The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Talk about NBA 2K18 here.

Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby PeacemanNOT on Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:41 am

StyxTx wrote:
Dee4Three wrote:
This game Is getting MURDERED on Steam reviews.


Which means 2k will probably pull the plug on any future PC version.

I wouldn't even be surprised to be honest.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby Andrew on Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:44 am

The user reviews for PS4 and X1 aren't much better, though. The question is, will the message get through, or will they keep pointing to the "professional" reviews (which have admittedly been scoring the game a little lower this year as well, though nowhere near as much)?
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby jwin on Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:27 pm

dee, here is a clip where the defender teodosic cuts off my attempt to get by him with fultz, while what you are saying is true and does occur for me as well, in my experience the cpu actually does sometimes cut that drive off, and others i can blow by it, but i can't do it every time like you do, maybe 2k can do something about this

http://plays.tv/video/59f3f6b7d53c8280bd/hip-riding
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby Dee4Three on Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:13 pm

You didn't get shut off, you weren't running in a straight line, it looks like you started in a running motion attempting to go around (running sideways) but not in a straight line.

You would have gotten by him 100% if you had called an iso where you caught the ball, and just ran forward. If you watch my videos, I am doing that and getting by them 100% of the time.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby sticky-fingers on Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:24 pm

Dee4Three wrote:But all of those people have vanished...


Perhaps they vanished just because this thread goes in circles while they just play the game.

While you complain about 2K18, you tried to fix 2K17 with old update and sliders, which you achieve partially. But why not staying on 2K15 which is better in my opinion in terms of gameplay ?

About ACE : it seems that it isnt activated for CPU.
So start a new quick game, change side, activate it on CPU side and change help defense at 100.
Then switch back to your side. It fix partially easy drive Dee'SO system, CPU center will help more often.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby diamenz on Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:11 pm

I didn't vanish, I said my piece and i'm done. if you're frustrated with 2k18, play 17. my job isn't to convince u otherwise.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby Dee4Three on Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:28 am

I could have left the vanished comment out, so I apologize for that.

It's not going in circles, it's continuing to harp on the issue and being examples to light that show how bad it is.

And I have tried basically any slider set, including the most extreme. Stop acting like I am not attempting to fix or curve it. Christ, I've made 4 videos with different sliders which take awhile to make. It's a gameplay mechanic issue that can't be curved or fixed reasonably.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby fjccommish on Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:00 am

I keep hoping to read that this game breaking issue is fixed.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby sticky-fingers on Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:47 am

This thread was about defensive problem / easy drive / useless sliders.
And for me, you mostly convinced me on this points.

I write mostly because easy drives happen in NBA (but never in 2K16/17 vs HoF CPU) :

phpBB [video]


Not only MVP candidates, but even Joe Ingles ;) :

phpBB [video]


phpBB [video]


And even vs Kawhi ;) :
phpBB [video]


Now, you talk about VC (related to all NBA2K on next gen, apotheosis this year), dead atmosphear (mostly the same than 2K15), awful 3D models (not new) etc...
All kind of flaws that 2K should fix, but add year after year.
While i'm agree on theses points (and you can check my old wishlists), this is not new, and not related to the subject.

You can be frustrated about 2K18 for the reasons you explain, but you have to be more objective IMO because if all is about gameplay, then we shouldnt talk about 2K16/17/18.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby Dee4Three on Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:08 am

Stickey, the issues that I have discussed are black and white.

And the other issues I brought up go along with the defense, it shows 2ks lack of understanding of the real game of basketball, and the creation of problems. It's absolutely relevant in here. Want me to create a different thread for every problem I discuss? I'm keeping a lot of it in here because it still goes with the overall quality of the game.

I brought up the lighting in 2K15 being really poor and unrealistic. The difference is with 2k17, I can get by the CPU with the right player and the right move, players differentiate from eachother with those abilities to get by the guy. I don't have to say again how NBA 2K17 had its issues, I've mentioned them many times, including being bumped into staggering motions.

It's not objectable on the offensive issues I am discussing. Literally black and white, it's on my videos with jacked up slider sets as well. It's a major problem and a gamebreaker for me. Just like players all blending in together on the court. It's a gamebreaker. That issue alone would make me never want to play this game. Combine that with all the other issues, and this game is very, very poor.

It's not only getting killed because or VC, people are also complaining about aspects of the gameplay like constant missed layups by NBA players, and the skating. This thread is to bring to light the indisputable issue of the game being a very flawed arcade game masquerading as a sim, and to draw attention to NBA 2K's team that does not have the ability to put out a realistic basketball game in 2017. The fact that it gets a 8.8 on metacritic because of mostly paid reviewers, and a 3.0 by users who actually play the game. The same on Steam where the user reviews are like 98% negative.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby skoadam on Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:54 am

sticky-fingers, you are just wrong dude and to be honest, whenever i read your post it sounds like trolling.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby sticky-fingers on Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:04 am

skoadam wrote:sticky-fingers, you are just wrong dude and to be honest, whenever i read your post it sounds like trolling.


When I suggest to activate CPU ACE and help defense, is it trolling ? Have you tried ?

BTW skoadam, your great work for this community doesnt allow you to come here to bash me, even more without any argument.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby Dee4Three on Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:18 am

I appreciate the suggestions, and I've uploaded videos with your suggestions and others.

