Chicago Bulls Thread

[Andrew]

With 5 points on 2/11 shooting, I sure hope he's hurt. Well, I don't want him to be hurt, but...hey, you know what I mean.

Reckon Hoiberg gets canned at the end of the year?

[air gordon]

he does not have many pay days left in him. be hard to say no to 20 mil. maybe if he didnt have his rings

True. He can still play at a reasonable level so there would mild interest in him. My $ is on him leaving. He doesnt want to be part of a incompetently run organisation

And now Rondo is taking shots at management. Good times

Reckon Hoiberg gets canned at the end of the year?

Tbh no clue. Can't see the Bulls paying out 3 more years of his contract and the new hire

Shouldnt No more hoiberg mean no more garpax?

[Andrew]

Shouldnt No more hoiberg mean no more garpax?

We can only hope (and subsequently be disappointed, most likely).

[Andrew]

So, looks like they haven't decided what they're going to do the rest of the way, yet.

[air gordon]

Good times. Only the bulls.

Wade says post game Niko has to play in order for us to make the playoffs

[Andrew]

So much dysfunction and disappointment, neatly summed up. And apparently, Rondo could be back next season. You know, because he seems so happy to be there, and it's worked out so well.

[air gordon]

Wade's injury should end this fools gold of a playoff run.

Let the tank show begin. Shut down butler, Lopez, and rondo. Let the other guys play through thick and thin while the lottery balls increase. Let's see how bad cp22 is

[Andrew]

Sounds like a plan. Reckon Wade has played his last game as a Bull?

[Dee4Three]

Question for Bulls fans (This coming from a Celtics fan):

Do you want DWADE back? or do you let him walk?

He was still a productive player, but it doesn't seem like he was a healthy influence for the younger guys (Him and Jimmy Butler were not LEADERS as they should have been). Me personally, I've never been a fan of DWADE.

So, do you want him back? or nah?

[air gordon]

Andrew,
Sorry the definitive answer is I don't know. Seriously

I think wade's future depends on what happens with butler. Doesn't make sense if he's around if butler is traded. If management still wants to "retool" I suppose it makes sense to have him here to recruit

Dee
Wade at 20 something million is ok. I don't see him as the problem. I don't particularly like him either but he does have a championship pedigree.

I think his and butlers leadership is less a problem than the rest of the roster. You take away those 2 and this roster is at Brooklyn nets/sacto kings levels

[Andrew]

I think that's fair, I'm inclined to agree. If we change the question to "Should Wade have played his last game as a Bull?", that's tough to answer as well. Honestly, I'm comfortable with both scenarios.

If he moves on, then the Bulls move on. To what? Hard to say, it depends whether GarPax has any kind of plan, or redeemable trick up their sleeves. He's obviously not the long-term future though, so if he leaves, best of luck to him, thanks for trying, and hopefully he at least partly enjoyed playing a season in his hometown. If he stays, I'm not upset about that scenario either. As you said, he has championship experience, and though he's getting up there in age and mileage, he's still capable. He'd be a good veteran to have around; still capable of being a good player, and he can be a good mentor for younger players given his experience, accomplishments, and character. $20 million isn't too much for a player like him these days. Ten years ago, sure. Now, it's pretty standard.

So, yeah. Either way, I'm fine with what happens with Wade.

As far as the leadership of Wade and Butler is concerned...yeah, I don't know about that. If the Bulls had the talent (and coach) to actually pull themselves together and make a run after the public criticism, Wade and Butler's leadership would likely be praised for the effectiveness of its "tough love" approach. Was it the right way to handle things? Eh, maybe, maybe not. We've seen the approach both work and backfire in the past, and like I said, when it works, it gets praised. The question is, what should they be doing differently as leaders? I'm not sure Rondo's take is necessarily right, nor do I think he's a more suitable leader.

It is what it is. But where to go from here?

Let's state the obvious. To get better, they need to bring in better personnel. A better coach, better players, and players who fit the modern NBA, which has greater emphasis on three-point shooting. They'll have cap space (even more if Wade does opt out and they don't retain Rondo), and from the looks of things, a lottery pick. Opportunities to start making the right moves in the not too distant future. In theory, it's just a matter of identifying suitable candidates, and making a strong pitch. A bit harder in practice (notice I'm not naming any names of suitable candidates here), and few teams are going to get everyone they want, but the opportunity is there to make some good moves, starting this offseason. They're in a position to make moves to get better...again, in theory.

