One Wish: Improvements in Dynasty Mode

[fluidmind]

I have just one request, ONE!!! You can leave the game completely as it is, except for one change. You’ve made one heck of a game, EA, really, I love it…!! But there is one thing you need to do in Live 11 to make me the happiest man on the planet… ONE!!! … Only ONE!!

A BETTER DYNASTY MODE!!!

I love playing the game. How it has developed from 08 to 09 and to the formidable 10, which is now constantly spinning around in my Xbox, is amazing. But the changes from 08 till now have been mostly (much needed) in-game improvements. I love you for that. It was the right place to focus. Now 95% of the in-game errors have been fixed, the game flow is magnificent and the graphics and animations are simply astonishing. Time to focus on the game that takes place outside the arena!!! I have five wishes:

1. Player development
2. Training
3. Injuries
4. Stats
5. Trades

1. Player development:
In my current Dynasty my players are only developing at the end of the season. My monthly reports show no developments at all! This obviously needs fixing… But even if it worked, I still feel that the user should be able to affect player development. It should be determined based on player talent, player age, training performance, playing time, on-court efficiency, etc. This way, there will also be a huge incentive to play the bench during the season. Currently my five starters play 90% of the minutes. I am thinking a point system, where each training or in-game accomplishment generates some skill points that can be distributed by the user on different skills. And regarding pricing: It should generally cost fewer skill points to upgrade a very young and talented player, and it should cost more skill points to upgrade a ability from 93 to 94 than going from 52 to 53.

2. Training:
The current “hangar” training is definitely a great invention, but it can be improved. It could include tutorials on specific moves, which the 2K-series have been very good at implementing. It could also include more exercises – 3pt shooting or just shooting practice from different zones and in different situations would be awesome. But what is needed the most is a purpose! Why would I spend time training my players. The green arrows at the end of a training session shows which players have performed better than “expected”. But do their performance affect their development? Is chemistry improved? Training mode needs a better integration with the rest of the game features…

3. Injuries:
None of my players have ever been injured. NONE! We need that in Live 11! Both longer term injuries costing players a longer stretch of games and smaller bruises in games, where players will have to sit out for a couple of minutes before they are able to return to action. How easily they get injured should be based on real life injury frequency numbers and player age.

4. Stats:
Basketball is a stats Mekka! As a fan you love stats and commentators talk about stats all the time. Whether we like it or not, stats has become the way we measure teams and players. And if there is one thing a Dynasty player loves, it is to compare his team and players to the others around the league. Currently, I have to set the “Sim quarter length” to 5 and my own quarter-lengths to 3 to make the other team’s performances (in points) be somewhat similar to mine. But when I win an MVP award, or if my team leads the league in 3pts made, I have a hard time celebrating! It is just because the “sim quarter length” is set the way it is… I am always hopelessly behind in rebounds, steals and blocks because the computer-controlled teams play 8 more minutes per game! You need the teams to perform realistically according to a simple “divide-by-twelwe-multiply-by-quarter-length-chosen-by-the-user” function, so that the “sim quarter length” phenomenon can be buried once and for all. And when I say realistically, I mean according to video-game-numbers and not real-life numbers. Because these two things are very different …!

5. Trades
Not a major wish, since you have already done a pretty good job here. The “trading block” was a good invention!!! The ability to make three-way trades and include more than three players per team in a deal would be great improvements for Live 11. Also, some more advanced trades suggested in the trade block, would be a nice addition. Currently, it seems like only one-for-one deals are suggested, and if the salaries don’t quite match, the computer looks for an additional player with the right salary to include. It would for example never suggest a trade, where two average players can be traded for one good player and a scrap player (ex: Deng and Noah for Melo and Coby Carl). And there are many other interesting trade combinations, which would be considered by both teams, but are not suggested on the “block”.

That concludes my list! I would love to see just 2 or 3 of these things improved in Live 11. I know that EA people read this blog, so do me a favor and consider the above suggestions!

As for the rest of you: Please comment, correct my suggestions if you think they suck, come up with your own… No EA-bashing, “Live sucks compared to 2K” or “nothing ever happens anyway” talk. Let’s make this thread interesting, positive and forward looking! We are all on the same page. We want a great Dynasty Mode in Live 11!!!

[Andrew]

Welcome to the Forum! That was certainly an excellent post to introduce yourself with, I hope you'll enjoy your time here and be with us for a while.

Being a huge Dynasty geek myself, I could not agree more with your post. A couple of things I'd add to the stats and trades points, the sim engine really needs an overhaul in NBA Live 11. DNA has been great for gameplay but the new ratings haven't meshed very well with the sim engine, to the point where simulated stats in NBA Live 10 are way off. Scaling for shorter quarter lengths is important but at the very least, 12 minute quarters should produce realistic, life-like results. Currently that's not the case across the board, fixing this would greatly improve Dynasty Mode.

