The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

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Re: The defense is not better - My opinion

Postby nextnba on Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:36 pm

If it's not a break than why are there some people on here complaining that the defense is too good and then others saying they can get by CPU at well. If it's not a break then why does changing the sliders have no effect? If it's not a break then how come when u quit the game and play another game you still have same issue even though u playing a different team w players w different speed and defense. It's a break. I was able to get in 3 good games in where it was really hard to get by CPU then the speed broke and now I'm running around really quick and I can get by cpu at will. I was playing at game speed 50 and movement felt slow. When it breaks I have to adjust game speed to 45 and even at 45, it feels mulch faster than 50 when it wasn't broken. When it doesn't break CPU defense is really good and the game is perfect. It's like the best NBA game I ever play. When it breaks you can score at well and the game becomes junk where it feels like non of the sliders have effect no more.
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Re: The defense is not better - My opinion

Postby Dee4Three on Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:30 am

This is why I am not playing NBA 2K18 right now. This is on HOF, and watch the score. This is me just taking straight paths to the hoop without making moves. Either just running around the defender or through. The score is almost a full first quarter score halfway through the quarter JUST doing this. It doesn't matter if Draymond Green is on me, it doesn't matter who is one me on either team (I am switching teams to be on offense every possession). It doesn't matter if Im on the break, or in the halfcourt calling isos, or not calling isos at all. Its the worst defense in video game history.

You can't deny what I am showing with video evidence. Seldom does help come, and even with slider tweaks I just blow past the CPU. It's not fun.

I am sticking with 2K17 right now because it's a lot more fun. This is just complete cake, its so easy.

WATCH THE WHOLE VIDEO:

phpBB [video]
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Re: The defense is not better - My opinion (UPDATED WITH VIDEO EVIDENCE)

Postby nextnba on Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:37 am

That is what happens when it breaks. When it doesn't break, you can not get around the defender at all. They feel like brick and it's hard to get around them. When it breaks, the speed becomes fast and CPU don't play defense anymore. Look at these two videos I have.

Speed breaks so I set acceleration and speed to 0. But look at how fast they still go and look at how easy it is for me to get to the basket.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plNtOqqvxjE

I'm in the process of uploading a video and will provide you the link to what happens when it does not break and how hard it is to get around CPU.
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Re: The defense is not better - My opinion (UPDATED WITH VIDEO EVIDENCE)

Postby Dee4Three on Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:40 am

Listen.. I was easily getting around the CPU on XBOX One as well, that does not have speed breaks.

I'm asking you to please stop with the speed break thing. It's a gameplay mechanic issue.
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Re: The defense is not better - My opinion (UPDATED WITH VIDEO EVIDENCE)

Postby nextnba on Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:56 am

Now look at this video when it doesn't break. All I am trying to do is drive to the basket. I'm even forcing it but CPU puts their body on me and pushes me away from the hoop. The feel like brick and I can't move around them. It forces me to back off and I force it again. Even if I'm able to get through on my 2nd try, cpu help defense is right there waiting for me. Look at how hard it is for me to get around CPU. CPU continues to push me and I struggle really hard to get to the hoop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf6ys5XyF2I

What usually happens is that I can get a few quarters in, maybe even a few games, and then of a sudden it breaks and I can get by CPU at will. When it happens, it's really obvious because the speed changes and CPU no longer plays any defense.
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Re: The defense is not better - My opinion (UPDATED WITH VIDEO EVIDENCE)

Postby nextnba on Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:58 am

Dee4Three wrote:Listen.. I was easily getting around the CPU on XBOX One as well, that does not have speed breaks.

I'm asking you to please stop with the speed break thing. It's a gameplay mechanic issue.


Look at my 2nd videos. How is this not a break?
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Re: The defense is not better - My opinion (UPDATED WITH VIDEO EVIDENCE)

Postby Dee4Three on Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:07 pm

That second video it's still broken. You easily just run by the defender on the first 2 posessions (the second one you pull back).

And, I do the same thing on console. I literally just run passed the defense.

It's not a break, it's the mechanics. The second video proved my point even further.
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Re: The defense is not better - My opinion (UPDATED WITH VIDEO EVIDENCE)

Postby CarolusXCI on Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:38 pm

I think I know a way to fix this: nba_animations.iff editing. I'm currently testing some stuff, let's see..
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Re: The defense is not better - My opinion (UPDATED WITH VIDEO EVIDENCE)

Postby Dee4Three on Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:42 pm

CarolusXCI wrote:I think I know a way to fix this: nba_animations.iff editing. I'm currently testing some stuff, let's see..


