most underrated and overrated in the game?

[fgrep15]

Sorry, I thought he had like a 50 something rating in the original, like I said, I've already updated everyone, so I don't know what the original ratings are. Even if he isn't underatted, I know their were many errors in his ratings, he's a very good one on one defender, and I remember his defensive awareness was very low.

Also Metisis, wouldn't you agree that Arenas and Hughes are underatted? Arenas is a much better shooter than his ratings, and he's averaging 25.4 points | 4 rebounds and I think 5.2 assists this season, as opposed to 19.9 points | 4.6 rebounds, and 5.0 assists last season, but he was injured last season which was why he performed so badly [for his standards], but the guys doing the ratings likely didn't care or know how it impacted him. Also they didn't make him quick or fast enough if I remember correctly.

Hughes is leading the league in steals with 2.8, and averaging 21 points | 6 rebounds and 5 assists last season he averaged I think 18 points, 5 rebounds, 2 assists, and 1.5 steals or so, so I'd say he deserves much better ratings than what his last season numbers wouldn't proposed. Both Hughes and Arenas have even been said to be MIP candidates by some people, though Arenas only improved his decision making, but that's about all, so they should get better ratings.

Jamison only needed to have his primcy up because everyone kinda knew he wouldn't only average 15 points on the Wizards, and knew he would average 20+. They made him too good an offensive rebounder because he was doing very well in that area as a Mav, and his inside scoring was too high, and I think his defensive awareness was too high too because Jamison is a terrible defender.

Haywood, I don't remember if he was underatted, I assumed, but he was good in things he shouldn't be, and bad in things he shouldn't be, I remmeber changing some ratings around and still having him at about the same overall.

Bosh also couldn't shoot too well if I remember correctly.

fgrep15 y do u think kwame is underrated? i think hes one of the most overrated players in the game. hes around 66 ovrl and averages wat? 5 ppg, 4 rpg in real life? i kno hes injured but taking everything into account hes one of the most overrated players in the game, and in the real nba as well (imo).

He averaged 10 and 7 last season, you fail to realize that his season averages so far don't mean much because like you said he's been injured, and hasn't really been playing big minutes. In March he's averaged 7.5 points and 10.0 rebounds in 31.1 MPG, so if he continues to get minutes [though he hurt his ankle in practice or something, but it's minor], he can average about 10 points and 9 rebounds for the rest of the year. His offense isn't there yet, but he's been doing good on the boards and defensively.

[mchakko]

I was annoyed by all the low ratings for the legends. are they low because of primacy or something in the context of being on a legend team? Or are they just rated absurdly low? obviously kareem should be over 90, moses malone mid 80's etc.


as for the nlsc rosters, jordan being 99 is just dumb

[Matthew]

Agreed, he should be 100

[Andrew]

as for the nlsc rosters, jordan being 99 is just dumb

What ratings would you suggest, considering the overall is significant in trades and free agency, but not necessarily simulated performance or on-court play? The way the overall ratings are calculated these days, it's not a good idea to completely base ratings on the overall they will produce, though a couple of the legends are underrated in the default rosters, Moses Malone being a good example.

[Strike Freedom]

how can a person be rated in numbers..
it won't be consistent..
so don't worry about the numbers..

[ShivaSquad]

cliff robinson is so overrated hes 65

[mchakko]

Honestly I don't have a good feel for the ratings yet, but judging overall, basically no legend should be under 80, with possible exception of folks like Tom Chambers.

What's the 2nd highest player in the game, maybe 95? Jordan shouldn't be significantly higher than Oscar Roberton, Wilt, Bird, Magic. It seems silly to max anyone out at 99 overall no matter how hyped they are.

I'm going to go through and tweak these I think, I plan to work on some retro rosters too.


The acid test is that the legends have overalls that put them right in the midst of current guys who are 'pretty good'....they're legends, they should be rated better than current players except those who will be looked at as legends themselves someday (kg, shaq, duncan...)

[Matthew]

Go watch a bulls game from 91-93 before saying mj was hyped up. He was always better than the hype, and thats why he should be 100.

[mchakko]

Please...sure he was great 91-93, during that stretch when he actually passed the ball he was probably as good as anyone ever. But this knee jerk 'best ever' stuff is a joke. Later he was just bailed out by the refs, before that he was just a ballhog. Top 5 all time yeah? Greatest ever? Possibly. Head and shoulders above everyone else like the media says? Ridiculous. Watch a game from before '91 and see some other players who accomplished as much or more than Jordan.

bottom line, anyone who is elevated to some deity status is automatically overrated. rating of 99 or 100 = deity status, knee jerk "perfect player" rating without critically thinking about their ratings

[Strike Freedom]

i think Jordan can become 99.. after coming back from 1st retirement..
cuz he perfected in his jump shots etc.. and passing and so on..
He was like 95 before retiring the first time..
and he would be 80+ after coming back the 2nd time ..

