Constructing a verbal display of our grievances.

Hopefully that title will scare away a certain "class" of posters.

Here's what I produced:
[EDITED: Final version that was sent is available at http://www.nbalive.org/letter.htm ]
Looking for changes, additions, subtractions, etc.

The idea is to issue this letter with the biggest community members signing on intitally to give it a weight and strength. Sending it out to the major gaming media as well as EA. Then adding more signatures (of anyone who supports) and resending it to EA. Doing this last step multiple times.

Last edited by benji on Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:21 am, edited 5 times in total.

Great letter.

Maybe you should add references to nba-live.com, nbaliveforums.com, and nbalive.org, just so they can actually see what we're thinking and saying in addition to our signatures?

Not sure if this is "allowed" or not, but is it possible to combine the list of people on the petition to this letter? I'm sure they all feel the same way.

Well said, benjii.

As long time NBA Live fans, some of us even from when EA was putting "vs." in their titles, we have been around the block with EA many times. Most of us have gone beyond mere fans into "fanatics" spending countless man-hours on fan sites or making modifications or patches for the games. Even those of us who have not, have spent as many hours involving ourselves in an ever expanding community of other NBA Live fans. If anyone deserves the tag "hardcore fan" it's us. We've stuck by EA and NBA Live in the face of serious competition from the 2K series.

For us however, NBA Live 07 is the final straw. The one that broke the camel's back. The spark that set the field ablaze. Until this release we overlooked any flaws in the game, one's some of us considered major even if others of us considered them minor. But this release to us ignited feelings that EA doesn't care about its fans, which is why we're writing today.

Irregardless of whether EA does or does not care about its fans, the bigger issue is perception. The image that EA presents is that they don't. (don't what?) Every year, we as a community submit one or more wishlists, often with the same wishes from year to year. A lack of implementation of the wishes sows seeds of belief that EA isn't paying attention. When EA releases a game in which the CPU won't even use its bench, and overrides user substitutions, it sows seeds that EA didn't care and just wanted to cash in. When major online media doesn't get review copies, it leads to the belief that EA knew the product was defective but proceeded anyway. When community members contact EA and receive a response that seems to imply EA isn't too interested in fixing the problems and telling us to wait until the next game, it does quite a bit of harm to our faith in EA.

While we'd love a patch to fix the major issues with the game, that is the not major focus of our letter, as we have a patch petition for that. Our focus is not simply on this release, but a sense that we see in other EA-related communities, whether it's the NFL gaming community or the people who play Battlefield 2.

At one time, EA was producing the best titles money could buy and one had little reason to look elsewhere. Now gamers have a sense that if you want the best, it's not EA. Whether it's looking at the NBA 2K series for our basketball game fix or users leaving Battlefield 2 because they feel the problems will never be fixed, it's a sense that we're sharing. We look at NBA Live over the last few years and we see the same basic game being re-released with new fancy features. The same underlying problems from the last few years are still there, some have been tweaked but the overall issues still exist. While there are plenty of new features, it gives the impression that EA is saying in response to the lingering issues "yeah, well, HEY! Look at this!" Be it All-Star Weekend (a old wish that EA has in fact fulfilled), superstar moves or dynasty additions. While those additions are nice to have, it is piling on a base that cannot support it. The base should be strengthened while the structure is constructed, instead of just building a new structure on the old crumbling base.

As alluded to earlier, it's not just the practice of EA's actions as much as the perception. EA is often criticized for rushing out products, going back on its word and ignoring fans. While EA may or may not be doing that, when one hears that, it's easy to fit what the company is doing into that mold. It doesn't help that when we look at other communities, where the game developers openly participate on the forums and seem to be actively involved in the community. While EA has made overtures to the NBA Live community over the years, whether it was hiring Tim, holding Community Summit/Day's, participating in interviews or sending in screenshots or videos. (incomplete sentances) It still seems like EA is distant and uninvolved in the community. Even if we have an inkling EA is reading the forums daily, the impression is still there that they aren't paying attention (in) anyway. Some of us are looking for little more than EA explaining why they did or didn't do something in the game, for acknowledgement of issues or ideas presented, for assistance in greater understanding of the game.