Btw, I will do that and see what happens. Maybe I'll even upload ANOTHER video.

Sko, I feel like some of it has to be trolling sometimes, but Stickey is trying to figure out a fix, which Isn't a bad thing.

I will try it. But jesus, there's a reason this thread exists. I took my work vacation for the year when 2K18 came out, I was so excited. I'm as disappointed as anybody.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby StyxTx on Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:16 am

Dee4Three wrote:The fact that it gets a 8.8 on metacritic because of mostly paid reviewers, and a 3.0 by users who actually play the game. The same on Steam where the user reviews are like 98% negative.


It's more like 75% negative, but still, that is pretty bad. :)

I've even read some positive reviews from people who say they have no problem with the VC situation. Those people lose any credibility in my eyes as soon as I read that. Something just doesn't seem right about that. Maybe a 2k employee. Who knows.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby sticky-fingers on Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:10 pm

StyxTx wrote:I've even read some positive reviews from people who say they have no problem with the VC situation. Those people lose any credibility in my eyes as soon as I read that. Something just doesn't seem right about that. Maybe a 2k employee. Who knows.

If you only play quick games and my league, which is my case, you really dont care about VC because you dont have to use it.
And i really dont care about others game modes. I just want to play old schoold Bball game 5vs5, human vs human/CPU.
So at this point, 2K18 doesnt desserve a 3.0 nor a 8.8. And I'm not a 2K employee.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby StyxTx on Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:52 pm

sticky-fingers wrote:
StyxTx wrote:I've even read some positive reviews from people who say they have no problem with the VC situation. Those people lose any credibility in my eyes as soon as I read that. Something just doesn't seem right about that. Maybe a 2k employee. Who knows.

If you only play quick games and my league, which is my case, you really dont care about VC because you dont have to use it.
And i really dont care about others game modes. I just want to play old schoold Bball game 5vs5, human vs human/CPU.
So at this point, 2K18 doesnt desserve a 3.0 nor a 8.8. And I'm not a 2K employee.


This is what he said.

"The VC situation doesn't bother me directly because I had no interest in my career - but after playing I learned that even in regular games they drag out how long they take so that you can't earn VC as quickly."

So it seems he does play modes that require VC. He kinda contradicts himself in that one sentence. I don't know what other modes require VC because I never played anything other than career.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby StyxTx on Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:56 pm

I love this guy's take because it's probably true. :lol:

"I'm convinced that if I turned up to 2k's headquarters with a gunshot wound and told them to call me an ambulance they'd ask me to pay VC first."
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby sticky-fingers on Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:14 am

StyxTx wrote:but after playing I learned that even in regular games they drag out how long they take so that you can't earn VC as quickly."

So it seems he does play modes that require VC.

Both sentences are wrong for Quick Play and MyLeague.
And in 2K18, I dont have 2K's advert for MyTeam that happened sometimes in 2K17.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby Dee4Three on Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:31 am

The bottom line, if you think about things globally and care how it impacts the population, it doesn't matter if VC impacts you directly in game. I never need VC in 2K because I don't play those modes, but I care A LOT about the issue for many reasons.

1. In the state of the economy today, where the middle and lower class are so highly disregarded, and income has never caught up to inflation, $60 for a game is enough. To prey on children is also preying on parents, because children who don't have that money will be begging parents in order to give them money for VC, and many parents will play along. Children will use savings or whatever other means to get more VC so they can compete, or get a damn haircut, or an accessory, etc.

2. Even if a person bought the $150 version of the game (yes, $150 for a video game) the 200k VC still doesn't go as far as you would think. That's right, even the $150 version of the game has people begging for VC.

3. It's not like the system rewards you when you do put that money in. In regards to haircuts, if you want to change it to a different one, you lose the one you bought and have to buy it again if you want it back. That's like me buying NBA 2K17, and after buying NBA 2K18 2K rips it out of my Steam inventory and says "welp, you bought the new game so we will be taking 2K17 out of your inventory, if you want to play it again you will have to buy it back". It's insane.

In 2K17, the VC grab was bad, and people complained about it. But this year from what I see, they took it to a whole new level. It really is preying on our youth, and pressuring our parents. No other way to look at it. They grind out the game intentionally to pressure human beings to shell out money in order to be a good enough player so they are able to stay socially active and confident in the game.

I care about this issue in a big way, I hate the "if you don't like it, don't play it" "just go play live" garbage. We are human beings, and if you care about other human beings, if you care about others being taken advantage of (which I hope all of you do) the issue impacts you no matter what. It's parasitic people who prey on others who enforce something like this.

That, to go along with the complete disconnect from real basketball (gameplay and atmosphere wise), make this title an embarrassment in my opinion.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby sticky-fingers on Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:55 am

The fact is, when i play 2K18 - the way i play it, not the way that 2K want I play - i'm not disturbed at all by this VC shit.
I really dont care about other modes.

So the rest is pure philosophy.
VC system is worst this year, fact.
But if you think globally, you dont buy any AAA games with microtransactions because this method stinks as you describe it well.
That's the reason why I had no scruples to buy 2K18 on (dark) grey market.

2K should release 2 games.
MyVCmode as a free to play, and NBA2K as a bball game.
Problem is that today, i'm sure that most of players play MyVCShittyModes :roll:
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby Dee4Three on Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:04 am

sticky-fingers wrote:The fact is, when i play 2K18 - the way i play it, not the way that 2K want I play - i'm not disturbed at all by this VC shit.
I really dont care about other modes.

