PC users wuz robbed

[JWL3]

Just finished watching those new XBOX 360 videos of Live 2006. This is ridiculous. Compared to that, our PC graphics look like PONG. I don't believe that a PC's graphics capability is that inferior. In fact, with a $500 video card, we should have 10x the processing power of any crappy console. So pissed that we got screwed on this one.

[Andreas Dahl]

Well, they could have delayed the PC release until November/December; and as you said, people with a $500 card could probably play it, but what about the vast majority that doesn't have such a good/expensive computer? Enough people are having trouble turning on lighting as it is, they wouldn't even be able to begin to load the main menu of the X360 version. And when it comes down to it, EA isn't going to throw away a bunch of money by doing something that only pleases that few people.

I recon we can see the PC version having the same base as the X360 version in two years tho..

[ignatu]

Anyone can make a nice movie that looks real. Is it a good game? Oh, no dynasty mode?

[dada]

Well, they could have delayed the PC release until November/December; and as you said, people with a $500 card could probably play it, but what about the vast majority that doesn't have such a good/expensive computer? Enough people are having trouble turning on lighting as it is, they wouldn't even be able to begin to load the main menu of the X360 version. And when it comes down to it, EA isn't going to throw away a bunch of money by doing something that only pleases that few people.

I recon we can see the PC version having the same base as the X360 version in two years tho..

you can have cheaper ones and have just as good graphics. i think it sucks also. my computer has pretty good specs and i hate playing games where i feel my pc potential is being wasted.

[BBBBBlockMe]

[quote="dadamafia"][/quote]

LOL, I choked myself after looking at your Sig..

[mikemach]

You guy's do realize that the ATI card in the X360 is about 3 to 4 generations ahead of any card out now including the new Nvidia 7800 cards? The Xbox will also be running at the equivalent of 3 3.4 ghz processors without the lag of a operating system in the background. I'm a true die-hard PC game guy but this console is the shit. I've actually seen game play from a friend who is a manager at Gamestop from a recent trip to a conference that they attended and the whole game looked like a real broadcast like the Tim Duncan video that was released a week or to ago.Things look good for us down the road no matter what we are playing.
Mike

[JWL3]

You guy's do realize that the ATI card in the X360 is about 3 to 4 generations ahead of any card out now including the new Nvidia 7800 cards? The Xbox will also be running at the equivalent of 3 3.4 ghz processors without the lag of a operating system in the background. I'm a true die-hard PC game guy but this console is the shit. I've actually seen game play from a friend who is a manager at Gamestop from a recent trip to a conference that they attended and the whole game looked like a real broadcast like the Tim Duncan video that was released a week or to ago.Things look good for us down the road no matter what we are playing.
Mike

You can't be serious. The XBOX can't possibly be that powerful. If ATI can truly make a video card for the Xbox that powerful, why wouldn't they make a PC video card at the same level - especially since they're charging $400 for an ATI X850 XT. (the XBOX alone costs only $400). I read this somewhere in Tom's Hardware Guide:


http://www.tgdaily.com/2005/06/22/peddi ... index.html

"Speaking of which... Nvidia has a wonderful comparison related to that number. As it turns out, 302 million transistors are more than in the original Xbox GPU, the PS2 GPU, the ATI Game Cube Flipper chip, the Game Cube Gekko chip, the Xbox Pentium CPU, the PS2 emotion engine CPU, and the Athlon FX 56 CPU - combined !"

[mikemach]

You guy's do realize that the ATI card in the X360 is about 3 to 4 generations ahead of any card out now including the new Nvidia 7800 cards? The Xbox will also be running at the equivalent of 3 3.4 ghz processors without the lag of a operating system in the background. I'm a true die-hard PC game guy but this console is the shit. I've actually seen game play from a friend who is a manager at Gamestop from a recent trip to a conference that they attended and the whole game looked like a real broadcast like the Tim Duncan video that was released a week or to ago.Things look good for us down the road no matter what we are playing.
Mike

You can't be serious. The XBOX can't possibly be that powerful. If ATI can truly make a video card for the Xbox that powerful, why wouldn't they make a PC video card at the same level - especially since they're charging $400 for an ATI X850 XT. (the XBOX alone costs only $400). I read this somewhere in Tom's Hardware Guide:


http://www.tgdaily.com/2005/06/22/peddi ... index.html

"Speaking of which... Nvidia has a wonderful comparison related to that number. As it turns out, 302 million transistors are more than in the original Xbox GPU, the PS2 GPU, the ATI Game Cube Flipper chip, the Game Cube Gekko chip, the Xbox Pentium CPU, the PS2 emotion engine CPU, and the Athlon FX 56 CPU - combined !"