I'm guessing you now see why I'm frustrated....
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Re: The defense is not better - My opinion (UPDATED WITH VIDEO EVIDENCE)

Postby CarolusXCI on Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:47 pm

Dee4Three wrote:I'm guessing you now see why I'm frustrated....


Yea, you have a point, no question.
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Re: The defense is not better - My opinion (UPDATED WITH VIDEO EVIDENCE)

Postby eko718 on Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:42 pm

My experience is great with sliders. For your issue, on the ball defense should be adjusted.
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Re: The defense is not better - My opinion (UPDATED WITH VIDEO EVIDENCE)

Postby Dee4Three on Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:47 pm

eko718 wrote:My experience is great with sliders. For your issue, on the ball defense should be adjusted.


As stated prior, I have tried this.

I'm not new to sliders or basketball video games.
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Re: The defense is not better - My opinion (UPDATED WITH VIDEO EVIDENCE)

Postby nextnba on Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:27 pm

Dee4Three wrote:That second video it's still broken. You easily just run by the defender on the first 2 posessions (the second one you pull back).

And, I do the same thing on console. I literally just run passed the defense.

It's not a break, it's the mechanics. The second video proved my point even further.


No. When it's not broken, when you try to drive it in, contact is made with CPU and your player gets stuck or gets push away. Look at how Curry puts his arm on me and I can't get around him. I pull back because my player got stuck and it won't allow me to go toward the basket anymore. But when it breaks, you can just fly by them. CPU can't even touch your guy. Also, when it doesn't break, you can adjust the slider and it will work. If you adjust onball defense to 100, CPU onball is really good and it's almost impossible to get by them. But when it breaks, the sliders don't work anymore. You can put onball to 100 and you will still fly by them at will. The speed becomes really fast and even if you decrease speed or acceleration, it still very fast. I can get a few games in and it will play great but when it breaks, it becomes junk. Even if I play other teams, it's still broken. It's not a mechanism because when it breaks, it's across the board. No matter what team you play, no matter what you do to the slider, nothing works anymore. What I usually do is just turn the game off and turn it back on and then it plays fine again. Sometimes, if it doesn't, then I just stop and play it again the next day and it works fine for a bit, until it breaks again.

I'm not saying that what your experiencing is not happening to me. It happens and it's so frustrating. When it happens, the game is junk like you said because scoring becomes so easy. But all I'm saying is that sometime I don't get a break and it plays fine. It actually plays great.
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Re: The defense is not better - My opinion (UPDATED WITH VIDEO EVIDENCE)

Postby bongo88 on Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:47 pm

I watched your video, dee, and think there could be some decent discussion here.

to summarize, the first half of the video is you blowing past transition defense, or mostly transition defense. the second half of the video is you calling iso play in a half court set.

so, i am wondering exactly what you are expecting the defense to do in the plays that you showed?

feel free to timestamp a few of the plays from the video and explain what you expect should have happened.

I have more opinions about this topic, but first i'm wondering exactly how you are expecting the defense to counter in the examples you provided.
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Re: The defense is not better - My opinion (UPDATED WITH VIDEO EVIDENCE)

Postby Dee4Three on Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:55 pm

bongo88 wrote:I watched your video, dee, and think there could be some decent discussion here.

to summarize, the first half of the video is you blowing past transition defense, or mostly transition defense. the second half of the video is you calling iso play in a half court set.

so, i am wondering exactly what you are expecting the defense to do in the plays that you showed?

feel free to timestamp a few of the plays from the video and explain what you expect should have happened.

I have more opinions about this topic, but first i'm wondering exactly how you are expecting the defense to counter in the examples you provided.


The first few highlights are transition, where the defense moves out of my way. (First 40 seconds)

The rest, is me in one on one situations, and I literally just run passed my guy, without doing any moves. I just... run by him.

There is no debate. It's a problem, a huge one. That video proves it.

So let's not make excuses, let's take it for what it is and try and find a fix. Also, this thread itself is a start so hopefully 2k sees it.

Dont sugarcoat it guys, it's garbage. It's gamebreaking for me 100%.

