inspired by my argument in the leather ball thread

[Oznogrd]

How do you guys define "stars?" How do you define what makes someone a shooter? What makes someone a "playmaker"? what makes someone a "highflyer"? I dont mean to use the Live terms, they just seem like good generic terms. I opened up a can of worms in the other thread by saying korver wasnt a good shooter and i got argued with technique. So lets go: Tell to you the most telling stat of each of these (or if no stat, style of play) and why and your example of a good one. Feel free to add your own

Shooter
Playmaker
Power Player
Highflyer

Shooter: as i said in the other thread; for me, this is purely a % of buckets that go in the hoop as they are supposed to. Layups and dunks are shots, so why should they not count? Correct technique helps increase percentage substantially but is not the most telling thing. Example: Tony Parker
Playmaker: for the stats, i'd say assist-turnover ratio is the most telling here. You want the guy who gets the ball where it needs to be for baskets in order to win, it doesnt have to be flashy, it just has to get there. My example: Chauncey Billups
Power Player: For me, this is any player who rather than shoot a 8 footer will force his way into the paint by any means necessary for his little 2 footer. example: Shaq on the Lakers
Highflyer: this is any player who rather than take the jumper or layup, goes for that dunk. He posterizes at will and there's not really much most people can do about it. Example: Shawn Marion or Amare pre-surgery

[hipn]

Shooter: FG%, Overall pts, clutch (maybe?)
Playmaker: High Assists #, finding the right person at the right time.

[nets4life]

shooter, primarily scores points from mid to long range shooting and must have a reasonable % and solid from the free throw line. Example: Ray Allen/Michael Redd

playmaker, a pass first player who will find the scrorer 85% of the time. Example Jason Kidd in his prime or Nash right now.

power, well described by illini but also contains a variety of good moving post moves (by that i mean drop step not the sky hook). Example Shaq Daddy

Highflyer, as iliini said. Example Vince at Toronto, he has fallen in love with the jumpshot since (no need for a "no he fell in love with a gay man" remark)

[Christopherson]

Shooter: This is a very subjective label which cannot be clearly defined by a stat as illini suggests. Some guys are good shooters but shoot lower percentages because they shoot very difficult shots on average (ie: Ray Allen). Some guys shoot high percentages because they only shoot close shots (ie: Carlos Boozer) Some guys shoot high percentages because they only shoot when they are wide open (ie: Brent Barry) Being a shooter is about consistantly making a high volume of difficult shots from the perimiter.

Playmaker Someone whose first objective is to get teammates involoved. (ie: not Iverson)

Power Player Someone who relies on their strength to overpower opponents rather than using finesse to get by them (ie: Amare or Dwight Howard)

Highflyer Someone who "plays above the rim" whether it is to dunk, block shots, or rebound. (ie: Josh Smith)

[Silas]

I think A shooter is somebody who is a very good 3pt shooter. If you are a great shooter, like Ray Allen, you're going to take WAY more 3 pointers than somebody like Tony Parker, who is just a guy who can make an open 3, he rarely takes a contested 3 pointer. To go by purely FG% is absolute bogus. Then you could Throw Beadriens and Alonzo Mourning in the Mix, just because they have a good FG%. There is so much more to it than that.

I think most everyone in here would agree that Ray Allen is one of the best, if not the best pure shooter in the NBA. His percentages are low because he's guarded twice as much as a normal player and he takes more shots because the team relies on him to make 3 pointers and tough jump shots.

On top of that, his jump shot is just better. He made 269 three pointers last season, and not just any guy can do that. He broke the record of Dale Ellis, who most everyone considers one of the better shooters in the recent past.

You can judge a player by stats. You can't judge a quality or style of play by stats. You have to actually watch them in motion to get an idea of what kind of player they are. People like Ray Allen and Michael Redd and Kyle Korver and Vladamir Radmonovic.

[---]

Shooter - A shooter is someone who is a threat when taking a jumpshot from anywhere on the court outside of the block. To a lesser extent, a shooter may be a threat from certain areas, eg. Richard Hamilton of 2004 (mid range). They will mostly look to make a move to get open, rather than drive the ball and try to score inside. They take advantage of height differences in the same way a post player would by getting "their" shot off over a shorter defender. Shooters have the ability to make tough jumpshots, and are a lock to hit the open shot. This makes them so deadly when on a team with a player who can draw more than one defender - leaving them open or making it easier to get open by working off screens, etc.

Examples of a shooter - Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, JJ Redick

Playmaker - A playmaker always looks to pass. They want to start the play, but not finish it. Playmakers are traditionally point guards because of the role the PG has in the game of basketball, being the "floor general". Playmakers have good passing skills and court vision, finding players for open scores that most other players wouldn't have seen, or would have reacted too late. They have an ability to see the play before it happens, where as most players tend to think of the their pass and thats it, a playmaker will look deeper and see what will happen when the player who they distribute the ball to passes themselves.

Examples of a playmaker - John Stockton, Steve Nash, Jason Kidd

Power Player - A power player uses their body, strength and/or size to score (or defend) more than most players. While some players like to use quickness (Allen Iverson) to blow by their defender and score an easy layup, or footwork (Tim Duncan) to make a move around their defender in the post for an open bucket, etc. Power players tend to use sheer strength to get their defender out the way for a clear lane to the hoop. Shaquille O'Neal of a few years back could score at will simply by backing his man down - no one was strong enough to push him away from the hoop.