So the rest is pure philosophy.
VC system is worst this year, fact.
But if you think globally, you dont buy any AAA games with microtransactions because this method stinks as you describe it well.
That's the reason why I had no scruples to buy 2K18 on (dark) grey market.

2K should release 2 games.
MyVCmode as a free to play, and NBA2K as a bball game.
Problem is that today, i'm sure that most of players play MyVCShittyModes :roll:


So, because it doesn't impact you directly you are not disturbed? Even buying it on the grey market you are supporting the product. That's what I'm getting at. As in, you are not heavily concerned about 2Ks approach to prey on kids and adults alike?

You don't consider the business practices of a company you support a very important matter? This is what I am getting at. You don't think this sets a horrible example for other gaming titles as well? And, it sets a greedy example to our youth.

That's not me putting words in your mouth, or attempting to, but do you see where I am coming from?

Big picture, everybody should care about it. I care deeply that a company would get almost a 9 by reviewers, but the consumers who buy the product don't even give it a 4. That's the ultimate in video game politics, it's the ultimate example of a disconnect with the consumers, the consumers keep the company in business. Without the consumers, 2K doesn't exist.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby StyxTx on Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:13 am

sticky-fingers wrote:The fact is, when i play 2K18 - the way i play it, not the way that 2K want I play - i'm not disturbed at all by this VC shit.
I really dont care about other modes.

So the rest is pure philosophy.
VC system is worst this year, fact.
But if you think globally, you dont buy any AAA games with microtransactions because this method stinks as you describe it well.
That's the reason why I had no scruples to buy 2K18 on (dark) grey market.

2K should release 2 games.
MyVCmode as a free to play, and NBA2K as a bball game.
Problem is that today, i'm sure that most of players play MyVCShittyModes :roll:


I care about VC crap even though I didn't even buy 2k18. I despise ANY company that takes advantage of people, period. Each year they are taking more and more advantage of people. Yes, you can put a lot of the blame on the people who continue to buy the VC, but it isn't exactly kosher for a company to intentionally set out to take advantage of those people by putting more and more behind the VC wall. This is why I have no respect left for 2k basketball and it bleeds over because I will not buy ANY 2k game because of their predatory ways.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby sticky-fingers on Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:29 am

Dee4Three wrote:You don't consider the business practices of a company you support a very important matter?


That's what i said, philosophy...
If you really care about this great idea, about customers, about children, if "you think globally", then you never buy anything produced by children, by third world countries, you never buy any "american" or "european" manufactured things, including computers, clothes, shoes...
"Big picture", Welcome to the Real World, dude.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby Dee4Three on Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:46 am

We can not like aspects of things, but buy and still make our voices heard. That's the point of feedback. That is what I am getting at.

I bought the game, but I don't support the direction of the company. I am making it known that I don't support that direction.

By the way, don't act like you know me. You have no idea the hell I have been through in my life, don't "welcome to the real world" me, I am very aware of my surroundings and how horrible and unjust people and corporations can be.

I will say again... consumer feedback is the ultimate feeback, it should be everything for a company. The VC approach is disturbing and should be brought to light (which a lot of people are doing).

Don't make the issue seem smaller because other corporations do equal or worse. It is still a big issue.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby bongo88 on Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:36 am

surprised this tread is still going on. anyways,

found this thread interesting at os.
https://forums.operationsports.com/foru ... st-me.html

i found that i have naturally played with both sticks on defense... probably some habit i picked up from the older 2k games i been playing. anyways, i watching this thread because if it proves to be effective, then it means 2k simply balanced gameplay for human vs human and gave human vs cpu a shorter end of the stick. which kinda makes sense given all the esport rumors and such that i heard earlier.

does this help with human vs cpu blow by? nope. unless 2k apply a patch where elite defenders utulize the right stick properly on defense. 2k has gone less and less properly programming cpu interaction (the rotations and badges alone i had to fix were ridiculous) but i do like they gave me options to fix stuff.

anyways, about vc... most companies are headed that direction because of gaming "whales"

http://store.steampowered.com/curator/30654888/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-A3fm_9qFQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U (this video was back in 2014 and was a great forecast of future gaming state)

i personally blame the mobile market. once mobile gaming hit the masses, then developers found out how to extract excess money through microtransactions and loot boxes. it is probably a similar trigger comparable to casino gambling.

anyways, the big aaa publishers know the numbers and recent aaa games have loot boxes. it seems to be working because more games have included them. it's the future of gaming. maybe in a decade or so there wont be any big budget, single player games.... due to those "whales". golly, bethesda's released skyrim like 18 times allready, just to extract more money from the general populace. And valve hasn't made a game in forever, simply updates tf2/csgo boxes, skins.

anyways, dunno if you wander around OS, but the cover a variety of topics.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby sticky-fingers on Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:07 am

bongo88 wrote:bongo88
Dee4Three wrote:consumer feedback is the ultimate feeback, it should be everything for a company.

Consumer feedback isn't the ultimate feedback. It should, but ultimate feedback are stock prices.
So you and me buy the game, we support de facto the direction of 2K.

Dee4Three wrote:By the way, don't act like you know me. You have no idea the hell I have been through in my life, don't "welcome to the real world" me, I am very aware of my surroundings and how horrible and unjust people and corporations can be.