[Matthew]

"knee jerk"? you're a spastic. Jordan was a ballhog yet wilt wasnt? Look at that stella lineup he had and look at his fg% compared to other players on the team. It wasnt until Pippen and Grant began to mature is when Jordan became a complete leader, and once he did, other teams couldnt put 2 or 3 guys on him, and thats why the bulls were so unstopable.

To come up with a valid reason as to why mj isnt the best you have to use a comination of the other top 5 players (kareem has more mvps, russell more rings, wilt has a 100 point game). When thats the only way to say he wasnt the best, you know he is that much better than ANYONE else.

He was just that good.

[mchakko]

I look at Jordan vs Bird as a good comparison.

Bird - better shooter, passer, rebounder
Jordan - better pure scorer, better defender.

pretty equal. winning: bird 3 championships in the 80's, jordan 6 in the watered down 90's...pretty equal.

Wilt a ballhog? Centers as ballhogs doesn't even make sense, centers aren't supposed to be playmakers...

the Bulls were so unstoppable largely because of their defense for the last 3 championships. They weren't even a really good offensive team at that point. Their biggest strength was the length and defense of Jordan, Pippen, and Harper. Pippen was enough to lock down a PG with his size, and Jordan/Harper were big enough to pick up a SF. And honestly they never would have gotten past the Pacers without Kukoc getting super hot. Jordan definitely was a complete leader around 91-93, and at that time he put up stats that were comparable to Bird, Oscar Robertson at their peak (and what LeBron is approaching...) around 30/7/7, that's about the peak the NBA has ever seen for a non-center; sounds like a rating of 95. When LeBron James Jr. or somebody comes around in 2030 and averages 30 pts, 15 reb, 10 assists, maybe they can get a 99 or 100 rating; for now a 99 rating only seems appropriate for that 7 foot 5 point guard with perfect ratings that's fun (for about 5 minutes) to create-a-player and dominate the game. no one has ever stood out from the rest of the league like that, not even jordan

[mchakko]

Yeah I just looked closer at the NLSC ratings...the biggest problem is Jordan's 99 FGbase, that implies he's the greatest shooter in NBA history; how can he have a great FGbase than Bird? I'd drop him to maybe 95, 93 - he gets a bonus for being probably the greatest pure scorer ever, but a lot of that skill is accounted for in his quickness, jumping etc. Then inside scoring of 92 seems excessive for a guard - the next highest for SF/SG is Gervin with 86. Something like that would probably be appropriate. I bet dropping those two ratings would make him a nice 95/96 overall, settling him in at the top about even with the top 5 all time, where he belongs.

[IronMan]

Bosh is definitely underrated... I don't think he's had a single rerate yet since the release of the game.

Matt Bonner too... look at his field goal and 3pt percentages. 55.7% from the field and 47.5% from the 3pt line. I'll say it now, keep an eye out for this guy, he's going to be a solid player in the NBA.

And don't say I have Toronto goggles or whatever, I only listed two from Toronto because that's the team I watch the most.

[Andrew]

Yeah I just looked closer at the NLSC ratings...the biggest problem is Jordan's 99 FGbase, that implies he's the greatest shooter in NBA history; how can he have a great FGbase than Bird? I'd drop him to maybe 95, 93 - he gets a bonus for being probably the greatest pure scorer ever, but a lot of that skill is accounted for in his quickness, jumping etc. Then inside scoring of 92 seems excessive for a guard - the next highest for SF/SG is Gervin with 86. Something like that would probably be appropriate. I bet dropping those two ratings would make him a nice 95/96 overall, settling him in at the top about even with the top 5 all time, where he belongs.

Actually, that would still leave him about 99 overall. Like I said, the overall ratings are calculated differently these days, they end up much higher than they used to.

[mchakko]

Really? How are they calculated now?

[Andrew]

I don't think there's any weightings on the ratings depending on positions anymore. Back in NBA Live 2001, a low stealing rating for a centre wouldn't take away from his overall rating as much as it does now.

[ShivaSquad]

I don't think so either. I'm pretty sure that every 5 points affects 1 overall point. So for example if you move MJ from 99 FG to 95 his overall will not be affected. If he goes to 94 FG he will move down 1 overall rating point.

[Matthew]

I look at Jordan vs Bird as a good comparison.

