Nba Lives Best Defenders

Ok here it is, I have listed a few players who I think should be given more credit for their defensive abilities. Ive broken it down in 3 groups of defenders.


Lockdown Defenders: aka STOPPERS, The best defenders and the ones who should be given the stopper ability.

Potential Stoppers: These guys have all the necessary tools to become stoppers but do not yet possess experience, or the mentality to become stoppers, but they are still great defenders.

Defensive Specialist: Usually the teams best defender but are either lacking the physical traits, or skills to become full out stoppers.

As you know defense in this game is a combination of quickness, Defensive awareness, Stealing/Blocking, and Defensive Rebounding. You need the quicker players to stay in front of them, the awareness to contest the shot, not fall for up fakes, crossovers, etc..., Stealing and Blocking are pretty much self explanetory, and you need to make sure you get the rebound to complete the stop. So yeah that sums it all up.

Ive used the following as my references, John Hollingers Stats and http://www.hoopsstats.com. For those of you who dont know Hollinger is regarded as one of basketballs greatest minds and one of the better espn analyst. And I recommend you pick up his annual Pro Basketball Forecast in it it explains all about Defensive PER, if your into that kind of stuff.

These are the players with the highest Defensive PER at each position
PG(EarlWatson, Billups, Snow, Kidd, Jamaal Tinsley Chris Duhon)
SG(Andre Iguodala, LarryHughes, Ginobili, EddieJones, QuintonRoss)
SF(BruceBowen,Ron Artest, Prince, JoshHoward, Shane Battier)
PF(TimDuncan, Sheed, Brand, Jermaine Oneal, Shawn Marion)
C (BrendanHaywood, JasonCollins, Ben Wallace, Camby, TysonChandler)

Most of them are allready great in the game but not all and if they are the best at each position I think its fair to give the outisde stopper ability to Watson, Snow, and Ross. Duhon was among the top 5 but his rating of 1.33 was no where near Kidds 1.60. Watson was the best with 2.40 to put that in perspective 2nd best was Billups at 1.77. Some players not listed didnt qualify for PER due to the fact they played very little minutes Like Lindsey Hunter. Lindsey Hunter is the best onball defender in the league and can pressure just about any pg he even took Dwayne Wade out of his game in the Detroit-Miami Series.

Ok lets get started with the list. Keep in mind this list consists of perimiter players. The inside stoppers are all very well done.

LockDown Defenders:
--Player---
Earl Watson
Quinton Ross
Josh Howard
Adrian Griffin
Lindsey Hunter
M. Pietrus
Trenton Hassell

Potential Stoppers:
--Player---
James Posey
Ruben Patterson
Bobby Simmons
Danny Ganger
Jared Jeffries
Jamaal Tinsley
Shaun Livingston (added him there are several articles that praise his D and Ive seen it in person he definately has all the tools to become a stopper)
Defensive Specialist:
--Player---
Greg Buckner
Ira Newble
James Jones
Keith Bogans
Deavon George
Raja Bell
Boris Diaw
Joey Graham
Desmond Mason
Damien Wilkins
Dermarr Johsnon
Caron Butler


The Defensive Awareness Key
Horrible to Below Avg: 1-39
Below Avg. to Average:40-55
Average to Above Avg: 56-69
Good to Great:70-79
Great to Best 80-99

In the next couple of posts I will list some of the stoppers key performances and stats. But thats all for today and Ill continue this tomarrow.

And to Andrew this is just the presentation I dont expect you to take this post as concrete evidence but I plan on backin it up in the next post with some stats that the stoppers have been putting up. I think youll find Some of them to be pretty impressive.

Last edited by Chronz on Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Fair enough, I look forward to further suggestions. Some specific suggestions for players would also be welcome, if you have them.

Possibly add Andres Nocioni to that list.

This is interesting stuff, Chronz. I think there needs to be a statistical basis for determining Defensive Awareness (otherwise it's all reputation and opinion), and I look forward to seeing more.

also might want to add reggie evans at pf to that list, hes a great defender.

Any more specific suggestions for specific players?

increasing specificly blocking and defensive awareness for reggie evens might be a good thing, and block for earl watson. I was at the sonics game the other day and he totally stuffed john salmons from behind on a fast break, it was pretty sweet. Though i believe an overall increase in all the defensive categories for most of these players, especially pure defenders like trenton hassel, adrian griffen, and ruben patterson is in order.