Custom IBM PowerPC-based CPU
-3 symmetrical cores at 3.2 GHz each
-2 hardware threads per core
-1 VMX-128 vector unit per core
-1 MB L2 cache

CPU Game Math Performance
-9 billion dots per second

Custom ATI Graphics Processor
-500 MHz
-10 MB embedded DRAM
-48-way parallel floating-point shader pipelines
-unified shader architecture

Memory
-512 MB GDDR3 RAM
-700 MHz DDR

Memory Bandwidth
-22.4 GB/s memory interface bus bandwidth
-256 GB/s memory bandwidth to EDRAM
-21.6 GB/s frontside bus

Audio
-Multi channel surround sound output
-Supports 48kHz 16-bit audio
-320 independent decompression channels
-32-bit processing
-256 audio channels

Another spec sheet.

A 20GB hard drive, high-def game support and a 500MHz ATI graphics processor: Glimpse the Xbox 360's system performance specifications as provided by Microsoft.




Custom IBM PowerPC-based CPU
• Three symmetrical cores running at 3.2 GHz each
• Two hardware threads per core; six hardware threads total
• VMX-128 vector unit per core; three total
• 128 VMX-128 registers per hardware thread
• 1 MB L2 cache

CPU Game Math Performance
• 9 billion dot product operations per second

Custom ATI Graphics Processor
• 500MHz processor
• 10 MB of embedded DRAM
• 48-way parallel floating-point dynamically scheduled shader pipelines
• Unified shader architecture

Polygon Performance
• 500 million triangles per second

Pixel Fill Rate
• 16 gigasamples per second fill rate using 4x MSAA

Shader Performance
• 48 billion shader operations per second

Memory
• 512 MB of GDDR3 RAM
• 700 MHz of DDR
• Unified memory architecture

Memory Bandwidth
• 22.4 GB/s memory interface bus bandwidth
• 256 GB/s memory bandwidth to EDRAM
• 21.6 GB/s front-side bus

Overall System Floating-Point Performance
• 1 teraflop

Storage
• Detachable and upgradeable 20GB hard drive
• 12x dual-layer DVD-ROM
• Memory Unit support starting at 64 MB

I/O
• Support for up to four wireless game controllers
• Three USB 2.0 ports
• Two memory unit slots

Spec sheet 3


Graphics Processor and Memory



Embedded Video Memory 10MB
Graphics Processor Custom ATI Processor
Graphics Core Clock Speed 500MHz
System Memory 512MB UMA (Shared with GPU)
Vector Units 1 VMX-128 unit per core (3 total)
CPU Math Performance 9 Billion Dot Product Operations per Second
System Memory Bandwith 22.4GB/s, 256GB/s to EDRAM
Memory Architecture Unified Memory Architecture
Shaders 48-way Parallel Floating Point Dynamically-Scheduled, 48 billion Operations/s
Video Memory 512MB UMA (Shared with CPU)
Fill Rate (pixels) 16 Gigasamples/s using 4X MSAA
Fill Rate (triangles) 500 Million/s



Product Identification



Manufacturer Microsoft
Product Line Microsoft Xbox 360



Video Output



Resolution 480p, 480i, 720p, 1080i



Expansion and Connectivity



Digital Media Formats DVD-Video, DVD-ROM, DVD-R/RW, DVD+R/RW, CD-DA, CD-ROM, CD-R, CD-RW, WMA CD, MP3 CD, JPEG Photo CD
Game Media Format Dual-Layer DVD-ROM
Other I/O Connectors 3 USB 2.0, 2 Memory Slots, Ethernet Port (RJ45)
Controller Ports Supports up to 4 Controllers
Plug and Play Storage 20GB Removable Hard Drive
Standard AV Output Connectors n/a
Integrated Communications 802.11 A/B/G Wi-Fi ready, adapter not included



Processor



Processor Core Spec 3 Cores, 2 hardware threads per core
Marketing Performance Measurement 1 TFLOP
Processor Clock Speed 3.2GHz
L2 Cache 1MB
Processor Custom IBM PowerPC CPU