I never pretend to know you or your life.
When i take your arguments, in a "bigger picture", you overreact that way :roll:
it's pretty hard to debate with someone whose reasoning is limited to "black or white", with no open mind.
So I will limit my interactions with you.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby LeGod on Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:06 am

I probably shouldn't jump in on this thread, but I just couldn't resist sharing my thoughts lmao.

Anyway, seriously, 2K18 feels to me in most ways except that the CPU defenders do not understand how to GIVE ROOM FOR THE DRIVE AND BACK OFF. Ever single CPU defender almost always plays up on you, denying the jumpshot or forcing a dribble pick-up. As a consequence of this, we end up EASILY DRIVING PAST CPU DEFENDERS because they REFUSE TO BACK OFF.

I honestly think 2K should retune their defensive logic so that it becomes GIVE THE MID-RANGE JUMPSHOT OVER AN EASY LAYUP/PAINT BASKET. Right now, 2K CPU's defensive logic is PLAY UP ON THE DEFENDER AND TIGHTLY CONTEST EVERY JUMPER, AND PRAY THAT YOU DON'T GET BLOWN BY.

Either way, when the CPU drives on me, attacking the basket, I ALWAYS BACK OFF AND TRY TO CUT THEM OFF OR MEET THEM AT THE BASKET FOR A CONTEST.

But when I drive on the CPU, the CPU REFUSES TO GIVE ME SPACE SO I END UP DRIVING RIGHT PAST HIM USING ANIMATIONS. The CPU should GIVE ME SPACE FOR A PULL-UP JUMPER so that they can CONTEST AT THE RIM WITHOUT RELYING ON 2K'S BOTCHED ROTATIONS.

This is a core issue in 2K's defensive philosophy. 2K has always prioritized making CPU defense SUFFOCATING AT FACE VALUE by playing tight man-to-man defense instead of PLAYING BENEFICIAL TEAM DEFENSE BY PREVENTING A BLOW-BY (because a blow-by essentially means 4v5 unless you recover).

Have y'all ever wondered why, in 2K, the way to beat high-level CPU is always ATTACK THE PAINT, SHOOT FREE THROWS OR GET LAYUPS/DUNKS, BEING EFFICIENT? 2K, as a game, does not promote jumpshooting.

2K'S CPU INHERENTLY GIVES UP THE BLOW-BY IN FAVOR OF PREVENTING A MID-RANGE JUMPSHOT, which is so damn FLAWED.

Combine the blow-by and dribble penetration with bad CPU defensive rotations, you end up easy offense against a self-destructive and trash CPU defense.

ALL I WANT FROM 2K IS TO CODE THEIR CPU DEFENSE SO THAT THEY LEARN TO BACK OFF AND TEMPT US INTO SHOOTING JUMPERS, WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY GIVING THE CPU A CHANCE TO CONTEST/DEFEND AT THE RIM WITHOUT BEING BLOWN-BY. ROTATIONS WOULD BE SO MUCH BETTER BECAUSE THE CPU WOULDN'T BE PLAYING 4V5 IF NONE OF THE CPU DEFENDERS GET BLOWN BY.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby dare on Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:34 am

LeGod, That's some good post. Is there anyone tried to change the defensive settings for the CPU, maybe to sag off a little bit instead of playing close and tight. I'm not expert on the sliders and all but there must be someway to at least fix this issue even by a little.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby diamenz on Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:32 pm

right on, legod. I get played tight by the cpu 80% of the time, it's just ridic. ive stress tested ace by driving baseline and dunk cheesing the cpu play afyeter play and they refuse to adjust and gap me.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby Dee4Three on Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:23 am

sticky-fingers wrote:Consumer feedback isn't the ultimate feedback. It should, but ultimate feedback are stock prices..


Consumer feedback is still the ultimate feedback. For example, if everybody stopped buying Brawny Paper Towels, Brawny Paper Towels wouldn't exist. It's why companies need to reinvest themselves and products constantly to keep up with consumer demand.

sticky-fingers wrote:I never pretend to know you or your life. When i take your arguments, in a "bigger picture", you overreact that way :roll: it's pretty hard to debate with someone whose reasoning is limited to "black or white", with no open mind. So I will limit my interactions with you.


Well don't "Real World" me.

In regards to big picture, I am looking at the big picture. I havn't been overreacting, I've been talking about the issues with the game, and the glaring issue of the VC approach. I consider issues like the VC one black and white, as well as the driving issue. absolutely. That driving issue exists 100% (Even you have said it numerous times in here). So I have not missed the big picture. Big picture is reviews dominated by favoritism that gives well over double the score of user reviews, showing a complete disconnect from the consumer base. Unfortunately, with no title competing at the moment (Live has improved, but not enough), they can get away with having ballooned sales because its really the only serious basketball title.

That's up to you about limiting interactions, I understand. Just know that this thread and other threads outside of modding exist for a reason. I think the discussion of gameplay in general on the NLSC needs to be amped up, as we seem to be mostly about modding, when gameplay issues and gameplay in general needs to be discussed more often.

To the people posting above me, I agree that the CPU plays tight often. And it shouldn't happen as often, however... even with the defender plays off (Like 3 to 5 feet off) you can still run forward and the defender will get on your side and you still get to the hoop.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby skoadam on Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:54 am

sticky-fingers wrote:
skoadam wrote:sticky-fingers, you are just wrong dude and to be honest, whenever i read your post it sounds like trolling.