As for the trades, I agree that an expanded trade interface with more options and more frequent 2-for-1, 2-for-2 offers and so forth would be good (though the CPU does propose such trades in my experience). A big thing for me and a lot of other Dynasty players it seems is the logic of player movement. Stars get traded a bit too often, that needs to be toned down or some settings/sliders added to control the frequency of CPU trades, disable them altogether if desired, and prevent too many stars from moving year-to-year...especially in trades that seem to be made for the sake of having trades between CPU teams, don't make much sense or are quite lopsided. Added functionality such as the ability to toggle between player salaries, contract length and team interest are a must.

I'd also like to see the return of the traditional Reorder Roster menu, as it's much easier to reorder the lineup with that than the Player Rotation screen. The Rotation screen also seems to cause some problems with the CPU teams fielding some very unusual starting lineups, such as Ilgauskas starting at centre with Shaq starting at power forward for the Cavs.

[|)e8*]

They should really add Tendencies like in 2K. I mean Travis Diener is the second best Scorer with 15 ppg in the Mavs in my Dynasty

[fluidmind]

First of all: Thanks for the great welcome!!!

Andrew and D8: Great input. Many of the things mentioned are just so obvious and impossible to disagree with. It is just a matter of, whether Dynasty Mode gets prioritized by the developer team this year or not. Last year was in-game-year, now i just so badly hope it's become dynasty-year in NBA Live World. I have a few comments:

The simulated stats should definately be more realistic and why games constantly end 132-152 when playing 12 minute quarters is just beyond my belief. Another thing is individual stats: Ben Gordon and DJ Augustin should not emerge as serious MVP candidates in the 09-10 season. It should be James, Wade, Howard, Durant and a maybe a crazily talented newcomer on the short-list every year for the next five years at least. I am not sure I am crazy about the idea of preventing the user of letting Travis Diener be his teams second best scorer, if that is what he wants. If I am a fan of a specific player, I want to trade for him, practice with him like crazy in the hangar, build him up, and make sure he breaks out to be the superstar he never became in real life . Not everything has to be as in real life, there is a video-game-factor that should not be eliminated: The possibility to take the future in a new direction.

Andrew, you are right on point with the trading system. The ability to toggle between contracts, salaries and team interest is a big "must" which I completely forgot. Guess I have just gotten used to a difficult trading process. The reorder rosters is a great idea. Much more simple. The ability to assign playing time should be kept, though. And the unusual starting lineups is another major problem. Shaq or one of the Lopez-twins at PF!!! Just leave them at high post and run their defender up the floor for a possible transition basket... Have also seen Kobe as a team's starting PG for three seasons in a row... So you're right on the money. That's definately another issue.

Another thing I wanted to discuss: I saw the wish-list yesterday where I read, that people wanted Bird-rights, 10 day contracts and more advanced trading stuff implemented in the game. I really don't know about that! Don't you think it would make the trading-system too complicated? I don't even fully understand the Bird-rights phenomenon after having followed the NBA intensively for 5-6 years... I think you have to constantly think about: how much will it improve the game vs. how much more complicated - and thus harder for users to play - will it make the game? Any oppinions...???

[Andrew]

Bird rights and the mid level exception are already represented in the game albeit in simplified terms, so I don't think it would cause too many problems (they're in the Wishlist basically to stress that that kind of realism is still wanted). 10 day contracts shouldn't complicate matters too much, in-game guides and documentation could always help explain these things for people unfamiliar with those aspects of the salary cap. And of course, if the option is there to disable salary cap restrictions and the like, anyone who doesn't want to bother with those things would be able to play without them. The ability to re-sign your own free agent when you're over the cap - the basic exception that Bird rights grant - is definitely something that should be represented, as it's both functional and realistic. And as I said, it's in the game already so it shouldn't cause too much stress.

On the subject of training any player into a superstar, on that part I would have to disagree and I'm sure others would too. Most people tend to crave as much realism as possible and the ability to turn a scrub into a superstar by repetitive training is something a lot of people don't really want to see. If nothing else, it eliminates challenge if it's too easy to max out a player's ratings through training so while I'd prefer training to be more effective, I'd also want it grounded in reality. But of course, this is another situation where there could be different settings so that everyone could tailor the game to their specific needs.