You need to realize that the current crop of cards are more powerfull than the PC's now and the Processors can't even keep up with the cards now that they are able to have more than one GPU on the card. They aren't even being taxed on the PC. Yeah some games such as fear are kicking PC's butt but it's not the card it's the PC side of it. You got to remember the BOX isn't running a operating system or other things in the background and this gives it a major advantage to free up resources and cycles to kick up the power. The PSX3 is pretty much on the same power level as the XBOX but it has more of a graphics edge but the programming for it is insane according to the developers. If you have read anything about the 360 you will know all of these facts already and would have seen the statements about the ATI cards. I'm somewhat suspect on it all until I see it in my hands because they all do a lot of marketing bullshit. Your statement of why wouldn't ATI go that route with a PC card reverberates what I said. The latest cards are not even being taxed now. Hell I run my Nvidia 6800 ultra 256mb OC card with everything maxed with no problems. It will be like that for at least another year before games come out that will start to strain it in the least. ATI can sell what 2 million Xbox360's with the newest card in it and make a huge profit from Microsucks on the deal or develop a another card to sell to PC users 6 months later after releasing the new card. Which would sell what? 75,000 Hell I bet that's a huge stretch to say. PC users as us will see the benefits after the release.

Mike

[JWL3]

Thought I'd never see the day that video cards outpace CPU's. How could this ever happen? Is AMD and Intel slacking off or something? How can Nvidia and ATI (two companies with 1/1000 the resources of Intel and AMD) develop something so far beyond today's CPU processors?

[mikemach]

I think it's a matter of Bottlenecking. I used to be the front side bus issue then the Processor's then the cards didn't have enough memory then they put on the on card GPU and it opened up the card makers bandwidth so now Intel are catching up. I think a lot of the fact that ATI is so far ahead on this Xbox360 card is the fact its a game console and not meant to run Word and ever other thing. Just a media center and games. I hope it all lives up to the hype but I bet we are in agreement that I've still have yet to see consoles out do a high end PC rig on graphics. We are comparing 400.00 machines to a 2500 to 4000.00 PC though. My thinking is the fact that every game will be 780i and 1080i will help a ton. The videos of Madden,NBA Live and NBA 2k6 are really impressive and being that I saw actual footage of Live I have to admit it blows any graphics we have seen out of the water as of yet in a sports game. I usually do use the word Jaw Dropping much but I had to pick my mouth up of my chest after seeing the footage my friend had taken at the conference for the Gamestop Mangers.
Mike

[k083]

Well, don't get your hopes up just yet. The 7800 and X1800 series aren't actually next gen... at all. They are really refreshes of current gen technology. Both companies are working on true next gen hardware right now, with support for DirectX 10 when Windows Vista is released hopefully in 2006. I'v seen a video from CryTek, the makers of FarCry, running on DX 10. The results are nothing short of any of the X360 offerings. And really, if you think a $400 dollar console is generations ahead of $500 current video cards, you need to think again.

[JWL3]

On a side discussion. glad to know consoles are finally upping their resolution. For current gen PS2 and Xbox's, the max resolution they could show was what - like 400 lines of resolution? That's worse than the lowest setting for a PC 640x480. Not only that, 640x480 - is on a small monitor whereas 400 lines was usually on a 32" tv. Talk about big blocky chunks of graphics. This was a big turnoff of consoles for me. That plus no patches, no mouse for 1st person shooters, expensive controllers, no hard drive saves, no mods, expensive games etc. etc. etc. I don't think I'll ever move to a console from a PC.

[mikemach]

Well Chief the ATI card is actually ahead quite a bit from what is out now and going off of what is to come in 2006 and DX10 is yet to be seen. How many times have we seen the old its going to run at a clock rate of bla bla and when we get the cards they are way lower than expected. This card is actually been verified and that's why I'm kinda jumping on its bandwagon. Vista is still a hope I have friends running it at the moment and its not that really big of a deal. CryTek are definitely ones to push to envelope but they have been quoted to say that the 360 is something special.