When I suggest to activate CPU ACE and help defense, is it trolling ? Have you tried ?

BTW skoadam, your great work for this community doesnt allow you to come here to bash me, even more without any argument.

Man you posted Joe Ingles movies with one drive against 42 years old Carter and one drive against Leonard and you want to say its some kind of norm in NBA for players like joe. You tryin to prove that driving to the basket all day long by any player is better than using dribble moves, speed, quickness to get to the rim in 2k17. Man its trolling.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby Dee4Three on Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:19 am

It's not even about comparing, if the game was stand alone and 2K17 didn't exist, it would still be equally as ridiculous. Literally no skill involved to get to the hoop or really anywhere on the floor offensively.

The new system was very poorly executed.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby sticky-fingers on Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:38 am

skoadam wrote:Man you posted Joe Ingles movies with one drive against 42 years old Carter and one drive against Leonard and you want to say its some kind of norm in NBA for players like joe. You tryin to prove that driving to the basket all day long by any player is better than using dribble moves, speed, quickness to get to the rim in 2k17. Man its trolling.


No, i just say drive happens, just before Joe Ingles videos :

I write mostly because easy drives happen in NBA (but never in 2K16/17 vs HoF CPU)


Learn to read, don't take shortcuts.

Who's trolling so...
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby Dee4Three on Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:42 am

Not one person in here said that drives don't happen. Not one.

Bottom line: Lets squash the arguing. Sticky, I appreciate the support through 2K17, and I appreciate your effort trying to come up with a solution to the defense. I applaud that. It's been admitted that it's a big gameplay flaw by most everybody in here (Some thought it was, but not AS BIG as I did). The bottom line is, we all agree that the system needs some serious tweaking in a patch or 2K19.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby bongo88 on Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:31 pm

skoadam wrote:Man you posted Joe Ingles movies with one drive against 42 years old Carter and one drive against Leonard and you want to say its some kind of norm in NBA for players like joe. You tryin to prove that driving to the basket all day long by any player is better than using dribble moves, speed, quickness to get to the rim in 2k17. Man its trolling.


i'll come defend sticky-fingers. i originally wrote this on page 1 of this thread, but i guess it wasn't a sound analysis because nobody replied to it. Take any quarter of any game and analyse the drives, most are either untouched or hipridden until help comes. For reference, the game below is 72-10 bulls. With the most athletic player to play the game: michael jordan defending stockton's dribble drives. (and a few other folks drives/defense).

tldr: there are 3 good defended drives out of 17 for the quarter. even chris morris (the possible equivalancy of joe ingles) could get to the basket untouched.

bongo88 wrote:It is my opinion that 2k makes drives artifically difficult. I watched the video and was wondering what you expected the cpu to happen, because my memory itched that most dribble drives in the nba are hipriding or fairly untouched. I started looking around youtube for dribble drive highlights and found a few then got distracted by a 1995 bulls/jazz game. I watched the whole game last night, and saw so many dribble drives that i was gonna come back today and notate them.

full disclosure, i watched nba religously from 89-2001 or so. then life got busy and have watched much. caught a couple of finals games last year. lebron gave his best, that's for sure. oh, and was a jazz fan. born in 84. all us kids idoloized stockton (we new we'd never have malone stature, but we could play like stockton). never played basketball seriously, but plenty of pickup for fun. just wasn't athletic enough to pursue. that's how i got distracted by this jazz/bull game, but noticed so many drives through the 4 quarters to look at. i remember watching this game because i remember the jordan dunk in the second half. whole stadium cheering for jordan, lol. me too on the couch. couldn't help myself, that jordan for you.

sadly, only got through the first quarter due to time restraints, but you should watch the whole game. Its is just beautiful. anyways, the bulls went 72-10 that year, the jazz went 55-27.

examples of blow by drives:
link stockton blows by jordan. untouched. even worse than your 2k18 video.
link jordan with the drive untouched, little bit of hip riding, but so little i decided to put it in this category.

dribble drives untouched/hipriding

link stockton untouched help defense over
link stockton untouched through the lane
link not really a dribble drive, but longley to the basket untouched
link malone dribble drive untouched, help comes
link lol chris morris untouched with 4 bulls around him, lol
link morris untouched, help doubled
link stockton with a drive, morris with drive on kucos(mismatch)(possible morris charge), then kucos trying to hedge benoit liek players do in 2k(kukoc gets the foul) (this is an amazing camera angle of spacing on drives)
link bulls big man drive (cant tell who) it is kucos\
link malone drives untouched. jordan all over on defense-- where'd he learn to play defense, 2k? left his guy hornacek wide open, team rating going to go down :) haha :)
link bull big man caffey untouched with malone defending. runs into helps. good replay footage.
https://youtu.be/S850XEVcF58?t=1592 stockton dribble drive. not much pressure on carr drive. then too bad jordan missed end of quater shot. woulda been a good one. :)

good drive defense
link - very good dribble drive defense by jordan, but still not much touching, no hard hedge
link - stockton testing jordans dribble drive defense, still not much touching
link - stockton testing jordan again a simple twitch sends jordon into high alert (this one probably doesn't belong here. no drive occured)
link - hornacek playing point. jordan cuts him off. very different respect from jordan towards hornacek than jordan/stockton due to hornacek not athletic.

