slimm44 wrote:nyflava2k9 Are you using any of the information you obtained from me a year ago? If so, please stop. If your answer is no, I'd like to know the formulas you are using and how you came up with them.
At this point, I'm having a hard time seeing how you were able to do what you are doing without any influence from my spreadsheet or using it directly.
I hope you aren't using my work without asking for permission.
Tommyhtc wrote:For all parties involved in this, I obviously am not in the know enough to judge what exactly happened between you guys, and definitely won't be saying whose fault it is or who's to blame more, but can we all just get along? Not saying people should be free to use each other's works, but it looks like nyflava2k9 has not been unreasonable. But what I see as more important is that with Hawk23 back, URB/UBR are literally the two remaining high quality roster projects still being updated today. You guys are what we have left when it comes to huge roster projects for 2k14. Recently, we are also lucky to have another passionate modder nyflava2k9 join us and contribute to this niche community and I'm glad he's here. Let's not start throwing dirt at this point and discourage anyone from contributing to the modding community for 2k14? I won't go as far as saying everyone should collaborate or make this open source, but at this point, let's potentially consider setting aside our differences "for the greater good", because this is really a small community that will only get smaller?
slimm44 wrote:Sure, I see where you guys are coming from. The community is better served with multiple projects and accurate sim stats do help the gamer's experience. No question about either.
The compromise is to have two separate projects.
I would have said yes to allowing my work to be used if it was obtained honestly and transparently.
Since it was done through deceit and without permission, the answer is and will be no.
Mavs4Life and Tommyhtc, I've sent you both a PM. I will not directly advertise our mod in another modder's thread.
Dee4Three wrote:slimm44 wrote:Sure, I see where you guys are coming from. The community is better served with multiple projects and accurate sim stats do help the gamer's experience. No question about either.
The compromise is to have two separate projects.
I would have said yes to allowing my work to be used if it was obtained honestly and transparently.
Since it was done through deceit and without permission, the answer is and will be no.
Mavs4Life and Tommyhtc, I've sent you both a PM. I will not directly advertise our mod in another modder's thread.
Slimm, if he didn't use your exact work.... how is it stealing?
Many are influenced by others around here, Christ... the UBR got me into modding to begin with. I wouldn't even be on the NLSC if I hadn't discovered it in 2013. So if he's influenced by your work (Which is a compliment) but uses his own ratings/tendencies, how can you tell him that he can't do that? He may use your ideas as a baseline (LIke, having a attribute low to increase the likelihood of X stat being realistic), but how are you going to police that? That is something we ALL do.
We are community, we work together. I love both projects, I play the crap out of you and Skos 2K13 URB, and I have the UBR installed on 2K14 and play that. I don't see anything wrong with what he is doing. We are all influenced by eachother, you can't really tell someone to not make accurate ratings/tendencies because you think they were influenced by your work. That's not fair.
slimm44 wrote:Dee4Three wrote:slimm44 wrote:Sure, I see where you guys are coming from. The community is better served with multiple projects and accurate sim stats do help the gamer's experience. No question about either.
The compromise is to have two separate projects.
I would have said yes to allowing my work to be used if it was obtained honestly and transparently.
Since it was done through deceit and without permission, the answer is and will be no.
Mavs4Life and Tommyhtc, I've sent you both a PM. I will not directly advertise our mod in another modder's thread.
Slimm, if he didn't use your exact work.... how is it stealing?
Many are influenced by others around here, Christ... the UBR got me into modding to begin with. I wouldn't even be on the NLSC if I hadn't discovered it in 2013. So if he's influenced by your work (Which is a compliment) but uses his own ratings/tendencies, how can you tell him that he can't do that? He may use your ideas as a baseline (LIke, having a attribute low to increase the likelihood of X stat being realistic), but how are you going to police that? That is something we ALL do.