When we find major issues in the game and hear nothing from EA. When we contact EA, get a response that seems to do more to harm our opinion than satisfy us. When we're told we shouldn't share what EA tells us. It all serves to reinforce our negative perceptions.

We're willing to put in the effort to improve the game, the question that we're increasingly asking becomes, is EA?

Just a few minor errors.

As long time NBA Live fans, some of us even from when EA was putting "vs." in their titles, we have been around the block with EA many times. Most of us have gone beyond mere fans into "fanatics" spending countless man-hours on fan sites or making modifications or patches for the games. Even those of us who have not, have spent as many hours involving ourselves in an ever expanding community of other NBA Live fans. If anyone deserves the tag "hardcore fan" it's us. We've stuck by EA and NBA Live in the face of serious competition from the 2K series.

For us however, NBA Live 07 is the final straw. The one that broke the camel's back. The spark that set the field ablaze. Until this release we overlooked any flaws in the game, one's some of us considered major even if others of us considered them minor. But this release to us ignited feelings that EA doesn't care about its fans, which is why we're writing today.

Irregardless of whether EA does or does not care about its fan, the bigger issue is perception. The image that EA presents is that they don't. Every year, we as a community submit one or more wishlists, often with the same wishes from year to year. A lack of implementation of the wishes sows seeds of belief that EA isn't paying attention. When EA releases a game in which the CPU won't even use its bench, and overrides user substitutions, it sows seeds that EA didn't care and just wanted to cash in. When major online media doesn't get review copies, it leads to the belief that EA knew the product was defective but proceeded anyway. When community members contact EA and receive a response that seems to imply EA isn't too interested in fixing the problems and telling us to wait until the next game, it does quite a bit of harm to our faith in EA.

While we'd love a patch to fix the major issues with the game, that is the not major focus of our letter, as we have a patch petition for that. Our focus is not simply on this release, but a sense that we see in other EA-related communities whether it's the NFL gaming community or the people who play Battlefield 2.

At one time, EA was producing the best titles money could buy and one had little reason to look elsewhere. Now gamers have a sense that if you want the best, it's not EA. Whether it's looking at the NBA 2K series for our basketball game fix or users leaving Battlefield 2 because they feel the problems will never be fixed, it's a sense that we're sharing. We look at NBA Live over the last few years and we see the same basic game being re-released with new fancy features. The same underlying problems from the last few years are still there, some have been tweaked but the overall issues still exist. While there are plenty of new features, it gives the impression that EA is saying in response to the lingering issues "yeah, well, HEY! Look at this!" Be it All-Star Weekend (a old wish that EA has in fact fulfilled), superstar moves or dynasty additions. While those additions are nice to have, it is piling on a base that cannot support it. The base should be strengthened while the structure is constructed, instead of just building a new structure on the old crumbling base.

As alluded to earlier, it's not just the practice of EA's actions as much as the perception. EA is often criticized for rushing out products, going back on its word and ignoring fans. While EA may or may not be doing that, when one hears that, it's easy to fit what the company is doing into that mold. It doesn't help when we look at other communities, where the game developers openly participate on the forums and seem to be actively involved in the community. While EA has made overtures to the NBA Live community over the years, whether it was hiring Tim, holding Community Summit/Day's, participating in interviews or sending in screenshots or videos. It still seems like EA is distant and uninvolved in the community. Even if we have an inkling EA is reading the forums daily, the impression is still there they aren't paying attention in anyway. Some of us are looking for little more than EA explaining why they did or didn't do something in the game, for acknowledgement of issues or ideas presented, for assistance in greater understanding of the game.

When we find major issues in the game and hear nothing from EA. When we contact EA, get a response that seems to do more to harm our opinion than satisfy us. When we're told we shouldn't share what EA tells us. It all serves to reinforce our negative perceptions.

We're willing to put in the effort to improve the game, the question that we're increasingly asking becomes, is EA?

1. ones
2. Regardless
3. an
4. Days

if you're sending this anywhere, it would help to have correct spelling/grammar

EDIT: that, and what Cable said. Also, "paying attention in anyway" should be "in any way."