Transition defense
link pippen transition blows by malone
link jordan on semi trasition open jumper
link 2 plays stockton transition then jordan transition on next play
link malone trying to slam the ball against longley, (longle dodged) haha. then stockton playing dirty with dangerous defensive play in trasition (could be an injury on pippen if things went bad)
link horrible tranistion decision by bulls (cant tell who) felt like 2k :)

capitilizing on mistakes
link malone mistake jordan with defensive rebound capitilizing on malone mistake (perfect malone positioning)
link pippen mistake
link hornacek under the screen. jordan capitalizes.


random haha (mostly commentary lol )
link haha story about jordan going to local movie theater (random, lol)
link jordan attemptin 4 threes a game, so many! :)
link haha rookie ostertag... we jazz fans loved/hated that guy :)
link LOL LOL pippen with an airball freethrow :) we shoulda had reddit back then :) he woulda been roasted :) lol fans and commentators acknowledge it loool :)
link hornacek could shoot... 59% from 3 course it was early in the season... commentary
link haha, another pippen airball freethrow. bad night for pippen :) love them 90s utah fans :) haha, commentary about bleeding uniforms when washed, funny guys :)
link jordan all over on defense. where'd he learn to play defense, 2k? left his guy hornacek wide open, team rating going to go down :) haha :)

again, that was all in the first quarter. i watched the whole game last night. more examples in the next 3 quarters. no time this morning. outta the whole game dribble drives, most went untouched/hipriding. few were well gaurded. most relied on help defense to rotate.

now, this isn't the greatest sample size. I included the big men plays for variety. I'd need to watch a variety of games with a variety of players. But these bulls/jazz were no slouch on defense. i'd need a few more games to watch with different players... was gonna watch bulls/san antonion game on the sidebar, but this took too much time.

I say 2k makes dribble drives artifically difficult because according to my memory most drives are rather untouched. link 2k does stuff like this. i tried to find the equivallency in the nba and came up with this play. link not really a great example. doesnt seem to happen that often.

link possibly this play jordan/hornacek is equivalancy. but jordan knows he very much more athletic than hornacek and to jump that drive is quite a bit of quickness and defensive awareness from jordan. would another less equal player jumped that drive in that manner? dunno.

these are the other examples i found before getting distracted by the jazz/bull game
harden untouched on iso plays: link

link nice dribble drive breakdown. 2 drives on this play, 1st drive the pg recovers, but the 2nd drive follows the same hip riding motion almost untouched, the drive is ended by help defense in the paint, which led to the kick out

anyways, it's my opinion that this 2k, while not perfect, and while can be exploited if user want to, is moving in the right direction with the movement scheme. I am super impressed in the customability of this 2k. they added more movement sliders. the difference between tomba sliders here and shady sliders hereis amazing that you can get the game to feel so different.

with your video, the help defense should rotate more. i havent looked much into iso drive by plays to see how help defense rotates in real nba, but to say that this doesn't mimick nba drives just itches my memory wrong.

oh, transition defense... long passes can also be exploited. but i think its better than cpu ai deflecting passes that they not even looking at (happened lots on transittion in old 2k games). i got no problem with the transition defense clips you posted. in full transition defense (and transition defense that is just sets) all sorta things happen on defense/offense. its part of the game.

anyways, perhaps help should slide over more and movement can be slowed/sped up (both helped with nba2k sliders), but to say that nba players are always stonewalled on a dribble drive is just wrong according to my memory of the games i've watched.

the real question: is this game artificial, or are older 2k dribble drives artificial and this game more true to player movement.

in my opinion, the hip riding animation is a nice break from the stonewalling, but 2k needs to put even more seperation on drives.

ps. make sure you watch the 2 pippen airball freethrows :) my favorite clips of first quarter haha :) hate them bulls... boohoohooohooo :( gonna need tissues as i cry and cry on my way to work, haha :)

simply put: most dribble drives in the nba are either hip ridden or untouched.
Barkley_Sixers wrote: wrote:
Ironically, I came here just to post the video of Semi vs Giannis Lol. It's the exact possession that you are talking about

https://streamable.com/tppzq

show me a quarter of basketball where this happens on "most" dribble drives. this is a perfectly defended basketball.... but how often does it happen in the nba? how often should it happen in a 2k bsketball game?

Now, should ostertag be driving by david robinson? no, never. Ostertag never once drove past anyone because he doesn't have the talent or handles. Now david robinson, he had both talent and excellent handles. He routinely drove to the basket.
Is there a problem with dribble drives? yes.
But nba players get to the basket untouched. The real question is, can they finish at the basket.... does help defense come... do they bumble the ball while driving... etc.
Can ostertag make a good dribble drive and finish in 2k18. yes he can. should he be able to exceute a perfect drive, most definitly not.
i have found that roster edits have provided very useful in mimicing real life. with my custom edits on ostertag, if i chose to drive anywhere he bumbles the ball, just as he should. Ostertag was no david robinson or prime shaq. those guys had handles.
should 2k have done proper roster edits? of course they should have, but i'm sure lots of priorites occure in a 1 year development cycle.

i dont buy 2k every year (most i get on steam sales), i passed on 2k15-2k17 because of this animation link. show me an nba quarter where that happens on every single drive.
with the new movement sliders and roster edits and tweaks to the blocking/charging fouls, i've improved 2k18 greatly. should 2k have done this in the past year of development, yes... but i'm sure the studio had lots of stuff to worry about from their publishers -- mostly milking the masses for VC money
take two owns both rockstar and 2k. go read how much gta5 has made in micro transaction. then you will understand why 2k basketball is headed in that direction. Take two certainly knows how to rake in money from the masses.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby Dee4Three on Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:14 pm

Bongo, you can drive whenever you want on anybody you want, anybody in the whole league. And finish over 60% and sometimes 70% doing it. Making it so dribble moves, strategy, anything else isn't needed. Better defenders in real life don't matter in the game, because they all get burned.