And what do I expect the defense to do?... umm... not let me just run by them every time. Not let me just get to the hoop whenever I want. And what do I want the help defense to do? Well.. help, you know... see that my defender is not playing any defense and come over to try and stop me.

With all due respect, I can't believe you just asked that. I expect the defender to play defense... not just stand there while I run by him...
Last edited by Dee4Three on Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The defense is not better - My opinion (UPDATED WITH VIDEO EVIDENCE)

Postby Dee4Three on Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:21 pm

Bongo, I do think you are a good guy. And, from conversations we have had I think you know basketball. I don't need to pin point times, the whole video is the problem. You should know that without me even saying anything.
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Re: The defense is not better - My opinion (UPDATED WITH VIDEO EVIDENCE)

Postby hova- on Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:09 pm

I am working on sliders right now and it is hard to eliminate the easy driving. But you definitely MUST NOT use the HoF sliders.

You need a heavy increase of the sliders in:

- on ball D
- help D
- def aware.
- blocking/charging fouls
- shot contest
- body collision

you really need to tone down the sliders for:

- ball handling
- ball security

im working on it
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Re: The defense is not better - My opinion (UPDATED WITH VIDEO EVIDENCE)

Postby TGsoGood on Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:46 pm

You shouldn't have to tone down offensive sliders to help the defense out.

As stated earlier I think modding the defensive animations may help.
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Re: The defense is not better - My opinion (UPDATED WITH VIDEO EVIDENCE)

Postby Dee4Three on Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:55 am

TGsoGood wrote:You shouldn't have to tone down offensive sliders to help the defense out.

As stated earlier I think modding the defensive animations may help.


Not too mention that I've stated numerous times that I have tried basically everything with the sliders and it does nothing. Not trying to be a dick, and I really appreciate the attempt at help, but I've said a couple times in here that I've messed with the sliders. I'm not a rookie.

Also, this is a issue even if we find a fix with animations.iff, because that doesn't help console users, and it also doesn't make it right. It needs to be brought to 2K's attention. HOF is supposed to be the hardest level, it's freakin "Hall of Fame". The fact that you have to say that the defense is horrible and sliders are easy on HOF is alarming. The gameplay mechanics on defense are broken, the defense is even worse than last year. Players moving out of the way even more, just running by players... it's silly.

And again, we need to stop with the excuses. Things like it's a speed break related to a driver issue, or "what do I expect the defense to do", etc. That helps nothing, and I've stated already that I can do the same thing on consoles. It's in no way fun, playing the CPU or even another human feels lame and easy in this game. The only way we can fix a problem like this is being on the same page and being realistic.

Anybody who knows basketball, and even people that dont know it well, would watch that video and state "why is the defender just standing there?", "why do they keep letting them just run by", "why are they just letting them score?", "why are they moving out of the way". It's really black & white in the video.
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Re: The defense is not better - My opinion (UPDATED WITH VIDEO EVIDENCE)

Postby hova- on Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:47 am

Well lets hope for a patch but still try to make the best out of it by adjusting sliders. That's all we can hope for now.
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Re: The defense is broken (UPDATED WITH VIDEO EVIDENCE)

Postby bongo88 on Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:24 am

It is my opinion that 2k makes drives artifically difficult. I watched the video and was wondering what you expected the cpu to happen, because my memory itched that most dribble drives in the nba are hipriding or fairly untouched. I started looking around youtube for dribble drive highlights and found a few then got distracted by a 1995 bulls/jazz game. I watched the whole game last night, and saw so many dribble drives that i was gonna come back today and notate them.

full disclosure, i watched nba religously from 89-2001 or so. then life got busy and have watched much. caught a couple of finals games last year. lebron gave his best, that's for sure. oh, and was a jazz fan. born in 84. all us kids idoloized stockton (we new we'd never have malone stature, but we could play like stockton). never played basketball seriously, but plenty of pickup for fun. just wasn't athletic enough to pursue. that's how i got distracted by this jazz/bull game, but noticed so many drives through the 4 quarters to look at. i remember watching this game because i remember the jordan dunk in the second half. whole stadium cheering for jordan, lol. me too on the couch. couldn't help myself, that jordan for you.

sadly, only got through the first quarter due to time restraints, but you should watch the whole game. Its is just beautiful. anyways, the bulls went 72-10 that year, the jazz went 55-27.

examples of blow by drives:
link stockton blows by jordan. untouched. even worse than your 2k18 video.
link jordan with the drive untouched, little bit of hip riding, but so little i decided to put it in this category.

