Soooo the game is still the same

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Soooo the game is still the same

Postby ChrisCP3Paul on Sun Sep 20, 2015 2:44 am

They added more features, more animations...... these things are welcome...... but when the game is rotten from the core, what does it matter..... you're still jumping from one animation into the next, and when you're not doing that, well then you're sling-shotting to the hoop for a layup/dunk, or a jumper....
Nothing feels natural except a handful of animations (80% of them are trash sling shots with arcade physics)
Players all still feel identical hunchbacks, only difference you actually feel from player to player is top speed, and jump shot, that's it, aside from that you can't tell a quick PG from a slow Big.

And anyone just love the fact that the game can't even hold a steady 60fps ? in 2015!!!! :bowdown:
in Live 14 it would drop down and lock to 30fps in Baseline Low camera view, but now in 16 from what I see even in the basic angle it's hitching constantly and that smooth 60fps gameplay isn't even there....

People, please just give up all hope, these are issues that are the core of the game, you can be impressed with all their marketing and buzzwords if you're a sucka, but if you wanna keep it real, let's keep it real and leave Live behind, it's obvious this is a money grab from them I think even the guys working on the game feel the same way and are just being told what to do by the EA suits.
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Re: Soooo the game is still the same

Postby Pdub on Sun Sep 20, 2015 4:17 am

I don't know about that. It's so easy to trash EA and come up with reasons of "why they can't make a good game", etc. But we can't give up. I was incredibly frustrated by my first few experiences with the demo. I don't think it's the same game, though.

As for sling shot layups and dunks, the system they use seems to be the same they have always used. Each animation has a start point and an endpoint, and certain requirements need to be met in order for that animation to play out(i.e. clear path or not, what speed(or just moving or not) the player is moving, ratings, distance, and angle, animation packages, etc). Their path seems to be going beyond this, and hopefully they can just use the players input on whether to choose a type of layup or dunk with the players angle of attack, speed, and decision, while the results end up based on the context. So the player can make a good decision on their angle and choice of layup or dunk type, or they can be penalized with a charging foul or a wild bad attempt in traffic.

In 15, you just go to the basket and score, since the way EA tuned jump shots and inside defense made them less effective for many players. In the 16 demo there are some good collisions and sliders to increase or decrease those collisions when you are going to the basket or trying to finish. It's a lot better than the 15 clipping prevention style of having offensive players just move defenders arms out of the way.

Responsiveness is still an issue. I call it slippery slidery. I think this is why we can't tell a big man from a guard. The players have a tough time moving from a stand still or changing direction, as if their movement is based on a wheel or sphere, rather than balance, footwork, planting and explosiveness, and differentiation is lost. Big players should cover a lot of ground when they are moving and have less responsiveness while smaller players should cover a bit less, but have more responsiveness. Purely from the fact that smaller players legs are shorter and from a physical stand point, they are generally quicker when it comes to moving and changing direction. Some passes also take a long time to initiate and then complete, destroying creative possibilities. I am pretty sure that rebounding is predetermined at a certain point, even at times it looks like it could be a battle. There is no reason to cancel out my rebound attempt when I am not boxed out just because another player happened to be in the exact position of where the ball was going and I wasn't boxed out but heading right in that direction. I just walked into him as he started to jump. It decided my rebound attempt wasn't sim. I know they can improve it, though! There are spots in the game where it is immediately reponsive. So responsive that it catches me off guard and I end up in a position I didn't want to be or releasing a shot late, etc.

I had the hitches, slowdown and stutter when doing a pro am game against bots. I'd have to try playing offline to test if it was a server issue or something with the game. Remember last year when the game would oddly skip forward the gameplay with some kind of fade or blend effect when the ball was getting brought up half court? That was really odd.

I see the hunchback issue and if you look at the proam trailer, I think it's their shoulder blades and neck/shoulder line during certain animations when players are bent over a bit. Most of the upright animations don't how it.

I'll keep it real. Every game is a money grab. I heard that Live 15 sold around 200,000 copies globally. I would be surprised if that gets them even close to breaking even, while also considering revenue from micro-transactions. There is no reason to give up hope. The fact that you notice these recurring issues is the reason you should speak up in a more constructive manner. Most people don't even notice those details, they just say "Live is trash" which doesn't help anyone. I can yell at my monitor and talk trash about devs, but it accomplishes nothing.

This year, I am not buying the game until the responsiveness issue is resolved. It's the main thing that is keeping me from enjoying the game. I don't care how much it has improved or how great the other aspects and features of the game are. I can't enjoy the gameplay when I can press a button on the controller, go to my kitchen to make a sandwich and come back to see the outcome of the animation. The characters are supposed to represent professional athletes, but they perform like they are in a few inches of water or are wearing ankle braces. I have a feeling, once again, 2K found a way to improve their game with IK technology, allowing the feet to "grab" the floor so players can plant their feet when they want to change direction, providing both foot planting, and potentially better response. I'll have to wait and see, though.
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Re: Soooo the game is still the same

Postby mp3 on Sun Sep 20, 2015 5:05 am

Good read Patrick.

I myself am in two minds if I will buy on the release date or wait a month or so.

I am still working away but was able to play the demo on one of the guys xbox at the hotel and although I do see the similarities to live 15 with some updates I don't think that is a bad thing really if they are heading in the right direction.

For me my issue is that EA is getting to far away from the "nba" side and focusing everything on pro-am in which I know was at the expense Dynasty I was hoping for improvements there but that is what I am waiting on to see if and when I spend my money.