It literally is a gamebreaker because of that. What is said above is fact Bongo and Sticky. It feels foolish to even play it. When I do a dribble move I feel like an idiot, when I do anything that resembles strategy I feel like an idiot.

The system is so flawed.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby sticky-fingers on Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:16 pm

bongo88 wrote:i'll come defend sticky-fingers.

Thanx for the support bongo88 ;) but don't waste your time because they keep one sentence and miss others like this one.
Can ostertag make a good dribble drive and finish in 2k18. yes he can. should he be able to exceute a perfect drive, most definitly not.

So you can't really debate.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby Dee4Three on Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:34 am

sticky-fingers wrote:
bongo88 wrote:i'll come defend sticky-fingers.

Thanx for the support bongo88 ;) but don't waste your time because they keep one sentence and miss others like this one.
Can ostertag make a good dribble drive and finish in 2k18. yes he can. should he be able to exceute a perfect drive, most definitly not.

So you can't really debate.



And that's all I have been getting at. When you actually look at the evidence, the issue is a big one and cannot be debated. For those who don't want to fake sim, it is truly a gamebreaker.

We seem to all agree that it's a big issue. So we can stop arguing. The thread was created to shine light on the issues.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby fjccommish on Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:50 am

Where is Leftos, the community minded dev, on this?
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby bongo88 on Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:06 am

Dee4Three wrote:Bongo, you can drive whenever you want on anybody you want, anybody in the whole league. And finish over 60% and sometimes 70% doing it. Making it so dribble moves, strategy, anything else isn't needed.


Your numbers: 70% of drives finish at the rim. 30% drives are well defened. Sounds like percentages pulled straight from the nba. like i said from the jazz/bulls game, 3 out of 17 drives in the first quarter were well defended. only a few options occur on a dribble drive: player bumbles the ball (no handles), player misses the layup (no finishing skill), player gets blocked by front defender or help defense (blocks dont happen that often https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/blocks-per-game range from 2.4-8.9 per game), or a foul is called. each one of these options can be adjusted with roster edit or movement slider.

Most drives in the nba get to the rim untouched. show me a quarter of nba play where most drives are well defended. it sounds like 2k watched hours and hours of tape and built a movement system to reflect that, because your own numbers are reflected in actual nba play.

Dee4Three wrote:Better defenders in real life don't matter in the game, because they all get burned.


nobody was a better defender than jordan. very few were more athletic than jordan. watch the whole jazz/bulls game. stockton got to the rim untouched whenever he wanted to. Show me any full game or quarter of game where an "elite defender" is defending 80% of dribble drives perfectly. The driving system in 2k18 reflects real nba players.
sticky-fingers wrote:
bongo88 wrote: Can ostertag make a good dribble drive and finish in 2k18. yes he can. should he be able to exceute a perfect drive, most definitly not.


So you can't really debate.

why can't i debate? i have no problem with the movement in 2k18. i have a problem with their roster/movement sliders.

Ostertag should be able to drive to the basket. But: he should not be able to perform complicated dribble moves, because he had no handles. he should not be able to retain control while dribbling full speed, because he never was able to. he should not be able to make a complicated layup, because he could barely make a regular layup.
The only problem i have with 2k18 is when players with no handles are executing a perfect dribble drive. luckily, this is easily fixed with a proper roster edits. With roster edit i can fix ostertag so he act accordingly. Many players need are rated way too high and play outside thier skillset.
2k did not provide an accurate roster, but they did provide an accurate movement system framework. now that they provided sliders for topspeed, topspeed with ball, etc. things can be fixed. yes 2k should have developed all this properly, but i'm sure they have their reasons why they did not prioritize it within their development timeframe.
most dribble drives in the nba are untouched. even in the 80s and 90s. it's even worse nowaday. was watching a jazz/lakers game last week and rubio runs all over the court willy-nilly. like he's picking flowers in a meadow.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby Dee4Three on Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:16 am

its 100% getting by the guy Bongo. It's not "Better defended", players just miss at the rim. It's literally 100% drive-by.

Everybody blends in together on the court, defenders, offensive players. It's no fun, nothing realistic about it at all.

Nobody ever gets shut off, nobody runs into a defender whos arms are stretched with ground stood. It never happens in this game. I literally just run by my defender to the hoop.

I showed me with whiteside driving from the perimieter and shooting close to 70% from the floor while winning the game easily (Up by a lot before shutting it off). It was on every possession, defense didn't adjust, defender didn't adjust, just boom.. to the hoop. Meanwhile, the Jazz were 3-19 and playing some of the dumbest offense I have seen an AI play, on the hardest level... with CPU sliders jacked up. Whiteside, from the perimeter, driving. No sugarcoating that. That's the problem, I make Leonard look like crap all game, I just blow by him and no help comes. Its a joke.