Examples of a power player - Shaquille O'Neal, Amare Stoudemire, Dwight Howard


Highflyer - While the other 3 specialties have a great bearing on the outcome of a game, being a "highflyer" will have alot less of an impact based purely the specialty itself. Being a highflyer just means a slightly higher chance of finishing in traffic and the chance to hype up your team and crowd on wide open fast breaks. Highflyers basically wow the crowd with sheer athleticism and jumping ability. They can finish above the rim, make exciting and creative dunks and, if they play like a highflyer on defence, make big blocks sending the ball into the stands. The thing about a highflyer is they are not an immediate threat.

Examples of a highflyer - Vince Carter, Gerald Green, Josh Smith

[maes]

I think all of these terms can't be applied from stats, that's why they exist. They're used to describe playes when stats don't tell the whole story....you just gotta watch the games.


Shooter:
This almost always implies jump shooter. FG% is not a good measure of this, usually the best FG% is from post-up players like Shaq. Shaq has scored at a FG% of 58% (career), but is still an awful shooter.

Playmaker:
I disagree most on this term, this is not always a pass-first guy. Pass-first guys are always playmakers, but not all playmakers are pass first. Playmakers are the guy on the team that the offense revolves around. They have the burden of decision-making on what to do in each situation.

For example Paul Pierce is a playmaker. The Celts will try to get him the ball, and he has several options. Defenders try to body him will get posted up & he'll usually spin to the hoop, if given daylight he'll shoot it. If they cheat defenders on him, he'll pass out.

I'd call Pierce, Kobe, and Ray Allen all playmakers but all those guys average 5 apg or less.

I do agree traditionally PGs are the playmakers, but not always. John Paxson was the PG for the dynasty Bulls and he was most certainly not the Bull's playmaker, that was MJ & Pip.


Power Player/High Flyer: agreed on those.

[Christopherson]

I think its funny that someone starts a thread to spur some discussion and then never posts in his own thread.

[[Q]]

calling someone a "shooter" and "playmaker" in real life and in the context of NBA Live is different because they obviously have different meanings.

"Shooter" in NBA Live terms technically is someone with very high 3 pt, fg, and ft ratings, so it's someone with very good shooting mechanics. This is usually reserved for 3 pt marksmen like Korver, Allen, Lewis, Redd, Bird, Mike Miller, etc.

"Playmaker" in Live terms means someone who is able to perform behind the back and no-look passes, so guys that handle and pass well like Nash & kidd with all other PGs in the league as borderline playmakers.

Highflyers are good dunkers in the open court. Amare pre-surgery wouldn't fall under here, he would more likely fall under the power category because he doesn't exactly fly like Iguodala or Marion.

otherwise, in a "real world" context, you guys make good cases for the meaning of these terms in the real NBA

[Oznogrd]

I think its funny that someone starts a thread to spur some discussion and then never posts in his own thread.

I've been reading every word and for most of them i cant really argue other than the korver stuff, which i already argued. I dont think he's any good, sorry to the fans, but pretty technique does not an NBA player make. I will give him he's good at 3's...but if you can make a 3 with ease, why cant he make 2's? Or is it just he's open and smarter about his shot selection from 3 pt land etc. I'll edit this in a second with anything i need to say/disagree with

Shooter: just because someone takes easy shots doesnt mean they cant shoot, because arent you supposed to take the easiest shot possible in order to maximize your points in hopes of winning? I just dont think the definition of a shooter HAS to necessarily be someone who only shoots jumpers.

Playmaker: whoever brought up the point about its anyone who makes things happen, very valid point. It doesnt necessarily have to be about the passing. Hell, kobe's an obvious playmaker (dont quote assist stats at me of his, i dont care, he had half of LA's points last night, and i dont believe there is a lack of talent around him so thats not an excuse anymore) but he doesnt pass too often...i'm digging the different definitions, but i think PG's it is easier to see how they are playmakers since the other things people do are usually more subtle (picks, posting up)

Power: Saw nothing wrong with anything anyone said about this

Highflyer: i disagree on them not being able to take over a game like the others. I guess most highflyers are also good at other things (usually shooting/power) so you cant really say "the highflying" ability takes over necessarily. But i mean, if a guy can dunk through you (As marion can on some nights) etc. You have to change your entire defensive gameplan to compensate. While it is much harder, i still think they can be just as dangerous as shooters or power players in dominating a game

[Eugene]

I think "shooter" comes from the traditional "jumpshooter," so I think the tag should be limited to jumpshooters. Just because Shaq makes a high-percentage of shots, doesn't mean he's a shooter--his freethrow numbers alone attest to that much. Shooter has to have good form and consistency and range, i.e. Ray Allen, Steve Nash...

Scorer is more of an apt title for guys like Lebron, Iverson, Shaq, et al... people who just score points, be it inside, outside, wherever, but you wouldn't necessarily say had good shooting mechanics or consistency from range.

As far as playmakers go, you can make plays without necessarily getting assists. That is, plays are not limited to setting up others... but if you must limit it, I guess guys like Kidd, Nash, Paul are best playmakers, but I prefer to tag any big-time players like Billups, Bryant, et al, as playmakers, and Ben Wallace as defensive playmakers.

A corollary to that is Rip Hamilton wouldn't be considered a playmaker in my book, because he plays off the ball so much... likewise, I'd have a tougher time naming Reggie Miller or Dwight Howard, who are so much dependent (Howard at this point) on their teammates for their points.