I'll check them out. Thanks.

This is interesting stuff, Chronz. I think there needs to be a statistical basis for determining Defensive Awareness (otherwise it's all reputation and opinion), and I look forward to seeing more.

yes,but some players like Boris Diaw ,this season ,he is average 0.69 steals and 1.06 blocks .He's def awarenese is 90.And Shawn Marion is average 1.91 steals and 1.88 blocks whose def awareness is 80. So sometimes ,I think def awareness is mainly related to its reputation and opinion,such as Bruce Bowen who is over 35 .

increasing specificly blocking and defensive awareness for reggie evens might be a good thing, and block for earl watson. I was at the sonics game the other day and he totally stuffed john salmons from behind on a fast break, it was pretty sweet. Though i believe an overall increase in all the defensive categories for most of these players, especially pure defenders like trenton hassel, adrian griffen, and ruben patterson is in order.

yeah,I saw in a video ,Earl Watson even blocked Bradley(7'7).Actually,Watson has amazing vertical jumping height and once he dunked in a game very easily in a fastbreak.But in game ,his jump rating is 44.

Please raise Josh Smith's block rating, its only 60 and he ranks 6th in blocks per game (2.48), 4th in total blocks (154.0) and 3rd in blocks per 48 minutes (3.95).

Ive used the following as my references, John Hollingers Stats and http://www.hoopsstats.com. For those of you who dont know Hollinger is regarded as one of basketballs greatest minds and one of the better espn analyst. And I recommend you pick up his annual Pro Basketball Forecast in it it explains all about Defensive PER, if your into that kind of stuff.

These are the players with the highest Defensive PER at each position
PG(EarlWatson, Billups, Snow, Kidd, Jamaal Tinsley Chris Duhon)
SG(Andre Iguodala, LarryHughes, Ginobili, EddieJones, QuintonRoss)
SF(BruceBowen,Ron Artest, Prince, JoshHoward, Shane Battier)
PF(TimDuncan, Sheed, Brand, Jermaine Oneal, Shawn Marion)
C (BrendanHaywood, JasonCollins, Ben Wallace, Camby, TysonChandler)

Most of them are allready great in the game but not all and if they are the best at each position I think its fair to give the outisde stopper ability to Watson, Snow, and Ross. Duhon was among the top 5 but his rating of 1.33 was no where near Kidds 1.60. Watson was the best with 2.40 to put that in perspective 2nd best was Billups at 1.77. Some players not listed didnt qualify for PER due to the fact they played very little minutes Like Lindsey Hunter. Lindsey Hunter is the best onball defender in the league and can pressure just about any pg he even took Dwayne Wade out of his game in the Detroit-Miami Series.

can anybody explain what's Defensive PER mean?

Noted.

THIS IS SOME GREAT STUFF.............
this is huge BABY!

Here is my question:

Why do Bruce Bowen and Chancey Billips Have the ability to steal the ball? When I play with the Pistons or the Spurs I get like 3 steals with Billips and Bowens.

These two players are good and Excellent defenders but they dont steal the ball very well and I feel that that their superstar defensive ability is shammed.
They should have high defensive awareness and Billups should have some quickness, but to exaggerat their ability to steal the ball is false.

Chancey Billips .83 Stl per game (and he is a superstar defensive stopper)
Bruce Bowen .94 (he's a defensive stopper but he can't steal worth crap)

you got Tayshaun Prince as an inside defensive stopper, What?
He average .71 stl and .47 in bpg.

This is what's funny, you didnt show Gerald Wallace no love! He got stats to back up his defensive superstar abilities.

The Bobcats, have the best two players that leads the league in steals.
You have

Brevin Knight 2.26 Stl/ 8ast/ 12 pts pg
Gerald Wallace 2.52 Stl / 7 rbs/ 2.11 Blocks/ 15 pts pg

Gerald Wallace gotta be an inside stopper, one of the most underrated defensive players in the game.

Im not saying that Brevin is a defensive stopper but turn his steals and quickness up.

the problem is that good defenders (ie with good awareness) don't necessarily tend to steal or block the ball a lot as they are more concerned to stay in front of their players... They prevent their guys to penetrate or to shoot too easily and that's something not really reflected when you look at the stats

Bowen steals the ball a lot because EA gave him a huge Steal rating. It's pretty stupid, but they boosted a lot of people's ratings just to create more Freestyle Superstars.