It's hard to compete with myleague imo
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Re: Soooo the game is still the same

Postby ChrisCP3Paul on Sun Sep 20, 2015 5:54 am

great response Pdub... I agree with your points

I'm just sick and tired of the same repetitive cycle of

"hey we know what was wrong last year, fixed this and that, new game check us out"

game comes out

"oh give us a while to fix it with patches"


patches come out, don't fix much

"don't worry guys we working on it for next year, just wait to see what we have in store HYPE HYPE HYPE"


rinse and repeat


I've said it before and I'll say it again, in those years they were not releasing Live THEY HAD A GRAND OPPORTUNITY to scrap their core engine and spend those years building something absolutely incredible that they could use throughout their whole sports lineup for a long time to come.
It could have fixed many MANY (I won't go as far to say all because I'm realistic) issues that we currently face with Live..
Instead they just brought back the same game with extra animations, from a creative standpoint that is literally the worst thing they could have done, but from a business point it's the best thing. and EA being EA, business trumps creative any every day of the week
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Re: Soooo the game is still the same

Postby Pdub on Sun Sep 20, 2015 6:38 am

Your right about the history of ea being business over creativity, otherwise they might have landed leftos as an engineer, or kept ScottOG. However, O'Brien did say that ea is fully committed to the longevity it takes to building this game, so it will take some patience. Even if that means this year's game doesn't sell as well as expected, the path they are on and the improvements they are making are significant. The future looks bright for Live, even if 16 doesn't turn out to be a slam dunk at the register.

One thing I like about Live's pro am is that people who are playing it like 2k's mypark are not succeeding in pro am like team players are. Good team defense is stopping one on one players.
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Re: Soooo the game is still the same

Postby Phreak50 on Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:56 am

I think when you use terms like arcade trash slingshots and also don't seem to realise the effort and optimizing a graphics engine requires to maintain a stable 60fps (remember almost NO current gen game of any genre is 60fps), it's hard to look at your post constructively.

Live 10 was the best Live game and 16 has improved on some of what 10 was great at and has it's own style in others.

It's not even close to being perfect but it is most certainly playable, enjoyable and a solid effort. If the game keeps improving (granted I think 15 to 16 is a much smaller jump than 14 to 15 was) it is going to be well worthwhile to check it out each year.

The things you mention about Live continuously doing over and over remind me of how I currently feel about 2K's gameplay. I won't go into them in a Live forum but there are quite a few of us that now prefer what this series brings.

There were some solid changes in both 14 and 15 with mid year patches so I am holding onto hope of some big fixes for 16 before even thinking about 17.

The biggest one for me is the momentum, or 'slidey'ness mentioned above. It hurts your guards because they can't stop on a dime and on the other hand makes the bigs feel opposite to how they really should (which should be slow and robotic-like).

Next is the rebounding. It feels unresponsive because it looks pre-determined. No sugar coating this one.

The ball physics which were good in 14 and great in 15 have reverted back to worse than either. The whole 'release the ball to physics' thing was initially a marketing gimmick in my mind but after playing 15 forever and even studying slow motion replays, you could see just how impressive the ball physics (especially during dribbling) really was. Now we have yoyo dribbling with the automated behind the back silliness when you bring the ball up the court (this seems to have carried over from NBA Street and needs to go in a patch) and some of the animations on drives now have the magic warping ball effect (and also ruin the foot planting animations the series worked hard on getting right).

It's tough because for me, 15 was fun and a real good step in the right direction. And while 16 improves a number of areas, it's sadly taken a step back in some as well (the ragdoll collisions I spoke so highly of seem to have been toned down to almost non-existent).
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Re: Soooo the game is still the same

Postby ChrisCP3Paul on Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:38 am

You have no choice but to take my post constructively because it's based on facts, and yea I admit bro I'm bitching a bit here and there but it's all facts I speak at the end of the day :mrgreen:
The fact you said no current gen game runs at 60fps is wrong, there are quite a few games that do that and they are all actually more graphically intensive than NBA Live is, since we're on Xbox one here take the new Forza 6 game that just came out that runs flawlessly at 60fps, and looks waaaaaay better than Live does.... Take even 2K which flawlessly runs at 60fps without a hitch, or hell does it even make sense to anyone that EA's own Fifa series run smoothly at a constant 60fps and actually has MORE than 10 players on the field like Live does yet it runs better ??
and all these games look better and are more graphically intensive than Live.... I could go on with the list but you get the point.


The bottom line and my point is all these issues we here are talking about will and CAN never be fixed as long as they use the same core engine that all these things run on, animations, physics, etc.... it's that simple.
It's why I don't see any hope until next gen, and I will literally quit sports gaming if they still try to run this on the next generation of consoles :lol:
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Re: Soooo the game is still the same

Postby Phreak50 on Sun Sep 20, 2015 6:57 pm

2K14 on PS4 had minor frame drops fyi. The game then downgraded the stadium haze and generally lighting and shadow effects to keep 15 smoother.

And FIFA is totally different than NBA Live. NBA would have 100's of more animations for starters, plus the players LOD does not pop in and out like FIFA (same as the grass on the field).

Next gen will be no different. Both games have had their core engine for 5+ years, regardless of how many 'brand new engine' claims they each make.

It's simply too expensive and risky to literally start fresh.

I'm still confused as to why you think Live 16 isn't smooth. You must be playing on some camera angle that makes it more susceptible because on the Live broadcast and ESPN camera angles there are almost zero drops in frame rate, bar for some jerkiness in cutscenes and out of bounds. Again, for a game that has probably the best looking player models in any sports game, great lighting and textures, it's an impressive achievement to get it as smooth as it even is.
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Re: Soooo the game is still the same

Postby mp3 on Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:49 pm

I actually like the new camera angle for live 16 it take me back to 95-96 era and it ran pretty smooth in my opinion
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