I don't have the game yet, so I can't relate to the current issues, but this letter is well put together and given that I have religiously played at least 6 different versions of this game, and agree on many points, I would be happy to support it.

Looks good so far
Perhaps include a line or two regarding the fact that many Live players has moved on, away from the game, and that it seems inevitable that if they continue with their ways, more and more people will gradually give up on the series in a much larger extent than they are now...

Nice letter benjii

You should add to the things about the NFL and Battlefield 2 series the fact that EA are loosing big time in the FIFA vs. Pro Evolution/Winning Eleven battle for a couple of years now. We don't want EA to make mistakes in NBA Live the same mistakes they did in FIFA.

You should also mention the fact that EA are paying more attention to the next-gen version eventhough there are way more PC users than XBOX360 users. I'm sick of seeing all the improvments they are making in the next-gen version while leaving the current-gen version behind. Maybe the next-gen version has bugs too, but I bet it's not half as bad as the current-gen version.

Keep up the good work!

I'm all in for this idea. Hopefully I'm considered a predominate member of these forums and my name will count lol.

But yeah, this is getting out of hand and shit needs to get done.

Whether EA does or does not care about its fans, the bigger issue is perception, and the image that EA presents is that they don't. Every year, we as a community submit one or more wishlists, often with the same wishes from year to year. A lack of implementation of the wishes sows seeds of belief that EA isn't paying attention. When EA releases a game in which the CPU won't even use its bench, and overrides user substitutions, it sows seeds that EA didn't care and just wanted to cash in. When major online media doesn't get review copies, it leads to the belief that EA knew the product was defective but proceeded anyway. When community members contact EA and receive a response that seems to imply EA isn't too interested in fixing the problems and telling us to wait until the next game, it does quite a bit of harm to our faith in EA.

- doesn't; present tense should be used, which is why the purpose of this letter.

We're willing to put in the effort to improve the game, the question that we're increasingly asking becomes, is EA (willing)?

.. or any other ending statement that is suitable, "is EA" seems a bit short and unclear.

Inserting the FIFA vs. Pro Evolution reference isn't a bad idea to support the letter's point of EA losing badly to the competition, considering that Pro Evolution doesn't even have licenses compared to the FIFA series.

Last edited by shadowgrin on Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

As long time NBA Live fans, some of us even from when EA was putting "vs." in their titles, we have been around the block with EA many times. Most of us have gone beyond mere fans into "fanatics" spending countless man-hours on fan sites or making modifications or patches for the games. Even those of us who have not, have spent as many hours involving ourselves in an ever expanding community of other NBA Live fans. If anyone deserves the tag "hardcore fan" it's us. We've stuck by EA and NBA Live in the face of serious competition from the 2K series.

For us however, NBA Live 07 is the final straw. The one that broke the camel's back. The spark that set the field ablaze. Until this release we overlooked any flaws in the game, ones some of us considered major even if others of us considered them minor. But this release to us ignited feelings that EA doesn't care about its fans, which is why we're writing today.

Whether EA does or does not care about its fans, the bigger issue is perception, and the image that EA presents is that they don't. Every year, we as a community submit one or more wishlists, often with the same wishes from year to year. A lack of implementation of the wishes sows seeds of belief that EA isn't paying attention. When EA releases a game in which the CPU won't even use its bench, and overrides user substitutions, it sows seeds that EA didn't care and just wanted to cash in. When major online media doesn't get review copies, it leads to the belief that EA knew the product was defective but proceeded anyway. When community members contact EA and receive a response that seems to imply EA isn't too interested in fixing the problems and telling us to wait until the next game, it does quite a bit of harm to our faith in EA.

While we'd love a patch to fix the major issues with the game, that is the not major focus of our letter, as we have a patch petition for that. Our focus is not simply on this release, but a sense that we see in other EA-related communities whether it's the NFL gaming community or the people who play Battlefield 2.

