Andrew wrote:You could be right there. Unfortunately, I'd say there are some teething problems this year.
Andrew wrote:The issues with clipping and physics do surprise me. That's not to say it's easy to achieve perfection or anything, but it feels like its actually regressed on this generation, despite having better tech to work with. It's surprising for a series that has shown a lot of improvement and innovation over the past decade.
When it comes to the motion system, it feels like it was implemented a year early, before all the kinks were worked out. It's been done to improve the responsiveness and eliminate that feeling of running in mud that's been in previous NBA 2K games, which is a good idea. As noted above though, it's gone too far in the other direction to where it's a bit loose, and players end up skating.
Quote from Da_Czar Video:
"The [inaudible] he thinks, ugh, they think, that the next big jump for AI will be the ability for it to recognize the other players strengths and weaknesses and not get in each others way while running. Uh, yeah, actually, those are like two different things. Our AI is smart enough to recognize the others person's ability, but the thing is that, right, now, we just put in that new Motion System, right. And it is in motion right now--It doesn't know how to handle these different situations of Avoidance, right, and Avoidance System is a completely different system than the Motion System, but it needs to work with it. And, ugh, that's not simple stuff to code. Right. So, conceptually you are right, that is the next level. Our AI can handle it. It's the rest of the systems in the game, can they handle it? Can they give us the movement we need once the AI recognizes that oh, yo, this guys at this, this is what he is gonna do, like, we can deduce that information. But, can we feed that to the motion system in time for it to make another decision to feed that into the Off-ball Collision System or the Avoidance System, and then once it comes out of that, it hands it back to the AI...."
Dee4Three wrote:Bongo, that doesnt make any sense.
The skating is absolutely a step backwards, just because someone implements a new gameplay direction doesn't mean they are somehow forgiven in the early stages even though they released a FINISHED PRODUCT that garnered the company billions. The shooting with the new motion system also feels flimsy and off, the one of one defense is a giant step backwards and needs to be fixed in 2K19. The ball physics/shot physics around the rim also are a step backwards from 2K17.
Dee4Three wrote:Like an overabundance of oversized heads in the league, that was a created problem and a step backwards.
Dee4Three wrote:they released a FINISHED PRODUCT that garnered the company billions. It's called the game was released with all these issues, and people paid the same amount or more this year than they did last year. 2K is asking for more and more money out of the people, while giving them a product that has an over the top amount of gameplay issues as well as graphical problems.
Consumers are spending millions of dollars in total on these games, I've pointed to the metacritic user score compared to the reviewer score. Clearly a large portion of the population thinks that they didn't get there money's worth with this game, and the majority of the people I see commenting about the game feels that 2K is greedy, and that rushed the release of this product while trying to get more money out of the consumer.
Dee4Three wrote:So because NBA Live decided to start a new development cycle (change gameplay direction) after Live 2010, the games since are not steps back, but years of gameplay testing/improvements with the an ultimate goal of a better product? No... NBA Lives gameplay was a major step back after 2010, the changes made and the focus were not on the right areas.
Gameplay enjoyment is subjective, but when the majority of a population coniders all of it or most of it crap, what happened to NBA live happens.
Dee4Three wrote:game feels that 2K is greedy, and that rushed the release of this product while trying to get more money out of the consumer.
Dee4Three wrote:Bongo, that doesnt make any sense.
So because NBA Live decided to start a new development cycle (change gameplay direction) after Live 2010, the games since are not steps back, but years of gameplay testing/improvements with the an ultimate goal of a better product? No... NBA Lives gameplay was a major step back after 2010, the changes made and the focus were not on the right areas. That is clearly a step back, by stating that they are starting a new development cycle and are focused on other things so it can't be a step back, doesn't make any sense at all.
Consumer feedback is the ultimate feedback, I enjoy live 18 more than 2K18,
Dee4Three wrote:Live didn't recover yet, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying I don't want 2k to continue down the wrong path. I enjoy Live MORE than 2K this year, but they still havn't recovered the gameplay, and I barely played Live 18. Live still isn't even close to taking enough Market Share to actually compete, they are still in major recovery.
Dee4Three wrote:That is clearly a step back, by stating that they are starting a new development cycle and are focused on other things so it can't be a step back, doesn't make any sense at all.
Dee4Three wrote:Bongo, I don't care what it says in the dev blog.
Dee4Three wrote:With all due respect (I think you are a great guy btw) your talking in circles defending them but without actually saying anything.
Dee4Three wrote: Your comment about Lives 8 year development cycle shows that. My point makes sense, live started down the wrong path with a new dev cycle, and look what happened? They took STEPS BACKWARDS. That is the point Bongo.
Dee4Three wrote:Consumers deserve a more polished product in 2018, the gameplay and the art is simply all over the place.
Dee4Three wrote:They increased the demand for VC so they could take more money from the consumer, and at the same time implementing silly gameplay additions, and creating more gameplay issues and art issues. They don't get applauded for that result Bongo.
Dee4Three wrote:With all due respect (I think you are a great guy btw)
bongo88 wrote:To say the have problems is true. But it is not a "step back" in any direciton, it is just a focus on other aspects of their game, and those implementations are just alpha/beta builds.
this is what you said about LIVE. if you wanted to say live development cycle never recovered.... then say live development cycle never recovered.
for instance, anytime the movement is adjusted they have to hand- implement all plays again. there is not auto adjust or auto fix button.
Yes, a new development cycle can be steps backwards. or it can be steps forward.