JWL3,
I agree with you I can't play a damn FPS on a game pad but the 360 has several USB 2.0 ports so maybe we will be able to hook up a mouse and keyboard. I'm running my PC on a Mitsubishi 62" 1080p DLP TV at the moment as we speak at 780p @ 1280 720 and running NBA Live on it is really sweet and if the Xbox 360 is going to be 780p it will kick some ass. The game looks and runs better on it than on my monitor. I must have a crap monitor all I can say. Consoles are consoles I agree but it seems they are closing the gap this time around and in the next year we will see the PC take the lead again but the PC side of things is getting sparse and consoles are the money makers. Microsucks has stated after the 360 release they are going full tilt at the PC game market so that's a awesome statement for us. You will be able to get updates for the games and patches and so on but I bet we will be shit out of luck on mods. My only worries are with downloading content and hackers getting into it with Trojans and other crap.
Mike

[Cyaneyes]

I discussed this a time ago, in another forum. As a console gamer who prefers consoles over PCs, I must say... X360 arquitecture=PC arquitecture in 2007-2008. Symetric cores and unified ALUs (48!!!! unified ALUs, something UNSEEN in PC world). X360 GPU has its own "almost DX10" API.

No more PC dinasty in gaming... will consoles recover their lost throne? I hope so, they actually exceeds PCs in the sales department (I mean games).

No current PC can equal X360 in terms of efficiency, PC is designed to work, it tries to stand out at all things and it specializes at nothing. Ok, you can buy a new CPU from time to time. For example, a 7 GHz one in some years. Could it be superior with a new 512 MB RAM graphics card and 2 GB of system RAM?

I don't think so. Not because of the PC itself but because developers think on medium-class PCs when they create a new game. Half Life 2 lightning will be better in Xbox (current , not the physics or graphics, though, because it is close hardware, so programmers can take full advantage of GPU capabilities.

Memory in consoles is a VERY different matter. Ah, btw, I forgot to mention X360 GPU has 10Mb of eMbedded RAM. It will drastically accelerate graphical process, with FSAAx4 and 720p resolution for free (no impact on GPU performance).

John Carmack will use Xbox 360 as primary developer platform because future PCs arquitecture will be similar to X360, PS3 is ok (superior CPU, compared with X360, inferior GPU because shaders are the future in graphics, there aren't unified ALUs in PS3 GPU) but asymetric, but I am not a techie so...

[mikemach]

If Carmack is blowing the 360 as much as he Say's he is it must be pretty dang good. I saw interviews with the Epic guy's and Valve, they are of the same thinking they said what you wrote above. Coding for the 360 will be a easy port over to the PC and the coding is similar as the PC now. The problem with the Playstation 3 isn't the hardware but the Dev kits and coding for them is so freaking hard. If people like the Epic guy's and Id one's are saying this then it must be a pain in the ass. Carmack and those guy's have pretty much sold there engine's to every other company to use. The Havoc engine from Half-Life 2 is what's being used in NBA Live 360 and those are some of the best real world physics in a game out now. People seem to get confused that since this new generation of console is coming it's still in the jaggie edge era. With the HDTV it should be gone now. I'd say that the first games are going to be hit or miss and the second ones coming out this time next year will start to really blow us away when they get used to the power and what they can pull off. Look at the XBOX 1 AND PSX 2 now and the games. I'm counting the day's. OH if your in doubt go to your local Gamestop or EB games and Wal-Mart now and try it out they have some 360's setup on 27" HDTV'S running 3 game's to show it off. They are not the final codes of the game but 80% done according to the developers.
Mike

[Cyaneyes]

The Havoc engine from Half-Life 2 is what's being used in NBA Live 360 and those are some of the best real world physics in a game out now.

Wow, HL2 engine, wth?? Thanks for the info, I didn't know that.

People seem to get confused that since this new generation of console is coming it's still in the jaggie edge era. With the HDTV it should be gone now. I'd say that the first games are going to be hit or miss and the second ones coming out this time next year will start to really blow us away when they get used to the power and what they can pull off.
Mike

100% agree

[tongefactor40]

Well, they could have delayed the PC release until November/December; and as you said, people with a $500 card could probably play it, but what about the vast majority that doesn't have such a good/expensive computer? Enough people are having trouble turning on lighting as it is, they wouldn't even be able to begin to load the main menu of the X360 version. And when it comes down to it, EA isn't going to throw away a bunch of money by doing something that only pleases that few people.