However, I would like to be able to enter the 5-on-5 scrimmage whenever I want during a Dynasty Mode. Even if it doesn't boost any abilities, I'd like to be able to practice with my team whenever I want to get a feel for my players and work out strategies, especially following a trade. I'd favour being able to train more often than in NBA Live 10, perhaps assigning time as in NBA Live 06, while being able to practice with my team in the gameplay sense (the scrimmages) whenever I like.

As far as realistic stats go, I usually can get realistic scores and stats when playing twelve minute quarters and Player DNA has been pretty good in getting players to play more like their real life counterparts, but it no longer translates to simulation very well. As I said before, if that can be resolved then Dynasty Mode would take a leap forward right there. I mentioned the trading logic before, it's also worth mentioning the All-Star and award winners selection logic as an element that needs to be fine tuned. Some of the results are peculiar from time to time, to say the least.

Assigning playing time is a good idea and I was glad to see it added in NBA Live 07 but it's never worked out quite as intended, because of the CPU's weird lineups (I see you've experienced your fair share of them) and the awkward way in which we change the starting lineup. The reorder roster screen is much simpler and should be the main way in which we change our lineup for gameplay and simulation, with the rotation/playing time function taking on a secondary role and working as it ideally should. That's a setup that could work and should work out as intended if implemented properly.

Dynasty Mode should be a rich and immersive experience, that replicates the real NBA with as much realism as possible while allowing us to create our own reality (for something that follows the NBA season more closely, we now have Dynamic Season which I think is a valuable alternative). That wasn't really the case in NBA Live 10 but now that gameplay is at a point where minor tweaks, improvements to the post game and animations would suffice in a satisfying experience in NBA Live 11, attention certainly needs to be focused on the game modes and Dynasty Mode should be at the top of the list. I know a single player mode like Madden's Superstar Mode or My Player in NBA 2K10 is a popular wish and something that should be implemented in NBA Live at some point, but Dynasty remains an important element of the game and really needs to be improved just as urgently as a single player career mode needs to be added, if not more so. There's some good stuff in Dynasty already but some of it isn't working as well as it should and there's a lot that can be done to enhance it. Here's hoping that happens in NBA Live 11.

[Axel The Great]

Also, during games (not just in dynasty mode), the CPU teams only use 7-8 players out of 12! I know that in real life there are players that sit on the bench for whole games, but to only use 7 players, and have some players play the full game is just unrealistic. I think Live 11 should fix that too. I couldn't agree more with fixing the sim engine. In my Rockets dynasty, Tim Duncan is averaging only 7 ppg! I think for Live 11, the game scores, and player sim stats should be fixed for Dynasty Mode.

[Andrew]

I thought the substitution logic was a bit better pre-patch in NBA Live 10, mainly because of the greater use of secondary positions and the CPU's willingness to move players already on the floor over to their secondary position to sub another player in. However, there was still a tendency to underutilise the bench.

[fluidmind]

Dynasty Mode should be a rich and immersive experience, that replicates the real NBA with as much realism as possible while allowing us to create our own reality (for something that follows the NBA season more closely, we now have Dynamic Season which I think is a valuable alternative).

That is the line of the century right there!!! I could never have formulated it that way, since I am from Denmark and my English-skills are limited, but that is exactly what I would have said!!! . The interesting question is therefore: Where is the golden limit between NBA replication and "creating our own reality"?

My take: When playing in Dynasty Mode, only the first couple of years smell a bit like real-life-NBA. If fixed, Lebron would still be the MVP, Dwight still the rebounding and shot-blocking beast, Lakers, Cleveland, Boston and Orlando still the championship favorites etc.. After two seasons, this (or much of this) changes in real life, and should too in NBA Live. If thereafter, the league in NBA Live does not resemble real-life-NBA anyway, why not let the user affect the development? Why not let him train a player from 56 to 89 over a period of 3-4 years or put customized players in the draft-class etc.? Dragic's skill level in 09 was 56, and it would not surprise me if it was above 80 two seasons from now. It happens in real life too, and it is impossible to guess who will suddently have a break-out year. Who expected Rondo, Hickson or Blatche to become such good players... Nobody! But it happens!

So why not let the user devote all of his staff's resources to training a 28-year old mid-level player, of which he is a huge fan, into a top-10 player over a period of a couple of years? I don't see why not... But should it be possible to coach a 30-year old has-peaked-player like Shawn Marion into league MVP? Never! On the other hand, shouldn't it be possible to see a player fall from stardom if he is not coached well, if he misses a year of practice due to injuries, if he is benched for longer stretches of time, or if the coaching staff sucks and as a result fails to implement him into the system? Sure! That happens all the time, ask Hedo, Gordon, Illgauskas, Baron Davis and Hill.

