Andrew Bogut and Marvin Williams

[Weiland]

do you guys think that both players are disappointing considering they were picked 1 and 2...I know they are both decent players but are they really making any impact?

[Fresh8]

I think Bogut is making an impact... but it's limited due to the way he's been 'used' in the Bucks' system (Plus, it's not like Bogut doesn't do anything. He does a lot of things that don't require the rock and things that don't show up on the stat sheet... and he doesn't complain about it... well I think he does on occasion). It's no secret that Bogut was frustrated with lack of touches and how the team was run during his first two seasons. Bogut has been awesome in some games and not so much in other games. Hopefully with the Bucks having a new coach and the coach, Larry K, saying he will involve his big men more in the team's offence will help Bogut prove that he was worthy of the number 1 pick.

Williams was drafted as a 'project' and he has also shown flashes of brilliance in his game. I would say that only having been two seasons, it's a bit early to say he's been disappointing. Perhaps if he doesn't start to fit the bill of what he was supposed to develop into within the next two seasons; then he could be considered a disappointment.

[Matthew]

Stop making excuses, they've both been busts considering who was selected behind them.

[The X]

I think you'll see them both have breakout seasons that solidify their lofty status....of course, they're not going to be at the level of Chris Paul or Deron Williams, but going into the draft, those two guys were going to be better than Bogie & Marvin....

[Ty-Land]

Bogut is the future of the Bucks (alongside Yi). So if the Bucks management is willing to bank the future of the franchise on him, then he must be making some impact. It normally takes 3 years for big men to establish themselves in the league, and Bogut will show this year why he was taken number 1. The shift to the triangle from Stotts guard chuck-fest will help immensely. Bogut showed flashes last year, with a couple of 20-20 games, and some other big nights. He struggled the whole year with injuries, from the pre-season, and he would be the first to admit that he was exhausted after the Australian team commitments. After the off season break this year, increased core strength and offensive schemes aimed at involving him, we will see the real Bogut this season. I expect him to be borderline all-star this year, with 16pts, 9.5rbs, 3ast and 1blk. From what I have seen in the preseason, he looks capable of this.

Williams on the other hand, he still has a lot of potential and has shown flashes, but is really lacking consistency. He still has time on his side, but I'm not overly confident he will amount to much.

I guess this debate needs to be taken in context as well. It was a foregone conclusion before the draft that Bogut and Williams would go one and two. This was the consensus in media circles and with both Milwaukee and Atlanta. Yeah, in hindsight Paul and D. Williams would have been (at this stage) better picks, but they were never really in the equation in the first place.

[The X]

I guess this debate needs to be taken in context as well. It was a foregone conclusion before the draft that Bogut and Williams would go one and two. This was the consensus in media circles and with both Milwaukee and Atlanta. Yeah, in hindsight Paul and D. Williams would have been (at this stage) better picks, but they were never really in the equation in the first place.

I would disagree with that sentiment....yes, it was a foregone conclusion that Bogut & Williams would go 1-2....but everyone who was not the Atlanta Hawks were saying the Hawks have to pick a PG, either Chris Paul (first option) or Deron Williams (second option)....it made too much sense....the Bucks were set at PG with TJ Ford & Mo Williams so they can be forgiven for filling a need....the Hawks' pick was disgusting, unless of course Marvin Williams suddenly turns into a perennial All-Star....still then, a perennial All-Star PG like Paul or Williams still would be a better option....

[Matt]

both have been busts up till now....Williams more so than Bogut, but Bogut hasn't done anything special. Joe Smith, you bet!

[-Young Buck-]

Bogut still needs a chance. When he gets the rock he can score 15-20 a game, he is a good rebounder/blocker. I think the reason bogut hasnt really had a great season yet is because the bucks system. He was used more as a garbage man, sometimes would give him the ball. He really didnt get enough touches to have an opportunity to score like a duncan or garnet would. Im not saying he is as good as them, but you need the chance to score to actually score. Bogut isnt going to dribble up the court and create his own shot. He needs someone to give him the ball in the post.

[shadowgrin]

you need the chance to score to actually score

David Lee
Andres Biedrins

Offensive rebound, tip-in, score, done.

[The X]

you need the chance to score to actually score

David Lee
Andres Biedrins

Offensive rebound, tip-in, score, done.

not every big man is effective garbage men like those guys....it's take a special player like Cedric Ceballos or Shawn Marion to score without plays run for them....

I think the system is a big thing for Bogut, but that's like most players....he needs to have the right fit for his skill sets....last couple of seasons, Bogut would touch the ball 6-7 times in the 1st quarter & pick up 8pts & a couple of assists....then he would be lucky to touch the ball again until the 2nd half....he was mostly used basically as a screener/hand the ball off to a guard to chuck it up....from the Bucks games I saw last season, the Bucks seemed more effective when Bogut got more touches....he's not going to score 20ppg but he can easily score 15ppg, dish out a handful of assists & make good decisions to help the team win....

should be an interesting season....make or break, as he has admitted himself....

