm tired of NBA analysts turning everything into some freakin philosophical and ethical BS.

agree

[The X]

if we only put guys from winning teams, we'd end up with chumps like Charles Oakley, Tyrone Hill & Jamal Magloire in the All-Star Game....wait a sec, we already did, & probably just for that reason....I'd much prefer to see a guy having a career year on a losing team make it than say Josh Howard....although if you're on a team like Miami, Seattle or Minnesota, you shouldn't have an All-Star, because either the guy has been injured or he's just not that good a player as he can't lead them to victories....therefore, those guys shouldn't make it....but when I say sub-.500, I'm talking the Sacramento's, the Milwaukee's & so on of the league....

[Andrew]

although if you're on a team like Miami, Seattle or Minnesota, you shouldn't have an All-Star, because either the guy has been injured or he's just not that good a player as he can't lead them to victories....therefore, those guys shouldn't make it....

Not necessarily. If a team is that awful save for one stellar player of unquestionable skill, they're still going to struggle despite his best efforts.

[SpaceFlare]

I really believe that the only time a player's team's record should count against him is in the MVP consideration.

As for the All-star game, I believe it's supposed to be a showcase of the top talent in the league, not the top talents from the top teams in the league.

[The X]

although if you're on a team like Miami, Seattle or Minnesota, you shouldn't have an All-Star, because either the guy has been injured or he's just not that good a player as he can't lead them to victories....therefore, those guys shouldn't make it....

Not necessarily. If a team is that awful save for one stellar player of unquestionable skill, they're still going to struggle despite his best efforts.

True, although the point I was trying to make was with Wade....he's clearly been injured & not at his best so I wouldn't consider him All-Star quality this season....that's why Heat having being winning games....

even if you have stellar player of unquestionable skill, on a bad team, he's likely not going to look as good as he really is....it's a tough call....

I'm just throwing a few contrary arguments out there to stir debate....but then again, I would hate to see a guy like Josh Howard make ahead of someone like Rudy Gay, not that I think that Rudy is there yet....

[Silas]

Rudy Gay I think will be there, but then again he's having a great season for a sophomore, but that's exactly what he is, a sophomore.

It stunned me that Ray Allen only made it as an injury replacement last year when he was clearly head and shoulders above players like Josh Howard, Mehmet Okur, and Tony Parker.

It should be about the best player, not team. Yao Ming, Baron Davis, Kevin Martin, Chris Kaman, Michael Redd, Jermaine O'Neil, those are all guys who play on teams that, if the season ended today, would not make the playoffs, yet a case can be made for every one of them to be an all star, and I would hope that they all make it over players like Josh Howard, Hedo Turkoglu, Tayshaun Prince, or perhaps some of them over even Deron Williams or Manu Ginobili.

[Andrew]

True, although the point I was trying to make was with Wade....he's clearly been injured & not at his best so I wouldn't consider him All-Star quality this season....that's why Heat having being winning games....

even if you have stellar player of unquestionable skill, on a bad team, he's likely not going to look as good as he really is....it's a tough call....

I'm just throwing a few contrary arguments out there to stir debate....but then again, I would hate to see a guy like Josh Howard make ahead of someone like Rudy Gay, not that I think that Rudy is there yet....

Wade is a player that you could possibly place in that category this year, though if the game's still about gathering the top players in the league to put on a show a player like Wade would still have to be in the running as long as he's a star in the league; his case just might not be all that strong in a year like this. Of course, it doesn't really matter as far as Wade's concerned since he's in on the fan vote anyway.

[Lamrock]

Well, David West beat out T-Mac for an all-star nod. Also, RJ was pushed aside for Jamison and Rip. I think that this year's reserves were record based. Joe Johnson was the only all-star from a sub-.500 team, and even then, his Hawks are in 7th place.

[shadowgrin]

True, although the point I was trying to make was with Wade....he's clearly been injured & not at his best so I wouldn't consider him All-Star quality this season

You don't think it's All-Star quality for a "clearly been injured" guy to average 25 ppg, 7 apg, 4 rpg, and 2 spg? Granted he's playing for the Heat but as Andrew said..
"If a team is that awful save for one stellar player of unquestionable skill, they're still going to struggle despite his best efforts."

[shadowgrin]

True, although the point I was trying to make was with Wade....he's clearly been injured & not at his best so I wouldn't consider him All-Star quality this season

You don't think it's All-Star quality for a "clearly been injured" guy to average 25 ppg, 7 apg, 4 rpg, and 2 spg? Granted he's playing for the Heat but as Andrew said..
"If a team is that awful save for one stellar player of unquestionable skill, they're still going to struggle despite his best efforts."

[J@3]

He's also averaging 4.5 turnovers per game.

[shadowgrin]

Hmmm... I got nothing.

Just noticed this on NBA.com

Kevin Ollie and Darrick Martin lead the league with an assist-turnover ratio of 20 and 19 respectivley. Wow.
And they also lead the steals-turnover ratio with both of them having 5 each.

[Drex]

I didn't expect less from the MVP.

[benji]

Kevin Ollie and Darrick Martin lead the league with an assist-turnover ratio of 20 and 19 respectivley. Wow.
And they also lead the steals-turnover ratio with both of them having 5 each.

Which means what?

Nothing. Assist to turnover ratio has little meaning. You get 20 assists for every turnover...okay...so...that means what exactly...

He's also averaging 4.5 turnovers per game.

And also averaging 38 minutes and 29 possessions a game.

And his turnover rate is only 5.8% more than his career average.