I recon we can see the PC version having the same base as the X360 version in two years tho..

well its not like they would have made the baseline graphics equal to an ebox 360, those who had lesser computers could just turn down the settings, while those you forked over a few bux for their hardware could enjoy it like future 360 owners will.

i guess the lack of graphics dont bother me too much, but in the end i think ea could do a lot better, especially when you look at all the other games out there for pc right now

[#12]

You guy's do realize that the ATI card in the X360 is about 3 to 4 generations ahead of any card out now including the new Nvidia 7800 cards? The Xbox will also be running at the equivalent of 3 3.4 ghz processors without the lag of a operating system in the background. I'm a true die-hard PC game guy but this console is the shit. I've actually seen game play from a friend who is a manager at Gamestop from a recent trip to a conference that they attended and the whole game looked like a real broadcast like the Tim Duncan video that was released a week or to ago.Things look good for us down the road no matter what we are playing.
Mike

You can't be serious. The XBOX can't possibly be that powerful. If ATI can truly make a video card for the Xbox that powerful, why wouldn't they make a PC video card at the same level - especially since they're charging $400 for an ATI X850 XT. (the XBOX alone costs only $400). I read this somewhere in Tom's Hardware Guide:


http://www.tgdaily.com/2005/06/22/peddi ... index.html

Believe it man, the xbox 360 graphics cards CURRENTLY owns the pcs best graphics card.However the PS3 graphics and engine owns the xbox360 like hundred times more. Microsoft said that their XBOX360 is a multimedia machine, while Sony said there PS3 is a gaming machine.

Dont worry though, the PC graphics card will eventually past the ps3 graphics and engine soon. In fact, they could do it now if they want.ATI/Radeon is just working for sony/microsoft/nintendo; which is why the graphics cards in PC arent better then next gen consoles yet

[Cyaneyes]

X360 GPU owns PS3 GPU. Not because of geometry, PS3 GPU is superior if you look at numbers -polygons mainly- but shaders are the future, and the G70 is not good enough if you compare with Xenos. There are some techie forums full of info (Beyond3d, for instance) on the subject, better take a look there.

Why Sony did not mention Nvidia GPU pipelines in E3? Numbers war all over the place, with teraflops here and there, but you end wondering where are Nvidia GPU pipes... While time ago Nvidia had the lead, ATI graphics technology is superior nowadays, the new Xenos has 48 pipelines, wich is amazing.

Nvidia just said that the new GPU is 2 times more powerful than a 6800. Sounds like a Voodoo 2 SLI to me, since they just added speed and power to the micro but that's the innovation, no new features. In the case of ATI GPU, those 48 pipelines are something unseen, like I said. Nvidia new GPU seems a tweaked and disguised 6800.

Even so, PS3 will be a very good console but X360 has something special, I pre-ordered it already.

[Donatello]

Wow, entire paragraphs for almost all posts in this thread. Amazing.

Anyway, on topic....the XBox 360 looks absolutely nuts. If I actually had money to spend I would definitely be getting it.

[tracywtfacy]

ps3's better than xbox 360 isn't it? I'm playing it on pc with highest res and full graphics, and must say it looks great and runs much smoother than 2005... just how much better is it better on xbox???

[mikemach]

The PSX3 is supposed to be twice as fast but like he said the Xbox is way easier to code and they are saying that the numbers game just about equals out to a dead heat. What I read today said that the PSX3 is going to have graphics equal to 2 6800 Ultras running SLI and that's pretty good. What I saw on my buddies video's blew away what we are seeing on our PC's at this time. I run a 6800 ultra oc 256mb card maxed out on the details and resolution and I hate to admit it but there's no comparison it blows us away.
Mike

[point-guard]

hmmm..too complicated..haha..i mean..its ok about the graphics for me..but it seems like 360 have more features..such as shoot around before games..new player making..why cant we have those?i m not talking bt sweats and stuffs..just features..damn

[mikemach]

hmmm..too complicated..haha..i mean..its ok about the graphics for me..but it seems like 360 have more features..such as shoot around before games..new player making..why cant we have those?i m not talking bt sweats and stuffs..just features..damn

I agree with you 100% and I think that will be the next in every game deal coming soon.. It's a killer idea to give you something to do while waiting on the load times. I pumped just to see it getting better. I'm one of those guy's that likes the game about 80% sim and 20% arcade to still be fun. I just hope it lives up to all the hype we've seen so far and read.
Mike

[beau_boy04]

I've heard that ATi drivers were really really bad so I'm sticking with Nvidia video cards. I will be getting a new mobo and AMD 64 X2 on Christmas and of course welcoming the pci express too