But it is rather dramatic to claim that they are moving in the wrong direction when 1) this is an alpha build... the motion and avoidance system don't even interect well and 2) we have no idea what the cohesive system is going to be like when it is all finished. we have a slightly working motion system, and an excellent AI Framework that took 3 years to develop, in my opinion (2k14-2k17) combined with other aspects that are very very under-developed.
Consumers are just that ---- consumers. If people do not like the product, they will not consume.
Dee4Three wrote:bongo88 wrote:To say the have problems is true. But it is not a "step back" in any direciton, it is just a focus on other aspects of their game, and those implementations are just alpha/beta builds.
You DID say that it was not a step back in any direction, that is you who said that. That isn't twisting your words Bongo, those are your exact words.
Dee4Three wrote:It was also never debated that this wasn't a new development cycle, I said they are going down the wrong path. And, 2K18 feels like a very poor release
In regards to metacritic, yes it's a small sample.Yes, a new development cycle can be steps backwards. or it can be steps forward.
I know, like I said above.... This was a step backwards.
Dee4Three wrote:In regards to metacritic, yes it's a small sample. But it still shows a disconnect from the reviews and the consumers. Also, have you looked at the consumer reviews on Steam? its horrible.
Dee4Three wrote:bongo88 wrote:Consumers are just that ---- consumers. If people do not like the product, they will not consume.
This comment is pointless in a gameplay/game critique section. It's also blatantly obvious. My point was: Look what happened to Live. My point about consumer feedback is vital in ensuring 2K stays at the top. All it takes is one down year, and another companies up year to make the tides turn. Consumers are everything, we are what keeps these games coming out.
We can agree to disagree here about the gameplay direction and how we view it, im cool with that. While supremely disappointed in 2K18 and the direction they went, I am looking forward to Live 19 AND what 2K19 can improve upon.
bongo88 wrote:if you have a console, best thing to do is rent both from redbox and see which you like best. Steam has a 2 hour refund window so that you could try both.
Some people prefer 2k17 for a variety of reasons. Other people prefer 2k18 for a variety of reasons.
bongo88 wrote:Whether a person finds any game enjoyable (basketball, football, rpg, moba, etc etc) is completely subjective. Best thing for this person to do is try a bunch of the 2k basketball games and find which one is most enjoyable to him/her.
Andrew wrote:The term "teething problems" is indeed an analogy based on children teething.
It's worth noting that NBA Live has not had an eight year development cycle. Our interviews with Sean O'Brien have gone into more detail about that, but there were lots of changes in direction, overhauling of the team a couple of times following the cancellation of NBA Elite 11, and starting over again, which has further contributed to its setbacks. But that's a discussion for elsewhere and another time.
Problems encountered during the initial part of a process. Likened to the discomfort experienced by babies when they are getting their first teeth (i.e. when they are "teething").
Andrew wrote:This explanation is pretty straightforward, so I'll just borrow it:Problems encountered during the initial part of a process. Likened to the discomfort experienced by babies when they are getting their first teeth (i.e. when they are "teething").
bongo88 wrote:Again, that is your opinion. which is fine. no problem with that. But for you to say that it is a step backwards makes you a prophet or very opinionated. To accuratly describe this as a step backwards would require technical knowledge of the games systems as well was knowledge of the future projects and goals
Definition of prophet
1 : one who utters divinely inspired revelations: such as
a often capitalized : the writer of one of the prophetic books of the Bible
b capitalized : one regarded by a group of followers as the final authoritative revealer of God's will ·Muhammad, the Prophet of Allah
2 : one gifted with more than ordinary spiritual and moral insight; especially : an inspired poet
3 : one who foretells future events : predictor
4 : an effective or leading spokesman for a cause, doctrine, or group
5 Christian Science
a : a spiritual seer
b : disappearance of material sense before the conscious facts of spiritual Truth
Again, this is a new development cycle. there wouldn't be 2k18 if they did not do yearly releases. because the game is obviously not finished.
Dee4Three wrote:I CAN state that it's a step back, and I can give all of my reasons again.....Nobody asked for those silly, unrealistic implementations, not one person.
Dee4Three wrote:NBA 2K17 was a completely finished product, a polished product. 2K18 was released as a finished product, though not finished and all sort of out of whack (even you are stating that the devs are admitting this, that the motion system is out of whack).
Dee4Three wrote:I only play offline, and I prefer NBA 2K17 ten fold. While yes, brick wall defense is a little much, and the game is not without its issues (too many body steal/body blocks, questionable defense by the CPU at times) it has far less gameplay issues than 2K18.
Dee4Three wrote:NBA 2K17 was a completely finished product, a polished product. 2K18 was released as a finished product, though not finished and all sort of out of whack (even you are stating that the devs are admitting this, that the motion system is out of whack).
Dee4Three wrote:Exactly, so heres the truth. NBA 2K17 was a completely finished product, a polished product. 2K18 was released as a finished product, though not finished and all sort of out of whack (even you are stating that the devs are admitting this, that the motion system is out of whack)....
So we have a fleshed out, clean 2K17, and a WIP 2K18 that was released.
bongo88 wrote:Perhaps gamers shouldn't pre-order. Perhaps they should try a game before purchasing. Perhaps they should be a knowledgable consumer base.
Dee4Three wrote:
So we have a fleshed out, clean 2K17, and a WIP 2K18 that was released. That's what created the gameplay of 2K18 being a step backwards from 2K17, Bongo. you are basically saying that the gameplay took a step back from 2K17 because they are experimenting with a new system (dev cycle).
PeacemanNOT wrote:I think you guys look into this way too much.
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