It is about finding the right balance between the two poles. But I will definately advocate for a certain amount of user freedom and creativity. As you said, Andrew, if people are after completely realistic NBA-simulation, play the Dynamic Season!!

[Andrew]

Basically, the players should perform as they would in real life in the hands of the CPU. Their simulated stats should reflect what you'd expect to see of them in real life and when you play them, they should play like their real life counterparts and be capable of having the same kind of performances. Likewise, I think the players you're controlling also have to have realistic abilities; for example, I don't think you should be able to decide that Shaq is a three point shooter and be able to knock down threes with him or train him up so that he can hit threes. Placing such limitations not only keeps a sense of realism but also a sense of challenge because you've got to play to your team's strengths and abilities.

Likewise, ideally you shouldn't be able to take a benchwarmer and turn them into the MVP too easily, otherwise there's little point in having player ratings or distinguishing between stars and scrubs. If it's too easy to max out a player's ratings then I think that would get boring, because the unpredictable nature of player development in real life makes for a challenge in video games as well. At least, that's my take on it. I'd like Dynasty Mode to be as realistic as possible.

As far as the concept of merging a fictional reality with what you'd expect to see in real life, that would come in the way of being able to develop players as you see fit by focusing on certain young players with good development potential, as well as making your own trades and signings with the limitation of the salary cap, or a simplified version of it (but include the option to turn it off in case people would prefer to really simplify things).

Now, the further you get into Dynasty Mode, the more of a fictional reality it becomes and that's where it's harder to hold the game to a real life standard...though I would suggest that the generated players still perform at a level that you'd expect of the real stars of tomorrow, for example reasonable stats for the league leaders and the like. But for those first few years where real players are the majority, I'd prefer to see feasible performance and results. Obviously there's some guesswork with player development and decline, but educated guesses could be made.

Getting back to training players for a second, I agree that you should have the opportunity to develop players into stars and that that's an important part of Dynasty Mode. I just think there has to be certain limits on what can be achieved, particularly within one season, with different development potential for each player. There are already hidden attributes that govern development potential but I'd perhaps take it a step further and place so certain restrictions on players so that they have different limits in different areas. Like I said, it wouldn't be realistic if you could make Shaq a three point shooter just by running him through three point shooting drills throughout a season, so perhaps there could be some sort of cap on his three point rating.

Basically, to keep a sense of realism and challenge, I don't think you should be able to turn one of the worst players into the league into a maxed out superstar just by repetitive training or otherwise turn a player into something they could probably never be, with logical limitations (such as limited maximum three point shooting abilities for big men with a poor shooting stroke). The situations you put forward though certainly strike me as reasonable and realistic however. Really it's about balance, player development should be possible and attainable but not to the point where it's too easy to max out a player who started out as one of the worst in the league.

So if I had to sum it up, I'd say Dynasty Mode should represent as much of the real NBA as possible, simplified where necessary and with the ability to turn off certain features depending just how deep an experience you want. Everything should be set up for the user to play realistically if desired, while retaining the potential to segue into an alternate reality of sorts, with an element of fantasy I guess. So by all means, keep that Fantasy Draft option in there for people who like to reshuffle the league.

[dascoot]

I get sick when Derrick Rose only averages 4 -7 assists a game for me in the dynasty mode. I am still on Live 09 where i have

C- Javier Carlos ( compared to Tyson Chandler)

PF- David Lee

SF- Chase Homer ( compared to Carmelo Anthony)

SG- Dwyane Wade

PG- Derrick Rose


Rose only seems to average 7.0 APG per year and I would think he would average at least 9.0 to 10. Better stats would be great. I would like to not only during the draft but during the season see a player comparison so i'd get an idea who to go for before draft night. I think you forgot one thing that needs to be implented in the dynasty mode which is saving during the offseason.

[shadowgrin]

I get sick when Derrick Rose only averages 4 -7 assists a game for me in the dynasty mode.
Rose only seems to average 7.0 APG per year and I would think he would average at least 9.0 to 10.

Watchoo talkin' 'bout willis?

Derrick Rose APG (in real life):
Regular Season
2009 - 6.3
2010 - 6.0

Playoffs
2009 - 6.4
2010 - 7.2

[Andrew]

Much as I like Rose, shadowgrin's right here. Players like Nash and CP3 averaging only 7 or 8 apg is a bigger problem.

[phmsales]

would be amazing if ea add a player search feature. for example, if my team is very good at 3 point shots , but it doesnt have a low-post defender, i should be able to search players
with: a good average of blocks and rebound per game, size, strength...
is just to illustrate; but would be much better than look each team and try to find what kind of player i want

[Axel The Great]

IDK if someone mentioned this before, but when a player retires, have him coach a team a few years later, with the ability for coaches to switch teams and retire that is.