Bird - better shooter, passer, rebounder
Jordan - better pure scorer, better defender.

pretty equal. winning: bird 3 championships in the 80's, jordan 6 in the watered down 90's...pretty equal.

Wilt a ballhog? Centers as ballhogs doesn't even make sense, centers aren't supposed to be playmakers...

the Bulls were so unstoppable largely because of their defense for the last 3 championships. They weren't even a really good offensive team at that point. Their biggest strength was the length and defense of Jordan, Pippen, and Harper. Pippen was enough to lock down a PG with his size, and Jordan/Harper were big enough to pick up a SF. And honestly they never would have gotten past the Pacers without Kukoc getting super hot. Jordan definitely was a complete leader around 91-93, and at that time he put up stats that were comparable to Bird, Oscar Robertson at their peak (and what LeBron is approaching...) around 30/7/7, that's about the peak the NBA has ever seen for a non-center; sounds like a rating of 95. When LeBron James Jr. or somebody comes around in 2030 and averages 30 pts, 15 reb, 10 assists, maybe they can get a 99 or 100 rating; for now a 99 rating only seems appropriate for that 7 foot 5 point guard with perfect ratings that's fun (for about 5 minutes) to create-a-player and dominate the game. no one has ever stood out from the rest of the league like that, not even jordan

You have no idea.
6 championships to 3 is not equal. Larry Bird was a better shooter, jordan a better jumpshooter. The difference is a jumpshooter is so much harder to contain. Jordan could do it all. Post up. Distribute the ball. Shoot. Slash. Get to the line. His level of completeness is the reason he is rated above Magic, Wilt and your boy bird.

Lebron is no where near what Jordan or the past legends have done. One day he probably will, but right now he isnt doing anything more than what Penny was doing in his prime.

And as for the pacers series, I suggest you review game 4 of that series. The Pacers should have never been given that possesion that Miller hit for 3. The series , if we are going by "ifs", should have been over in 5.

[Metsis]

The question about who's a ball hog and who isn't really isn't a big thing... All, and I mean ALL the great players of the game have been ball hogs! They get the great stats because they control the ball, get the shots etc. What separates these hogs from each other is the mental toughness. Jordan was exceptionally cool with the last second shots and was exceptionally great with his all around game, but he was a ball hog when he needed to be... That's a a sign of a great player... He knows what he has to do and he knows he can do it and knows that it's his frikkin JOB to be the ball hog when no one else has the stomach to make the final decision...

Bird, MJ, Oscar, Wilt, Russell... Their job was to make their team win... And it usually includes taking 20+ shots per game and getting 25+ points off of them... When this guy fails in his job, the team usually falls with him. It's a place of great honor and great pressure. When you know that everything is on your shoulders... It is no longer a question about who has better skill or who is the greatest shooter or what ever... It's how you handle the pressure and expectations from the coaches, owners, managers and fans... It is not a light load and many have fallen under it. But those guys like MJ, Bird, Magic etc. have been able to handle that pressure... Ofcourse having multiple guys handling this load makes it a lot easier than being faced with it all by yourself...

MJ deserves the 99 overall... He has been the single most dominating force of his era... LeBron's era is coming, but he has to mature mentally to get as good as the great players of the past. He seems to be well ahead of that bunch and barring some horrifying injury scenario he will get there... He could use a "Pippen" at his side to take off some of the load from him, but he seems to be handling the pressure very well for a 20 year old kid...

Kobe, KG, JO and other good high school stand outs took their time to grow into their role, but the role of a franchise saviour was put on LeBron even before the draft and he managed to come out on top... We could be witnessing the birth of the single most dominant player ever or atleast a player who will make an impact in every game just like Magic, MJ, Bird etc. LeBron is good right now, but he's still got a lot of growing to do to be great. The skills are definitely there... No matter how much you want to hate this prodigal boy, you have to admit that the boys got skill. I really doubted his success in the NBA, but he erased those doubts fast...

Remember that even Michael Jordan had no pressure when he entered the league... Rod Thorn said that Jordan's good, but Jordan ain't that good and he would have wanted a big guy instead. So that equalled to no pressure from the management at the start. LeBron had more pressure while he was still playing high school ball like over a year before he even got drafted.

Michael Jordan has earned his 99 field goals and 99 overall... There's no question about it... We'll just have to see what will LeBron earn in his career and how it will compare to what MJ has earned.

[mchakko]

haha.

I'm sure the 90's looked like a golden age if you were in elementary school at the time. Keep thinking that beating chokers like Malone and Ewing a few times is comparable to beating the 80's lakers and sixers. The Don Nelson era Bucks could've probably won 6 titles in the 90's.