[Its_asdf]

I think Marvin Williams needs a change of scenery. The Hawks have already got a zillion fowards and I don't think his body is that of someone who can consistently play PF (besides, I like the toughness Al Horford brings to the frontcourt as opposed to Marvin Williams' more perimeter oriented playing style).

[Indy]

I don't see how you could possibly label Marvin as a bust. When he was drafted everyone knew he was a project and would take some time. He left after his freshman year at North Carolina, where he didn't even start. I thought it would be 2 or 3 seasons before he reached double digits, but he was already a 13/6 guy last year. This year he'll be close to a 20 ppg scorer. He's ahead of schedule.

[Its_asdf]

I don't think Marvin will reach his full potential unless more fowards on the Hawks are moved. They're pretty stacked at that position with a lot of youngsters.

[TheMC5]

Marvin Williams has also had his development slowed by a series of injuries. In pre-season (I know it's just pre-season, but still) he was the Hawks leading scorer at 18 PPG. I fully expect him to approach those numbers this year, and be either 2nd or 3rd in scoring for the Hawks.

I can't fault the Bucks for taking Bogut, either. He's been pretty solid thus far, and anytime there's a potential franchise big man available, you almost have to take him. Whether or not he actually becomes a franchise player is almost moot, though personally I'm not yet convinced he's got what it takes. I think he'll be a real nice 2nd or 3rd option for most of his career, probably make an all-start team or 2, but that's pretty much where I see his ceiling.

To those claiming Bogut is a good shot blocker: I can't find the numbers right now (I tried, but I can't remember where I saw them), but if I remember correctly, Bogut was among the worst starting centers in terms of block rate (number of blocks out of potential blocks). I reserve the right to retract this statement, as I'm working solely on memory here.

[Ty-Land]

Bogut was a poor shot blocker last season, averaging less than one per game. This preseason he has put up some nice numbers though, and we all know he is great at drawing charges.

[-Young Buck-]

Bogut was a poor shot blocker last season, averaging less than one per game. This preseason he has put up some nice numbers though, and we all know he is great at drawing charges.

Yeah but remember that block on jason terry to win the game for the bucks? lol how many elite shot blockers actually win a game with a block?

[Laxation]

Everything I heard about Bogut, and from the few games I saw, he was an amazing passer - and when they played through him, they did awesome. Then, they would go back to having their guards chucking up shots and turn to shit, leaving Bogut in the dry.

What are the chances of Bogut being utilised this year? I noticed in preseason he was getting next to no assists. His stats depend on the way he is used in the coaches system, moreso than other players - such as Biedrins, Lee.

[Ty-Land]

Bogut was a poor shot blocker last season, averaging less than one per game. This preseason he has put up some nice numbers though, and we all know he is great at drawing charges.

Yeah but remember that block on jason terry to win the game for the bucks? lol how many elite shot blockers actually win a game with a block?

That was a great game. One of many Bucks victories in the final seconds for that season. The Kukoc to Bogut play against the Spurs was amazing to.

I believe Bogut has put up a 4 block game in the pre-season, and has generally been more aggressive and actually jumping when contesting shots. He has definitely put in some work on blocking this off season.

[grusom]

Everything I heard about Bogut, and from the few games I saw, he was an amazing passer - and when they played through him, they did awesome. Then, they would go back to having their guards chucking up shots and turn to shit, leaving Bogut in the dry.

What are the chances of Bogut being utilised this year? I noticed in preseason he was getting next to no assists. His stats depend on the way he is used in the coaches system, moreso than other players - such as Biedrins, Lee.

I think he should be played like Tim Duncan does now, and like Brad Miller and Vlade Divac used to be in Sacramento (back when they were good). Throw him the ball while he's backing up in the high post, and let the guards cut around him for open jumpers or cuts to the basket.

[Weiland]

im not pretty sure, but as far as what i have seen, Bogut's mid range game is far worse than Divac and Brad Miller.. his jumper looks awkward

[---]

Neither have lived up to going ahead of Paul and Williams in terms of BPA. However, I think Bogut should be good for 18/10 at some point in his career and Marvin about 24/6/4. I expected Bogut to be better sooner, but I'm not suprised about Marvin taking a little while to develop - like Indy said he's probably ahead of schedule. He landed in the worst situation - a young team full of guys that play his position, and he's doing very well. I think he'll be better than Josh Smith, as a comparison. He was not much more than a HS player when he was drafted - he came off the bench at UNC.

[Andrew]

If Kwame Brown and Darko Milicic are still getting the benefit of the doubt then it's too early to place the bust label on Bogut and Williams. To me, the fact that they have been outperformed by players taken after them does not automatically make them busts. Even if they never surpass Deron Williams and Chris Paul, I still don't think that automatically qualifies them as busts. If they had shown no flashes of talent or any promise of developing into better players then I'd be inclined to suggest a bust label, especially if that was still the case after a few more seasons.

To use a historical example, Sam Perkins isn't a bust simply because John Stockton - drafted 12 spots later in 1984 - ultimately went down as the better player and indeed one of the best in the history of the NBA because Perkins was still a quality player. If you held the Draft again today you wouldn't take Perkins over Stockton but that doesn't make Perkins a bust.