At one time, EA was producing the best titles money could buy and one had little reason to look elsewhere. Now gamers have a sense that if you want the best, it's not EA. Whether it's looking at the NBA 2K series for our basketball game fix or users leaving Battlefield 2 because they feel the problems will never be fixed, it's a sense that we're sharing. We look at NBA Live over the last few years and we see the same basic game being re-released with new fancy features. The same underlying problems from the last few years are still there, some have been tweaked but the overall issues still exist. While there are plenty of new features, it gives the impression that EA is saying in response to the lingering issues "yeah, well, HEY! Look at this!" Be it All-Star Weekend (an old wish that EA has in fact fulfilled), superstar moves or dynasty additions. While those additions are nice to have, it is piling on a base that cannot support it. The base should be strengthened while the structure is constructed, instead of just building a new structure on the old crumbling base.

As alluded to earlier, it's not just the practice of EA's actions as much as the perception. EA is often criticized for rushing out products, going back on its word and ignoring fans. While EA may or may not be doing that, when one hears that, it's easy to fit what the company is doing into that mold. It doesn't help when we look at other communities, where the game developers openly participate on the forums and seem to be actively involved in the community. While EA has made overtures to the NBA Live community over the years, whether it was hiring Tim, holding Community Summit/Days, participating in interviews or sending in screenshots or videos, it still seems like EA is distant and uninvolved in the community. Even if we have an inkling EA is reading the forums daily, the impression is still there that they aren't paying attention at all. Some of us are looking for little more than EA explaining why they did or didn't do something in the game, for acknowledgement of issues or ideas presented, for assistance in greater understanding of the game.

When we find major issues in the game and hear nothing from EA. When we contact EA, get a response that seems to do more to harm our opinion than satisfy us. When we're told we shouldn't share what EA tells us. It all serves to reinforce our negative perceptions.

We're willing to put in the effort to improve the game, the question that we're increasingly asking becomes, is EA?

I understand the point you're trying to make with your fragmented sentences in the second to last paragraph, but perhaps just for clarity's sake you should use commas because the whole thing is very confusing until the end.

The other option would be to say,

When we find major issues in the game, we hear nothing from EA. When we contact EA, we get a response that seems to do more harm to our sopinion than satisfy us. When we're told we shouldn't share what EA tells us, it all servers to reinforce our negative perceptions.

just a thought...

If the people at EA didn´t notice the substitution bug aswell as whole lot of other flaws in Live 07, what makes you think they would spot a few minor spelling/grammar issues?

Seriously though, nice letter Benji. Well written and to the point.

^ The letter isn't exclusively for EA, it's planned to be sent to other gaming sites as well.

My freind bought the game a few days ago.....

I though Dynasty Mode was VERY imrpoved, but the gameplay is brutal (even worse then last year) I would definetly sign this.

I think it's a fantastic letter, I think it strikes the right chord between still a little bit of an NBA Live fan and an unsatisfied customer. Gaming sites such as IGN, Gamespot and Gamespy will probably not like to post it because a lot of the material they get is from EA given they dominate the gaming industry, but if you don't try, you'll never know.

So here we go...

Excellent letter, i really like the whole "the consumer fighting back" idea.

But I like to think that we, the consumer, have quite a few options on making a dynamic statement. Not that the letter isn't great, but a formal complaint letter can only do so much.

We live in the age of the Internet 2. A time that communication has evolved from the "1 on 1" aspect of email. We have resources that can create a huge impact on EA's market. I give you two alternative options:

www.YouTube.com and www.MySpace.com

The two most widely used Internet websites. A huge audience, from all genres.

Getting your "NBA Live 07 Complaint" video featured on YouTube's main page is equivelent of 50 thousand people getting the message : "Dont buy the game" . The same can be said for MySpace, who's audience is close to EA's consumer group target.

I really think a video (and when i say video, i mean a well produced, well directed video) pointing out the major flaws of this years game, could get EA's attention.

Awaiting benji's comments.

This could be great. If we can get the support of the big sites like IGN, OS, etc. then that is key. We just may get results.

As for the letter itself, my initial thought was 'is this too long? will a busy webmaster really want to read this?' but after reading, i realised every paragraph has a valid point and intention.

I think that should be thought of though. Is it too long?