Jumpshooting isn't too hard if they call a foul every time someone tries to defend you...

Despite having phantom fouls erase most of his misses, Jordan shot .427 in the '98 finals...he did a fair Antoine Walker on a bad night impression that series and still got the MVP. I don't think Jordan was that clutch either - the final shot in '98 was great, but for the most part, if you take enough clutch shots you'll make some of them - just like Kobe, Jordan put up his share of bricks at the buzzer (or airballs in Kobe's case.) I remember, I believe it was the end of game 6 in '98, Jordan tried to go 1 on 3, tripped over his own feet, and came up whining for a a foul when time expired.


Seriously, y'all have some idol worship issues if you can't admit that other players might be comparable to your hero. You ever seen Wilt play? I never did, but I know no one else ever scored 100 pts, and that he also led the league in assists one year...I'm not arrogant enough to say someone today is clearly better than him. I still wonder what Shaq vs Wilt would be like.

Here's hoping LeBron surpasses everyone. He's got Jordan skill and athleticism with Magic/Bird's unselfishness, he could be everything that MJ could've been. It's gonna be wild if we have to rate him a 105 though in nba live 2010, when Jordan is still a 99.

good night all. my old crotchety self is through arguing

[Matthew]

I'm sure the 90's looked like a golden age if you were in elementary school at the time. Keep thinking that beating chokers like Malone and Ewing a few times is comparable to beating the 80's lakers and sixers. The Don Nelson era Bucks could've probably won 6 titles in the 90's.

Malone was not a choker. Ewing was one of the top 10 centres of all time. Just becuase MJ made them look like chumps doesnt mean they actually were.

Jumpshooting isn't too hard if they call a foul every time someone tries to defend you...

Maybe if they didnt foul him they wouldnt call a foul? Do you expect the refs to give them leeway becuase they are defending jordan?

Despite having phantom fouls erase most of his misses, Jordan shot .427 in the '98 finals...he did a fair Antoine Walker on a bad night impression that series and still got the MVP.

Shooting for that series was horrendous, mainly becuase of the illigal defense that was being played on both sides of the ball.

I don't think Jordan was that clutch either - the final shot in '98 was great, but for the most part, if you take enough clutch shots you'll make some of them -

Reggie missed big shots, same with bird, same with magic, jerry west. they all missed shots. to put things into perspective though : jordan hit more game winning shots when he was 39 (3) than shaq has his enitre career.

I remember, I believe it was the end of game 6 in '98, Jordan tried to go 1 on 3, tripped over his own feet, and came up whining for a a foul when time expired.

Your memory is failing you. He drove against Derrick Mckey and mckey, although inadvertantly, tripped him. it wasnt one on 3, and the pacers had many calls in that series that shouldnt have gone their way.

Seriously, y'all have some idol worship issues if you can't admit that other players might be comparable to your hero. You ever seen Wilt play? I never did, but I know no one else ever scored 100 pts, and that he also led the league in assists one year...I'm not arrogant enough to say someone today is clearly better than him. I still wonder what Shaq vs Wilt would be like.

Actually, yes, ive seen some of his games. He looks like a david robinson, and against bill russel he didnt do anything worthy of the praise he gets. sure he scored 100 points, but how many people take 63 shots in one fucking game. SIXTY THREE!
Wilt only gets this recognition becuase he is dead. It may sound harsh, but it is true.

[Indy]

fred jones from indiana is underated because he can't dribble at all. of course my boi wade is underated. i really don't think anyone is severly overrated at all.

thats for sure, plus he cant shoot the three in this game at ALL! i got so pissed of with the fred jones i created my own more realistic freddie j.

[fgrep15]

Why didn't you just edit the one they had there

[Colin]

I just updated the ratings in Andrew's most-recent roster (by making a list of the players with high or low ovrl's that I didn't agree with, then looking at them in edit player.) and these are the guys I got. Some of these are probably biased and personal opinions but...

Overrated:
Antonio Davis
Jiri Welsch
Darrell Armstrong
Troy Murphy
Fred Jones
Kerry Kittles
Chris Kaman
Deaven George
Brian Grant
Christian Laettner
Steve Smith
Sam Cassell
Michael Olowokandi
Ron Mercer
Cliff Robinson
Malik Rose
Jerome Williams
Penny Hardaway
Douh Christie
Tony Battie
Ruben Patterson
Nick Van Exel
Eddie House
Robert Horry
Brent Barry
Raja Bell
Carlos Boozer
Gordan Giricek

Underrated:
Brian Scalabrine
Trevor Ariza
Zarko Cabarkapa

And these are Andrew's current uninjured rosters remember. So that's why all those rookies aren't on there.