dribble drives untouched/hipriding

link stockton untouched help defense over
link stockton untouched through the lane
link not really a dribble drive, but longley to the basket untouched
link malone dribble drive untouched, help comes
link lol chris morris untouched with 4 bulls around him, lol
link morris untouched, help doubled
link stockton with a drive, morris with drive on kucos(mismatch)(possible morris charge), then kucos trying to hedge benoit liek players do in 2k(kukoc gets the foul) (this is an amazing camera angle of spacing on drives)
link bulls big man drive (cant tell who) it is kucos\
link malone drives untouched. jordan all over on defense-- where'd he learn to play defense, 2k? left his guy hornacek wide open, team rating going to go down :) haha :)
link bull big man caffey untouched with malone defending. runs into helps. good replay footage.
https://youtu.be/S850XEVcF58?t=1592 stockton dribble drive. not much pressure on carr drive. then too bad jordan missed end of quater shot. woulda been a good one. :)

good drive defense
link - very good dribble drive defense by jordan, but still not much touching, no hard hedge
link - stockton testing jordans dribble drive defense, still not much touching
link - stockton testing jordan again a simple twitch sends jordon into high alert
link - hornacek playing point. jordan cuts him off. very different respect from jordan towards hornacek than jordan/stockton due to hornacek not athletic.

Transition defense
link pippen transition blows by malone
link jordan on semi trasition open jumper
link 2 plays stockton transition then jordan transition on next play
link malone trying to slam the ball against longley, (longle dodged) haha. then stockton playing dirty with dangerous defensive play in trasition (could be an injury on pippen if things went bad)
link horrible tranistion decision by bulls (cant tell who) felt like 2k :)

capitilizing on mistakes
link malone mistake jordan with defensive rebound capitilizing on malone mistake (perfect malone positioning)
link pippen mistake
link hornacek under the screen. jordan capitalizes.


random haha (mostly commentary lol )
link haha story about jordan going to local movie theater (random, lol)
link jordan attemptin 4 threes a game, so many! :)
link haha rookie ostertag... we jazz fans loved/hated that guy :)
link LOL LOL pippen with an airball freethrow :) we shoulda had reddit back then :) he woulda been roasted :) lol fans and commentators acknowledge it loool :)
link hornacek could shoot... 59% from 3 course it was early in the season... commentary
link haha, another pippen airball freethrow. bad night for pippen :) love them 90s utah fans :) haha, commentary about bleeding uniforms when washed, funny guys :)
link jordan all over on defense. where'd he learn to play defense, 2k? left his guy hornacek wide open, team rating going to go down :) haha :)

again, that was all in the first quarter. i watched the whole game last night. more examples in the next 3 quarters. no time this morning. outta the whole game dribble drives, most went untouched/hipriding. few were well gaurded. most relied on help defense to rotate.

now, this isn't the greatest sample size. I included the big men plays for variety. I'd need to watch a variety of games with a variety of players. But these bulls/jazz were no slouch on defense. i'd need a few more games to watch with different players... was gonna watch bulls/san antonion game on the sidebar, but this took too much time.

I say 2k makes dribble drives artifically difficult because according to my memory most drives are rather untouched. link 2k does stuff like this. i tried to find the equivallency in the nba and came up with this play. link not really a great example. doesnt seem to happen that often.

link possibly this play jordan/hornacek is equivalancy. but jordan knows he very much more athletic than hornacek and to jump that drive is quite a bit of quickness and defensive awareness from jordan. would another less equal player jumped that drive in that manner? dunno.

these are the other examples i found before getting distracted by the jazz/bull game
harden untouched on iso plays: link

link nice dribble drive breakdown. 2 drives on this play, 1st drive the pg recovers, but the 2nd drive follows the same hip riding motion almost untouched, the drive is ended by help defense in the paint, which led to the kick out

anyways, it's my opinion that this 2k, while not perfect, and while can be exploited if user want to, is moving in the right direction with the movement scheme. I am super impressed in the customability of this 2k. they added more movement sliders. the difference between tomba sliders here and shady sliders hereis amazing that you can get the game to feel so different.

with your video, the help defense should rotate more. i havent looked much into iso drive by plays to see how help defense rotates in real nba, but to say that this doesn't mimick nba drives just itches my memory wrong.