We are community, we work together. I love both projects, I play the crap out of you and Skos 2K13 URB, and I have the UBR installed on 2K14 and play that. I don't see anything wrong with what he is doing. We are all influenced by eachother, you can't really tell someone to not make accurate ratings/tendencies because you think they were influenced by your work. That's not fair.
I shared with him everything he needed to do it under the explicit understanding that he would not use that information for another project without my permission. By his own admission, he was simply not able to produce accurate sim stats before I shared with him what to do. It wasn't until he had access to my formulas, ideas, spreadsheets, and instructions that he was able to.
It's not an issue of me influencing him, it's an issue of him taking my knowledge through deceit and using it in a way that I did not give permission to. You are right, we all influence each other. However, there is a massive difference between being influenced by someone (usually indirectly) and having someone share what they know because you lead them to believe you are going to help you with a project then they stop communicating and try to take the knowledge that you gave them and use it in a way they promised they wouldn't.
I've said this already, but if he would have been straight with me I would have allowed him to use the knowledge I gave him. He didn't have the decency to do that. Rather, he intended to do the exact opposite until I responded. That's a violation of the written rules of this forum and the unwritten rules of modding...you simply don't take someone else's knowledge and use it without permission. In any other realm it's theft. To reiterate, we're not talking about a simple process that takes a step or two. Figuring out how to "crack the code" of the sim engine then apply it to our project took me YEARS to do. Thousands of hours. There is NO WAY I'm letting someone steal that. Not happening.
I'm interested to know if you agree with where I'm coming from or if you still disagree.
slimm44 wrote:If what you are saying is true, he would not have promised to not use my work without permission in any other project. He obviously knew what he was doing and knew that if he didn't get my permission to use what I shared with him it would be considered stealing. There is no other logical reason for why he would start the conversation off in that manner.
Dee4Three wrote:slimm44 wrote:If what you are saying is true, he would not have promised to not use my work without permission in any other project. He obviously knew what he was doing and knew that if he didn't get my permission to use what I shared with him it would be considered stealing. There is no other logical reason for why he would start the conversation off in that manner.
He is not using the exact work, and I don't think he would have posted the work in here so openly knowing you are still on the forums, if he thought it was stealing.
He's using your influence in his own work.
slimm44 wrote:Dee4Three wrote:slimm44 wrote:If what you are saying is true, he would not have promised to not use my work without permission in any other project. He obviously knew what he was doing and knew that if he didn't get my permission to use what I shared with him it would be considered stealing. There is no other logical reason for why he would start the conversation off in that manner.
He is not using the exact work, and I don't think he would have posted the work in here so openly knowing you are still on the forums, if he thought it was stealing.
He's using your influence in his own work.
All he had to do was PM me on FB, on NLSC, or post in our thread.
nyflava2k9 wrote:So let me get this straight... it's a problem that I got an idea from you to make a spreadsheet? Even though it uses my own ratings formulas and is completely different than yours? Because that is all that you contributed to my work. Help me and others to understand what exactly I "deceived" you on and stole from you? What exactly did I use of yours that needed permission?
Like, Wow... Lol
I thought you/we were better than that.
Let's be clear: As the [private] messages you posted show, what I asked you for was to use peripheral ratings and tendencies such as spin layup, hook shots etc. for my 2016 & 17 rosters. It's right there in writing. Basically, topical ratings I could've easily came up with on my own or even just left alone as they have no bearing on statistical outputs (which is the whole focus of my rosters). Those fields, which admittedly help polish a roster, are honestly not really of importance to me personally when it comes to my work. Me asking you to use those kind of ratings and tendencies was simply to add a level of polish to my work that had already been mostly completed at that point.
You, I and anyone else with even mid-level knowledge of roster editing know the only ratings that matter for overalls/statistical outputs (what I focus on) are shot ratings, free throws, layups/inside, reb ratings, assists, steals, blocks, OFF/DEF Awareness and to an extent, durability as well. Tendencies such as inside, close, med, 3pt, touches and fouls also affect statistical outputs (although they do not affect overalls). I've known this for years as it was mostly the same on console. You didn't teach me that. Every rating and tendency that I just named, the only ones of importance when it comes to statistical outputs, the whole point of my rosters, I came up with up with those my own.
