the top 20 SG of all time, because i am bored

[kingjames23]

so this was fun. kind of.

i wanted to make a top 20 list based on accumulative stats, not opinions. not based on a single dominant year, but on a total career with highs and lows...

i simply totaled up the career per game averages of the top 20 shooting guards i could think of (ppg+rpg+apg+spg+bpg) or how much that player contributed in total over the course of their careers. then gave a point for each mvp award, finals mvp award, defensive player award and nba title... so points for being a winner are considered.

stats at basketball-reference.com

for example, this shows that west was the better overall statistical contributor, but is edged out by kobe due to his having more titles under his belt.

(inc) for no blk or stl info recorded so i couldnt add it... this is a problem.... fix?

1 jordan example(30.1 ppg +6.2 reb + 5.3 ast + 2.3 stl +.8 blk) = 44.7+(MVP 4 FMVP 6 DMVP 1 TITLES 6) = 61.7
2 bryant 37.3 +(MVP 1 FMVP 1 TITLES 4) = 43.5
3 west 40.1 +(FMVP 1 TITLES 1)= 42.1
4 wade 39.7 +(FMVP 1 TITLES 1) = 41.7
5 iverson 39.1 +(MVP 1) = 40.1
6 d. thompson 38.8
7 drexler 34.8 +(TITLES 1) = 35.8
8 maravich 35.5
9 gervin 35.2
10 s. jones 25.1 (inc) +(TITLES 10) = 35.1
11 mcgrady 34.9
12 carter 34.8
13 r. allen 30.2 +(TITLES 1) = 31.2
14 richmond 29.9 +(TITLES 1) = 29.9
15 greer 28.2 (inc) +(TITLES 1) =29.2
16 sharman 24.7 (inc) +(TITLES 4) = 28.7
17 monroe 27 +(TITLES 1) = 28
18 ginobili 24 +(TITLES 3) = 27
19 dumars 23.8 +(FMVP 1 TITLES 2) = 26.8
20 miller 25.5

its amazing what kind of stats some current players put up compared to some of the legends? vince carter 12th?

really?

feel free to put up career stats and bump players out of the top 20 SG i posted. could be fun. 2guards only (oscar robertson will be in my point guard list) correct my math if i was off... its only fair.

active players may rise or fall depending on the end of year averages needing to be taken into account.

remember this formula only counts CAREER AVE points, reb, ast, stl blk + nba titles, mvp award, finals mvp award, def player award. show the math please.

i felt most improved, 6man, ROY and all star awards too arbitrary... so i didnt count them. i didnt count all star selections because that is primarily a popularity contest. as far as 1st team and 2nd team selections go i thought it would be too busy, and i didnt want to take the time to figure it. 3 points for 1st team? 2 points for 2nd? 1 point for 3rd? too busy!

point guards are next! probably 24 hours or so.

feel free to post some stats, edit my list and knock out some guys

if you want to that is. i thought it'd be fun.

[J@3]

It's a fairly flawed system you developed but I definitely think it's cool that you at least put some thought into this as opposed to just posting a random list of names.

If I had to come up with a quick list off the top of my head I'd say...

1: Jordan
2: West
3: Kobe
4: Gervin
5: Drexler

Iverson for me is too inefficient to consider in the top 5, Thompson didn't play in the NBA for all that long compared to Clyde and I'd reevaluate Wade in 5 years time. Also I rate West slightly above Kobe for their overall career production. This could change obviously since Kobe's still going. I don't take awards into account because they are media voted.

[kingjames23]

yeah the first set of numbers for west 40.1, kobe 37.3 shows that west "did more" per game, i give kobe the nod based on awards/titles

i know its flawed, but it was an interesting idea no?

thompsons numbers are combined nba/aba by the way...

and iverson was a dynamo earlier in his career. multi scoring titles push his stats way up, thus higher position. his rank will fall as his stats continue to dip (again, this is career averages)

just wait for the point guards... stockton gets the shaft at 28.7 (same as nash when you count his 2 mvp's, believe it or not) he currently sits at 16th place on my list of PG's.
having never won a title or mvp award... he didnt score alot, get rebounds or blocks. there in lies the flaw, he was one of the greats... but so many guys did more than pass and steal.

career stats for stockton
2.7 reb + 10.5 ast + 2.2 stl + 0.2 blk + 13.1 pts = 28.7
chris paul (so far, its sick)
4.8 reb + 10.0 ast + 2.4 stl + 0.1 blk + 19.5 pts = 36.8

[Moz]

an all-time SG list without Oscar Robertson is not reputable..

[kingjames23]

he is on my point guard list. he and west could flip flop.

[koberulz]

an all-time SG list without Oscar Robertson is not reputable..

(oscar robertson will be in my point guard list)

[kingjames23]

koberulz thanks for pointing out that i forgot i mentioned it already. but enough post whoring by me for now.

[NovU]

Take out "because i am bored" part in the title please.