Prince was an inside stopper by default. A lot of players have had their ratings boosted to give them the FSS abilities, some moreso than others. It's very difficult to find that balance so long as FSS is based solely on ratings and isn't an independent attribute.

I might have to consider biting the bullet and removing their FSS abilities when I lower the ratings to even things out. Keeping their Defensive Awareness high should mean they still keep good position, rotate effectively, etc.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Thanks Andrew:

1. First for all of your hard work on the Rosters!
2. For always keeping an open mind for suggestions or ideas
3. Just for simply being the best of the best in terms of patch making

You're welcome, thanks for the kind words.

See thats the thing Blacksmurf the guys you listed are the best defenders so its only fair they be given the stopper ability and the only way to do that is to give them a high steal rating. Keep in mind though they do not like to gamble because thats whats best for their team and its what their coaches want, whereas a team like the bobcats cant rely on their defense winning games for them so they gamble alot to create more stops. Its not that they cant steal or create turnovers they just do it in a more efficient manner. Also if you saw Bruce Bowen in his younger/less experience days he had incredible timing and was a great at playin the passing lanes the guy averaged 1.4 stls in 20 minutes of playin time.

can anybody explain what's Defensive PER mean?

From Hollinger: (typos mine)

I first created a "replacement level" for points allowed per minute that was 10 percent worse than the league average. Then I took one-fifth the difference between the team's points allowed per minute and the replacement level, and added it to the team's points allowed per minute. That would be the amount a team could expect to give up if the other four players remained the same, but the fifth player was one of "replacement level" quality.

Then I calculated the difference between the "replacement level" points allowed per minute and the actual number allowed by the team when the player in question was on the court. That was how many points the player theoretically saved his team with his defense, which I call his Team Defense Rating.

I followed the same steps for a players man-to-man defense, with the player's opponents PER used in place of the team's points allowed per minute. That gave us the second component of my player's defensive rating, his Man Defense Rating.

Finally, I used the player's statistical acomplishments-his blocks, steals, and personal fouls-and summed how much those factors contributed to the player's PER. I've labeled that his Stats Rating.

...

So, in total, the Man Defense Rating accounted for 1/6 of a players' overall score-which I call his Defensive PER. The Stats Rating accounted for 1/3, and the Team Defense Rating for 1/2.

It was also limited to players who played at least 62 games and at least 1800 minutes.

Top Ten:

Code:

duncan,tim   3.08
haywood,brendan   2.76
ginobili,manu   2.71
simmons,bobby   2.68
collins,jason   2.64
wallace,ben   2.40
watson,earl   2.40
battier,shane   2.16
wallace,rasheed   2.08
prince,tayshaun   1.97

Bottom Ten:

Code:

harpring,matt   -1.02
croshere,austin   -0.79
smith,j.r.   -0.77
thomas,tim   -0.70
rose,jalen   -0.23
nocioni,andres   -0.20
childress,josh   -0.10
atkins,chucky   -0.07
murphy,troy   -0.04
thomas,kurt   0.04

The Top Fives in each position actually differ in the book from what Chronz wrote...except for Center. (Where Hollinger notes Wallace should rank first because he got off to a slow start)

PF: Duncan, Sheed, Brand, Antonio Davis, Dirk Nowitzki
SF: Simmons, Battier, Prince, Bowen, Josh Howard
SG: Manu, Ben Gordon, Rip Hamilton, Larry Hughes, Andre Iguodala
PG: Watson, Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker, Eric Snow, Jason Kidd

Danny Fortson never plays enough minutes to qualify for Hollinger, but I continously do some of my own work on measuring defense, and in both 2004 and 2005 Fortson lapped the field as the worst defensive player in the league. Just a personal note of my own...

hey andrew, i think yao's blk, should be at around 80, cuz he is blocking alot better since his comeback, and he is putting up great numbers after tmac got injured, and he is averaging 1.65 blk in only like 34 minutes, i think his blks should be 80+, thx

I'll consider it but can't guarantee I'll make that change.

1.65 blocks in 34 minutes, not a big deal...