Anyone, just by simply looking at the spreadsheets you sent me in comparison to the ones I made will easily see they are not the same. Not only do they not look the same, there are clearly more statistical categories incorporated in mine and the formulas are different. Also, your spreadsheets were for 1960s and 70s rosters. Mines was for the 2017 roster. The only similarity is that they are both spreadsheets that covert stats into ratings. That is it. If you invented that method and are the only person doing things that way, kudos to you. I assumed that must be something all mass roster editors do to save time. My mistake if I assumed wrong. I never even thought that much into it honestly as it was so insignificant to me in the grand scheme of what I was doing. I figured that the content in your spreadsheets was what was of importance, not the spreadsheet concept itself. Content in which I have never used to this day, might I add.
But make no mistake...
Your work didn't make my work possible. You simply showed me a quicker way to apply MY WORK to my rosters and gave me some other pointers along the way.
Since you want to "check my math" and me (so you think) for all to see - it's pretty simple. Simple math and scaling. For example, in 2K's default roster the lowest 3 point rating is 25 and the highest is 99 of course. When I simmed seasons using the 2K14 default roster, the highest 3P% I consistently saw was 47% if I'm not mistaken. So, naturally, I figured that must mean 47% = 99 rating (or something close to it) and 0% = 25 rating. The difference (scale) between 25 and 99 is 74. Now divide 74 (highest possible number on scale) by 47 (highest 3 point percentage I consistently saw) and you'll get 1.5 (rounded). Since [basketballreference.com] lists 3pt% stats as ”.000” vs "00.0", I then multiplied 1.5 by 100 which equals out to 150. Still Keep in mind that the lowest you can go in 3pt rating is 25...
That lead me to the 3pt Rating formula of:
(150 * 3pt%) + 25 = 3pt rating
For example:
(150 * .470) + 25 = 97
(150 * .400) + 25 = 85
(150 * .300) + 25 = 70
This isn't always exact as with most players I then still have to go in game, run sims and tweak the rating in game until I get the consistent, desired results. For some players, I also subjectively factor in games played, 3PA and career 3pt% until I get a more deserving rating and/or desirable result.
In did a similar process with most other ratings/tendencies as well.
I've ran literally thousands of sims with my rosters... Quitting to menu...Tweaking a rating of a player by a point or two just because he is producing more/less in real life. Doing this over and over again. "Kevin Durant is getting too many rebounds versus real life, let me go back and subtract from the rebound rating I came up with for him."... This is my thought process. This is how my work and my mind works. I used to do all that in game at first. I calculated ratings with my phones calculator, player by player, before I knew about spreadsheets having the functionality to do that. Do you have any idea how long that took me? Try multiplying what you do by countless hours. I have been doing this since way before PC, way before joining NLSC in 2013 and even much further before knowing who you were.
Before I even became familiar with you, your work, or anyone elses like it for that matter, I had 22 out of 30 teams completed already for my 2016 rosters. Refer to my announcement on page 216 of this thread that clearly shows me posting screen shots with accurate stats well before we were introduced. Yes, coming across others yours and others ideas helped hone and lead to my own ideas. But who here hasn't doesn't done the same? I thought that's what the point of a community is. My mistake.
You paint this picture of me weaseling my way into your good graces to steal your work and claim it as my own behind your back. I'm a grown man bro. You really believe me taking time out of my day was all in deceit just to steal your techniques? How does that sound bro? I didn't even end up releasing my 2017 roster last year which should show you the level of importance to me. And, how much more transparent could I have been with my intentions? I literally messaged you through out, sent you a copy of my spreadsheet and credited you for your ideas.