Ok, here is my list

1. MJ w/o doubt
2. Wade w/o doubt
.
.
.
.
.
19. Hornacek
20. Kobe Bryant

[koberulz]

Why? If he wants to say that, he can. You don't own the guy, and it doesn't break any rules. As for your list, it's horrifically wrong from MJ down.

[NovU]

I didn't mean offense, but a suggestion as the thread would be taken rather more seriously with that part out in the title.

[benji]

yeah the first set of numbers for west 40.1, kobe 37.3 shows that west "did more" per game

Which also goes directly to the major flaws of your methodology.

1. Kobe averages 36.5 mpg for his career, West averages 39.2 mpg. Putting Kobe at West's minutes puts Kobe at 40.1. (West would be much higher since you added his "Career" blocks and steals, which is only 33 games at age 35. West clearly ripped 3+ steals a game in his prime.)

2. They play at completely different paces. The 2005-06 Lakers took 92.2 shots a game. The 1965-66 Lakers took 115.3 shots a game.

3. You're assuming the value of points, rebounds, assist, steals and blocks are all equal.

4. You're including team accomplishments, and for post 1969 players, media accolades.

5. West, and others, didn't have a three point line.

EDIT: Anyway,

Player	PER	WS	Playoff PER	Playoff WS	Combined PER	MJ%	MJ%*
1. Michael Jordan	27.9	214.0	28.6	39.8	28.0	100	100
2. Dwayne Wade	25.5	63.6	23.6	9.0	25.3	66	59
3. Jerry West	22.9	162.6	23.1	26.7	22.9	69	57
4. Kobe Bryant	23.6	142.9	22.0	22.5	23.3	61	51
5. Manu Ginobili	21.4	63.5	20.4	12.8	21.2	63	48
6. Clyde Drexler	21.1	135.6	19.7	15.5	20.9	50	37
7. George Gervin	21.4	116.3	21.2	9.7	21.4	47	36
8. Vince Carter	21.2	93.8	21.4	5.3	21.2	45	34
9. Sam Jones	18.7	92.3	17.5	15.2	18.5	47	31
10. Reggie Miller	18.4	174.4	19.5	19.9	18.5	46	31
11. David Thompson	19.9	63.3	17.8	3.3	19.8	43	30
12. Ray Allen	19.5	117.1	19.0	10.5	19.5	43	30
13. Bill Sharman	18.2	80.9	17.1	9.3	18.1	46	29
14. Allen Iverson	21.0	99.2	21.2	7.3	21.0	38	28
15. Paul Westphal	19.4	67.7	16.4	5.4	19.1	41	28
16. Jeff Hornacek	17.7	108.9	16.5	14.4	17.6	38	24
17. Walter Davis	19.1	76.9	19.9	5.6	19.2	35	24
18. Eddie Jones	16.7	100.6	15.1	7.3	16.6	34	20
19. Hersey Hawkins	16.3	90.6	16.6	7.6	16.3	32	18
20. Steve Smith	16.1	83.7	16.7	7.7	16.2	32	18

* = PER double counted

[Modifly]

As for your list, it's horrifically wrong from MJ down.

Yeah. Kobe at 20? What the hell?

[Jackal]

He's a Wade fan, how can you take anything he says seriously? That's like taking a Kobe fan seriously, come on now.

[Modifly]

True that Jackal.

[NovU]

Good list by benji. Good to see a few of my favorite players up there, in Reggie, Wade, and Hornacek. In fact, I'm suprised to see Hornacet at 16. Thought he'd be around 20 or later.

[shadowgrin]

He's a Wade fan, how can you take anything he says seriously? That's like taking a Kobe fan seriously, come on now.

...or a LeBron fan for that matter.

Never realized Sharman was a guard. Thought he was a forward.
Nice to see Reggie in the top 10 of that list by benji.

[kingjames23]

without having accurate block and steal counts for many old school players... this system is most certainly flawed. so do you take away such things as mvp awards? titles? when rating players?

what if i were to say, change the stats to per 48 minutes?

[benji]

so do you take away such things as mvp awards?

Yes, media accolades.

titles? when rating players?

Yes, team accomplishments.

what if i were to say, change the stats to per 48 minutes?

Doesn't address the unequal values.

[kingjames23]

not having steal, blocks and the 3 point shot in the mix makes it damn near impossible to be fair to the pre 80's or even pre 70's players. the only way to solve that is to compile two different lists per position which takes away from the fact that i was trying to do an ALL TIME list.

this is ... difficult

[NovU]

He's a Wade fan, how can you take anything he says seriously? That's like taking a Kobe fan seriously, come on now.

...or a LeBron fan for that matter.

3 best players... what can I say.

[Jackal]

I didn't mention Chris Paul alongside Kobe and Lebron, whatchu talkin bout Willis?

[koberulz]

Which of those three would you remove in favor of Paul?

[NovU]

He already did by stating alongside Kobe and Lebron. LOLz... It's tough being a Wade's fan in this forum, I find.

[Jackal]

Not really, I'm just not much for homerism from Kobe/Wade/Bron fanboys, I was just bugging you.

And stop winking at me, it's creeping me out. In a non sexy way.