Unfortunately, as we've sadly noted so many times before, it comes back to the people running the show. GarPax haven't made a shrewd pick in years, so that lottery selection could easily be another bust. They don't have a lot of assets to make trades, and they're not very good at that anyway. Hoiberg still has years left on his contract, so he's unlikely to be cut loose; he's also easy for them to control, which is obviously what they want their coach to be. They'll have some cap space, but can they really attract any good free agents who will address the holes in their roster? They also have a history of settling for what they can get, just so that they can use the cap space and get something out of a free agent bonanza. It's not like the Bulls are in a terrible position to rebuild or retool - they're not the Knicks of 10-15 years ago - but it's hard to see them taking advantage of their opportunities.

As long as GarPax are calling the shots, the familiar problems of their egos and lack of vision are going to get in the way of progress and positive change. It seems highly unlikely they're going to get canned, and so the Bulls remain in limbo. No fun for us.

It's strange. Paxson had a front row seat to the mistakes that Jerry Krause made, and as a player on the first three championships (and assistant coach on the fourth), he should bristle at that infamous suggestion that "organisations win championships". Yet, here he is making the same mistakes, and displaying a similar attitude in his running of the front office. It's kind of like Phil Jackson in New York, come to think of it. After all the garbage he went through with Bulls' brass, you'd think he wouldn't meddle in the coaching of the team, or make some of the decisions that he has, knowing what it felt like to be on the other side of things. I guess the power just goes to your head, and not everyone is cut out for the job. That wouldn't be as big of a problem if ownership could recognise it, and make a few cuts themselves when changes need to be made.

Ah well. That Summer League championship was nice, wasn't it?

[air gordon]

I pretty much agree with the meat of your post. I don’t think management has a plan and that’s the problem. This past week was a microcosm of the season. Grant had been the starter for several weeks. Niko doesn’t even dress for the games. 12 man rotations. 5 game losing streak happens, including an embarrassing loss vs the Celts on national TV. Enter Rondo into the starting lineup, NIko plays big minutes, and Grant gets a DNP. Surprise Bulls win.

It is strange for an organization to fine its veteran players for voicing their opinions, especially Wade, who does have a well earned reputation for being very media friendly and a spokesman for the game. Add in his championship experience, his words must have stung a management that is quite sensitive to criticism and prefers to stay behind the scenes and
not face the media.

the bulls may the only team in the NBA with PG issues. for christ sakes they have 5 and they all stink

It's not like the Bulls are in a terrible position to rebuild or retool

Actually they are. As you mentioned, they don’t have many trade assets and the drafts picks since Butler have been bad. They have done a poor job developing the “young” talent they have. And it can’t be overstated how big of a bust the Mcdermott pick was. 2 first round picks, 3 2nd round picks to get him.

This current management has hard a time bringing quality FA’s in the past, i can’t imagine that changing after the type of season they are having now.

As ive said earlier, they should blow it up. Trade butler for the brooklyn pick and fill ins. pray that draft pick is a superstar. Be bad next season and draft well. Do it again the following season. Obviously there’s no guarantee the draft picks will be superstars but they’ve got to go this route instead of this slow burn from nba hell to nba doormat.

As far as the Paxson- imagine you have a job for life and being paid handsomely for it to boot. You have a fall guy in forman who does the dirty work anyway. The owner just wants you to do enough to keep butts in the seats and keep the franchise profitable. Would you rock the boat??

Personally i think there’s some desire to compete within Pax. he looks like hes aged pretty bad these last few years. Doesn’t he look like Ming the Merciless now? There has been some speculation from Chicago beat writers it is Pax who wants the rebuild but reinsdorf and forman want to continue this death march

[Andrew]

When you put it like that, I probably was too kind/optimistic about the position they're in. Drawing comparisons to the Knicks of the mid 00s, you could say it could be worse: cumbersome contracts, no cap space, and absolutely no picks of value. But yeah, if that's "terrible", then "not terrible" in this case certainly doesn't necessarily mean "good". It's hard to imagine GarPax doing something shrewd with what they've got, or using a lottery pick wisely. Conversely, it's very easy to see them squandering what few opportunities they do have to start getting better in the short term.

At this point, any move that doesn't result in taking on awful contracts and giving up picks for years seems like a good one in the rebuilding effort. That's setting the bar low, but it's also the most reasonable expectation. I'm always hesitant about the idea of giving up a player like Butler for the unknown quality of an unproven rookie, but a team does have to know when to cut its losses. Chances have to be taken, and this isn't anything like the proposed trade of Pippen and Longley for Antoine Walker in 1997. You're taking a chance on a team that needs to rebuild, not one that has one last title run left in them. So yeah, hesitant as I may be, I can get on board with blowing it up and trading Butler.