Let's look big picture though... This is a going on 5 year old basketball video game we're talking about here. Yes, it's a game I love to play and tinker with when I can. But seriously, it's not that deep. I obviously appreciate the artistic value of this game and your work but let's just keep things in perspective here. All this does is make the idea of modding a 5 year old, last gen basketball game seem even more wacker and less fun than what it already is. To add, it hurts me personally to even have to talk to someone who has contributed so much this community in this manner, someone who I personally felt was a solid dude, all just to defend my self against BS accusations that could've easily been disproved by yourself in less than 5 minutes.
You sent your message to my personal Facebook even. Like, why not give me a chance to even respond to that? You obviously know how to reach me after I trusted you with my personal information. You have not a single piece of proof that I stole your work. You know how I know that? Because it didn't happen. You're going off of a hunch... (Or... A grudge against me or someone else I wonder?...)
Whatever this is, it is misguided. I did what I did to help you out of the kindness of my heart and solely in the interest of the community and a game I happen to love playing when time permits. I supported your work with no questions asked even after you gave no support whatsoever to my project and borderline tried to outright discourage my work. I never once complained. I took it in stride. Still helped you. I'm glad the messages you posted show this. Yet, I'm the one who owes you something? Keep in mind, I'm not getting paid for this. I'm not getting cool points for this. I have a life and a family. You more than anyone else should be able to relate to what I do. The research. The hours. All for others.
Like others have stated, let's just get back to what we do. All this extra stuff is nonsensical. Like I said in my last post, if there happens to be anything similar in our mods, something I deem may have maybe been an idea of yours, I'll remove it asap. So next time before you message me directly, to an account with not only my name but also my photo, using words like "deceit", recognize I'm a grown man that you are talking to. Your status on NLSC, your work, your respect go out the window at that point. At least try having some receipts to be back your claims... because I certainly do. Beyond that, I'm sure anybody on here who has both mods could've easily told you that the ratings, tendencies and statistical outputs in both mods are completely different for the 2016 and 2017 rosters (which are literally the only content I've uploaded to date other than a Bobby Hurley CF years ago).
That is all that needs to be said. I will be positing screenshots to clear my name and that is it. I apologize to NLSC, Andrew, Hawk23 and anyone who has had to watch this all play out. I tried my best to stay neutral in what played out on here upon Hawk23's/UBR's return. I literally hadn't been on here in a year, saw Hawk23/UBR was back, walked into what was unfolding and made it a point to stay away from all of that. But I will not have the hard work of my self and others negated.
I will not entertain this any further on this thread and continue take away from UBR. If you feel the need to continue this conversation, even after I've destroyed any argument you had, feel free to do so on your thread.
slimm44 wrote:But it took you 18 days to come up with your formulas?
OK, dude.
Whatever you say.
slimm44 wrote:We really don't need to go any further than this, though. You offered data entry. You didn't even know where to find the stats, as in one post you talked about getting them from Bleacher Report and I asked if you meant Basketball-Reference, at which you replied yes. The mid-level skills were not in developing formulas or figuring out 2k's scales, it was in data entry. You were asking for help on how to enter data faster than cell-by-cell.
"Hey man, let me start by saying I'm very happy to get to work with you. As I stated before, you have my full focus. As far as my capabilities, I don't have paid RedMC so I can only edit player tabs. I'd say my skills are mid level as I know how to update the player tabs but I'm sure there are some techniques you can help with to make that process go alot quicker. As far as what I can help with, knowing what my capabilities are, what can I lend a hand with specifically? Is it more converting actual stats into ratings using your methods or has that conversion already been done and the data just needs to be plugged in? Also, I tried downloading the spread sheet you posted explaining your ratings and tendency formulas but it said the file may have been deleted. Is there a way you can get that to me? Also if you can point me in the direction of tutorials you may deem helpful to do mass editing and help speed up the process on editing it would be much appreciated. I am at your direction, so don't be afraid to delegate anything you can use help with. Any questions, rough draft or completed rosters will go through you for approval. None of this gets released without your permission and will be strictly used for URB."
Read that last sentence again for emphasis.
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