oh, transition defense... long passes can also be exploited. but i think its better than cpu ai deflecting passes that they not even looking at (happened lots on transittion in old 2k games). i got no problem with the transition defense clips you posted. in full transition defense (and transition defense that is just sets) all sorta things happen on defense/offense. its part of the game.

anyways, perhaps help should slide over more and movement can be slowed/sped up (both helped with nba2k sliders), but to say that nba players are always stonewalled on a dribble drive is just wrong according to my memory of the games i've watched.

the real question: is this game artificial, or are older 2k dribble drives artificial and this game more true to player movement.

in my opinion, the hip riding animation is a nice break from the stonewalling, but 2k needs to put even more seperation on drives.

ps. make sure you watch the 2 pippen airball freethrows :) my favorite clips of first quarter haha :) hate them bulls... boohoohooohooo :( gonna need tissues as i cry and cry on my way to work, haha :)
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Re: The defense is not better - My opinion (UPDATED WITH VIDEO EVIDENCE)

Postby rickberge on Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:33 am

Dee4Three wrote:
TGsoGood wrote:You shouldn't have to tone down offensive sliders to help the defense out.

As stated earlier I think modding the defensive animations may help.


Not too mention that I've stated numerous times that I have tried basically everything with the sliders and it does nothing. Not trying to be a dick, and I really appreciate the attempt at help, but I've said a couple times in here that I've messed with the sliders. I'm not a rookie.

Also, this is a issue even if we find a fix with animations.iff, because that doesn't help console users, and it also doesn't make it right. It needs to be brought to 2K's attention. HOF is supposed to be the hardest level, it's freakin "Hall of Fame". The fact that you have to say that the defense is horrible and sliders are easy on HOF is alarming. The gameplay mechanics on defense are broken, the defense is even worse than last year. Players moving out of the way even more, just running by players... it's silly.

And again, we need to stop with the excuses. Things like it's a speed break related to a driver issue, or "what do I expect the defense to do", etc. That helps nothing, and I've stated already that I can do the same thing on consoles. It's in no way fun, playing the CPU or even another human feels lame and easy in this game. The only way we can fix a problem like this is being on the same page and being realistic.

Anybody who knows basketball, and even people that dont know it well, would watch that video and state "why is the defender just standing there?", "why do they keep letting them just run by", "why are they just letting them score?", "why are they moving out of the way". It's really black & white in the video.


I agree with everything you just stated. The experience of execution and knowledge of the games goes out the door when you know all you have to do is turbo to the basket to get a point. Really kills the challenge of playing against the CPU.

If you look closely, it seems that even the elite defenders do not take angles when defending. It's an automatic hip-ride. There should be more "beat man to the spot" animation for elite defenders. Only a Patch can fix this. Hopefully there can be a happy medium between the stonewall defense and the hip-ride animation in regard to what triggers such animation.
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Re: The defense is broken (UPDATED WITH VIDEO EVIDENCE)

Postby sticky-fingers on Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:41 am

bongo88 wrote:It is my opinion that 2k makes drives artifically difficult. I watched the video and was wondering what you expected the cpu to happen

i'm pretty agree with you
i commented sooner today on D43's YT video.
For me, the major failure for the 1st part is the defensive help. i
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Re: The defense is not better - My opinion (UPDATED WITH VIDEO EVIDENCE)

Postby eko718 on Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:26 am

Dee4Three wrote:
eko718 wrote:My experience is great with sliders. For your issue, on the ball defense should be adjusted.


As stated prior, I have tried this.

I'm not new to sliders or basketball video games.


Didn't say you were. However, adjusting the on ball defense DOES WORK for the issue you mentioned. I noticed the same issue, specifically in the Prelude.
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Re: The defense is not better - My opinion (UPDATED WITH VIDEO EVIDENCE)

Postby Dee4Three on Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:55 am

eko718 wrote:
Dee4Three wrote:
eko718 wrote:My experience is great with sliders. For your issue, on the ball defense should be adjusted.


As stated prior, I have tried this.

I'm not new to sliders or basketball video games.


Didn't say you were. However, adjusting the on ball defense DOES WORK for the issue you mentioned. I noticed the same issue, specifically in the Prelude.


It didn't work for me. And, the average player (99% of user base ₩ doesn't mess with sliders, they just choose a difficulty. Even if extreme slider tweaks fixed it, it wouldn't fix it for the average gamer who doesn't touch them.
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