[air gordon]

At this point, any move that doesn't result in taking on awful contracts and giving up picks for years seems like a good one in the rebuilding effort. That's setting the bar low, but it's also the most reasonable expectation.

that's the problem. the fans should not be happy with mediocrity.

So yeah, hesitant as I may be, I can get on board with blowing it up and trading Butler.

believe me. if this roster simply needed a a tweak or 2, i'd be all in. i don't look forward to those days when the bulls struggle just to score 59 points in a game

[Andrew]

Maybe the ideal scenario is for GarPax to screw badly enough that they get canned, but not so badly that their successors have a huge mess to clean up before they can start a proper rebuilding effort. I agree that we shouldn't be happy with mediocrity, but it might be fairer to call it a sense of relief when they don't totally make a mess of things...almost to the point of being pleasantly surprised. Almost.

Getting back to what you said about Paxson before though, that's an interesting thought. He's definitely got the look of a cartoonish supervillain these days, no doubt. The thing is, even before he got Forman as a potential fall guy, he was making some very questionable moves. Throw in the physical confrontation with Vinny Del Negro and apparent control freak tendencies, and I still feel he has to go for the good of the franchise...even if he does want to compete while Reinsdorf and Forman are complacent.

[air gordon]

yep there is that hypocritical path Pax took. of course only the bulls does the GM not get fired for assaulting a coach. Gone are the days of him blasting the players in the locker room after an embarrassing loss/refusing to let players wear headbands. now he just sulks in the legion of doom hideout

any moves in particular Paxson made that was bad before Forman came on board? my mind is scrambled eggs

[Andrew]

Looking into it, that's tough to say. It's possible he's had a hand in certain moves since 2004, when he was named the Director of Player Personnel. However, questionable moves from before he became the GM in 2009 include signing Ben Wallace and trading LaMarcus Aldridge for Tyrus Thomas. It's possible Forman had Paxson's ear at the time and influenced those decisions, especially given his history as a scout for the team, but Paxson was the GM at the time. He's obviously still signing off on deals now, but I'm assuming Forman has more autonomy these days, or at the very least more influence.

[air gordon]

Is tyrus Thomas even playing overseas?! Talk about bust

Iirc one of pax's biggest criticism was the inability to pull off the big trade. This was around the time the Vince carters of the league would bitch and moan to force a trade.

I remember pax saying constantly they wanted to maintain cap flexibility and collect assets. Nothing really came of it.

[Andrew]

Iirc one of pax's biggest criticism was the inability to pull off the big trade. This was around the time the Vince carters of the league would bitch and moan to force a trade.

Good call, it's probably the deals he didn't make that are the biggest mistakes/most worrying signs of incompetence. I recall that when Kobe was demanding out of Los Angeles prior to the 2008 season, he expressed interest in going to Chicago. Obviously didn't happen. Then there was all that talk of being able to acquire Pau Gasol (when such a move could've had more of an impact) during that same season; the Lakers ended up getting him for a bargain.

[Andrew]

Well, that was one hell of a fourth quarter collapse against the Raptors. Held scoreless for about five minutes, and then they let it slip away in the overtime. If not for some Butler heroics, they wouldn't have even managed to do that. That offense is not a well-oiled machine; sure, he doesn't have the best roster at his disposal, but Hoiberg really seems out of his depth as an NBA coach. His NBA coaching career is making his NBA playing career look Hall of Fame worthy.

Still, at this point, the season is all but mathematically lost. It's hard to get too discouraged by losses when they seem inevitable right now, and have the silver lining of extra chances in the lottery. I don't enjoy watching them lose, yet at the same time, this team isn't competitive enough for losses to really sting, either. What a time to be a Bulls fan, eh?

[air gordon]

Sorry don't watch them anymore but thanks the update. Not worth it for me

Of all the speculation of landing a star, I think the gasol deal not happening was the disappointment.

Rip Krause. The hall of fame should induct him

[Andrew]

Agreed. He lost his touch, he said some silly things, but he also put together squads that won six titles in eight seasons. At the end of the day, he's also a human being with friends and family; if the worst he did in his life was make some bad decisions as the GM of a professional sports team, he's certainly no monster. Let's give him his due for what he accomplished. RIP.

[Sauru]

if people didnt get into the HOF based on some dumb things they said then the hall would be a pretty empty place

[air gordon]

Its interesting to hear some of the innovative things he did that flies under the radar- first to hire an accountant in what became known as the salary capologist... virtually creating the modern day NBA front office and scout European players/draft them

[Andrew]

Interesting, I didn't know about the accountant. Of course, he did go a little overboard on the European kick...or at least, some of the scouting reports let him down. But definitely innovation there.