On the other hand, it may not get taken as seriously if it is short.

But yeah, fine work ben. I think the letter is fine overall. It cleary puts forward our intentions. Where do we sign?

Great idea and letter Benji

My feeling is that they are trying to leave us to fix the problems with our limited knowledge of how the game was engineered, when they could probably fix the problem easily in a days work since they know how everything works.....

Maybe we should add something like that??

Yeah and like Nick asked, where do we sign?

Excellent letter, i really like the whole "the consumer fighting back" idea.

But I like to think that we, the consumer, have quite a few options on making a dynamic statement. Not that the letter isn't great, but a formal complaint letter can only do so much.

We live in the age of the Internet 2. A time that communication has evolved from the "1 on 1" aspect of email. We have resources that can create a huge impact on EA's market. I give you two alternative options:

www.YouTube.com and www.MySpace.com

The two most widely used Internet websites. A huge audience, from all genres.

Getting your "NBA Live 07 Complaint" video featured on YouTube's main page is equivelent of 50 thousand people getting the message : "Dont buy the game" . The same can be said for MySpace, who's audience is close to EA's consumer group target.

I really think a video (and when i say video, i mean a well produced, well directed video) pointing out the major flaws of this years game, could get EA's attention.

Awaiting benji's comments.

A most excellent idea. I'd rather the patchmakers focus on producing a video addressing their issues now, than modding the game. But it's their choice. I'd help if I knew how to. Just use Fraps in the Instant Replay? I can't do editing.

Incredible letter, very professional! About the video idea, I think it's time for Tony to show up!

i don't usually post, but i do brose these forums, however, i wish to impart some wisdom of how businesses work.

EA is in the business of making money. With the exclusive license agreement they made with the NFL it is evident that they were more worried about shareholders and profit than what's best for thier fans or the improvement of thier product (madden)

With that said, all these letters and complaints to EA are all in vain. The only way you guys ( live fans) are going to get thier attention is buy NOT BUYING THIER PRODUCTS. You think live sucks? DON'T buy it then.

It is bad business in EA's eyes to change or improve the game if its going to continue to sell regardless if its a better game than before or not. EA knows, and i've seen this happen, that as soon as EA fans stop buying thier product then EA will have the incentive of wanting to make the product better, because THEY HAVE TO. They DON"T have to do SH*T if they are selling games, and you can blame yourself for buying into EA's Crap.

2K HAs to put out a good game in order for them to be competitive against EA, because EA has a huge following of loyal fans who trust the name over the quality of the product.

Keep telling yourselves "EA will make it better next year" and keep getting thier products, you don't deserve to play great titles like nfl 2k5 and nba 2k7 (xbox360)

Just remember i told you so when same time next year we will have these same complaints AGAIN, why? Because you spoke with your mouth instead of with your money.

Um, the idea of this is to make people aware of EA's poor efforts through the big sites of the internet.

If there's bad press all over the media (the media being the internet in this case) about Live07, then that is bad business. There's your incentive...

Signed. 10/1/06

While I do agree with the 'vote with your wallet' mentality, as it is the most effective tool you have, I don't necessarily agree with letting a company slip by to bamboozle other consumers.

I would gladly sign this letter, as I've played and bought this game since Lakers vs. Celtics on the Sega Genesis.

The gaming community should feel responsible for calling horseshit on products that are defective. Defective and 'man this game is crap' can be two different things or the same, but the community should make an effort to clarify and announce defective games.

Utilizing YouTube, MySpace and other 'buzz' vehicles along with gamer community sites could be a very effective tool for at least warning our gamer compadres not to buy a game and to create enough splash to get the game fixed and hence get what we paid for.

Right now for NBA Live 2007 for the PC, the crash to desktop bug is enough for me to warrant this game defective. Note, that's excluding the other major bugs like substitutions and PG domination, etc.

Looks to me like EA is going to dump all us PC users in the trash for making all this stuff. (The one petition is fine though) They are going to think we are to much to handle and stop the PC version of the game then what will we be left with? There is no way Im playing this or any other b-ball game on a console. You cant update/mod it or anything.