[Andrew]

would be amazing if ea add a player search feature. for example, if my team is very good at 3 point shots , but it doesnt have a low-post defender, i should be able to search players
with: a good average of blocks and rebound per game, size, strength...
is just to illustrate; but would be much better than look each team and try to find what kind of player i want

Technically we can already do that with sortable stats/ratings functions on the player stats screens but I guess that could come in handy.

IDK if someone mentioned this before, but when a player retires, have him coach a team a few years later, with the ability for coaches to switch teams and retire that is.

It's something that's been brought up before, it'd be a nice feature to have. Still, simply being able to hire and fire head coaches, even there's a coaching free agent pool with just a couple of real coaches and some fictional ones generated by the game would be an improvement on not being able to hire and fire them at all. Although if there is a coaching free agent pool, then I guess you could have selected retired players go into that pool fairly easily.

[Axel The Great]

Yeah, it'd be cool to see someone like Kobe coach the Lakers, or Yao coach the Rockets.

[Andrew]

Of course, it depends whether hiring and firing the head coach is just an aesthetic feature or whether coaches have an impact on the game. If it's the former then no problem, it's just utilising the player's name and face. However, if head coaches have ratings and an impact on the game, then there has to be a method for player abilities translating into coaching abilities. That'd make things a bit more complicated, so I wouldn't mind if the first implementation of hiring/firing coaches was just for flavour (or didn't make use of former NBA players until they can work out how to transition the ratings).

[fluidmind]

Hey!

Nice to see this thread developing. I think there are many interesting points being made here, and it's a joy to see, that the tone is positive and forward looking. Great comments, guys!

Sorry I haven't replied in a while. I have been quite busy. I wish to address three of the issues mentioned: 1) player development, 2) player search and 3) coaches.

1. PLAYER DEVELOPMENT
I completely agree with you, Andrew. It should not be possible to make Shaq a three point shooter or to max out a player's abilities unrealistically. I will try to go into a bit more detail regarding my idea for a player development concept.

The general concept is, that you earn skill points. You can earn them in practices (drills completed & total practice time) and in games (performance (stats), minutes played). The points you win can be used to upgrade your players.

Just like today, each player has a particular set of skills. But apart from the skill level, there will also be a "talent" level attached to each skill, determining how many skill points you can "buy" per skill-point earned. These talent levels are attributed to each player based on real life scouting reports. But generally, the younger and the more talented the player is, the more value you get for the "skill points" you earn. Also, the "price" of an additional skill point increases the greater the player's current abilities are.

Example one: Shaq will for instance have the skill level "3" in 3pt shooting and a talent level of "10", meaning that it will require 6 times the amount of skill points to upgrade his skills in this particular area as a player with a talent level of "60". This could be Rondo, who has a skill level of, say "35" on 3pt shooting, but due to his age and general talent has good potential to develop this skill.

Example two: Let's anticipate that Stephen Curry and Tyreke Evans are the same age and have the same talent level. But because Curry currently has a higher 3pt rating, it will cost more to buy him an additional 3pt skill point compared to Evans.

The talent levels should be set realistically so that Shaq, for instance, would never develop a 3-pointer. He is old, he does not have general jump-shot abilities, he plays the C position etc.. Maybe his 3-pt talent should even be "0".

2. PLAYER SEARCH
I think this is a great idea. Yes, we can currently sort colums under each team roster list, but that takes time and you can't search for multiple abilities at the same time. If I am in need of a good perimiter defender with a good 3-pt shot, whose contract runs out by the end of the season, I really would like to be able to search for it. I love the idea!!!! Kudos x 120000.

3. COACHES
We should definately be able to hire and fire coaches, and to have retired players on the list of available coaches would be a great idea. I think it should just be the faces and names that transfers from the player's playing carreer, and not leadership-skills, chemistry etc..

All for now....!!! What do you think???

J

[Andrew]

We've mentioned it in other threads but it's worth mentioning again, hopefully the basics will at least be touched upon in terms of improving Dynasty Mode this year. Last year was a big gameplay update and while that was good to see the game modes certainly suffered, so there is a nagging thought that Dynasty Mode could be lacking again this year. It's disheartening to see how deep Association Mode is while Dynasty Mode has been languishing for a couple of years now, the framework itself isn't too bad but it can really use some work. I just hope there's been some time allocated to improving Dynasty Mode this year because that's where the replay value is. Great gameplay is important, of course, but I'm not much of an online gamer, Dynamic Season is a fine idea but the concept is limited from a fantasy standpoint and you can only play so many exhibition games before it gets boring.