Why are we even arguing about this? that is CLEARLY a giant issue, the unbelievably horrible defense is on all 3 that I posted. Me just toasting Curry on the hardest level with CPU sliders jacked to 100 with Frank, literally getting by him 100% of the time with no help coming.

You can't argue the videos guys, you can't argue that it's not a big problem. Unless you are willing to fake sim for no reason.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby sticky-fingers on Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:44 am

bongo88 wrote:why can't i debate ?

You can't debate with Dee4Three and skoadam. They take one sentence of our posts, and omit the rest, they take Dee's videos for granted, but not real videos from NBA.

bongo88 wrote:i have a problem with their roster/movement sliders.

I start a MyLeague with All Teams (NBA/Classic/AllTime). While drive remains too easy, i can see more CPU defensive help, much more blocks.
I even can see CPU drive and push me the way.
So there's perhaps something to dig on roster edit.

bongo88 wrote:Many players need are rated way too high and play outside thier skillset.

Again, pretty agree. Still on MyLeague, i played vs Dirk who dribbled like Curry and drove like Lebron.
Same for Wilt or KAJ for the dribble.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby Dee4Three on Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:50 am

I literally posted videos of it happening in the game. My contest is that it's unrealistic and way to easy. Which part of that are you not taking seriously? Check Rudy Gobert and see what he holds his offensive player to in FG% (that stat is somewhere), can guarantee you it's nowhere near 70% from the field.

Go look at what Steph Curry holds his defender to in %, can guarantee it's not like 70%.

Blow bys on every play? Well, that means anybody could be a star. Anybody can be a slasher. I can start an association and score 100 points a game with Trevor Ariza on straight line drives.

I didn't say players never get the defensive player on his side. And, the better slasher do it more in real life. Never said it doesn't happen.

But 100% of the time? Guys... seriously...

So which part of I can score 100 points a game with any player on straight line drives and win by blowout do you guys disagree with?
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby PeacemanNOT on Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:07 am

I don't know how this affects anything, but this was addressed in Patch 5 that was just released on PS4:

https://twitter.com/Beluba/status/925870841757175808
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby Dee4Three on Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:30 am

PeacemanNOT wrote:I don't know how this affects anything, but this was addressed in Patch 5 that was just released on PS4:

https://twitter.com/Beluba/status/925870841757175808


Zig Zag wasn't eliminated, it just impacts the shooting percentage when taking a shot after zig zagging a lot, which he clarifies in his comments after somebody questions it.

It doesn't have anything to do with the straight line drive success. I was hoping it did.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby Andrew on Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:50 am

It's a cheap online tactic though, so I'm glad it's been addressed nevertheless. Here's hoping it's effective.

Of course, that still leaves other gameplay issues to be addressed, including the one this topic has discussed in great detail.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby fjccommish on Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:37 am

I still wonder where's Leftos, the great community advocate, on this.

Just played a half (couldn't tolerate more) with the 95-96 Bulls vs the current Phoenix Suns. I played locked as the Center (Longley and Wennington), didn't call plays (didn't call ISO's), but did call for the ball and drove to the basket every time.

In a half, driving in a straight line every time with slow footed Luc and slower footed Wennington, this was the result:

HOF/Default Sliders

Bulls trail 65-62

Locked Center (Luc Longley and Bill Wennington): 24 - 56 shooting, 52 points (4 FT's hit with Longley, but lots of FT's missed with Wennington).

When you're constantly waiting for one side of the court to clear so you can drive Luc Longley or Bill Wennington through/around a defender to the basket for a reverse layup, you might have a broken game.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby lurumagno on Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:17 am

Hi all,Dee4Three is right.

I've played a whole season with OKC,and it is more than evident that to penetrate to basket this year is too easy.

I scored around 120 points each game at 12 minutes, and from those points scored around 80 points from the paint.HOF dificulty.

Not only that,i edited the sliders a lot of times, putting the defense in all aspects to 100%, and even so and risking to be unrealistic matches I have not got the cpu defend in conditions.

The only thing you have to do is go to the corner of the track and penetrate to basket with any player, even with the worst of the team, that the cpu will let you pass.Many times also the only thing you have to do is run forward, in fact you do not have to do a dribbling .... you need 0 skill.The gameplay of 2k18 is better than 2k17 in general,but this issue ruins the game.

I am playing 2k17 again because in general the cpu is a bigger challenge, although the movements are more robotics.

Regards and sorry for my bad english.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby sticky-fingers on Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:36 am

I had fun on 2K17 with Dee43's mods, but like you said, the movements are more robotics, i cant play it anymore.
It has flaws too. I wouldnt call a better challenge when on fastbreak any fast play can be stopped by any slow substitute Center because of the invisible wall (even with D43'sliders)

BTW I've found a way to fix this issue on 2K18. ISO system dont work anymore.
Ooops 2K did it again... i'll post a video later.
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Re: The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

Postby sticky-fingers on Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:04 pm

Coach' settings are the same for player and CPU. But CPU coach never changes, never adjust and default options are on manual or off.

Where's a quick video :
phpBB [video]


you had to do that before each game, because theses settings arent in an options menu.
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