Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby Dee4Three on Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:48 am

I am digging the patch notes, hopefully we get the PC patch soon.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby PeacemanNOT on Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:17 am

Dee4Three wrote:I am digging the patch notes, hopefully we get the PC patch soon.

My game just updated, not sure if it was the patch but I would assume so.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby Andrew on Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:53 am

Yeah, it seems the patch is already coming through for PC.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby Phil89 on Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:58 am

Just downloaded it on PS4. Haven't played a game yet, though.

This is the first update since I upgraded to NBN recently. So nice that it only took about 45 minutes, instead of the usual 6+ hours (Y)
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby Andrew on Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:05 am

It's encouraging to hear people are actually having positive experiences after upgrading to the NBN. It's been a disaster here in the Hunter.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby Phil89 on Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:34 am

So far it's been good.

Before my downloads usually topped out at around 400 kb/s. Pretty sure this update was going around 5 or 6 times faster than that.

Those numbers are still kinda unimpressive in comparison to a lot of places, I guess. But it is definitely a noticeable improvement and I'm happy with it.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby Andrew on Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:43 am

My concern is that a lot of people have been getting slower than ADSL2 speeds, and I'm getting close to the maximum of 20 Mbps currently, so I can usually download at a rate of around 2 MB/s, which by Aussie standards is pretty good when it comes to big files. It's coming to my area very soon, so fingers crossed it all goes well.

Especially since the PS4 patch is cumulative, so we end up with 7.5 GB downloads every time. The 45 MB patch for the PC version is much easier on the monthly cap.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby I Hate Mondays on Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:50 pm

For those who didn't open Andrew's extra link with Da_Cezar's notes, 2K also updated tendencies for the whole 2K official Roster. It's a shame they didn't tackle the badges (Harden is still a silver dimer) or some hotzones, but one step a time. Really glad they did that
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby Dee4Three on Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:11 pm

Here is my review of the patch:

Nothing changed... with the exception of the bumping that occurs when you are ahead of the defender and he is close to you trying to catch you.

The players still feel heavy, the defense is breaking down the exact same, and it just doesn't feel like a smooth basketball game. Trying to stay positive, but it doesn't seem to me that they implemented any of the feedback us users gave into this patch, I'm not sure what this was.

Luckily, when I bought the game on Steam, I backed up the .exe from Sept 17th, with no patches. The players feel lighter, the movement on the court is overall more realistic, the dribbling feels better, and while yes the defense still breaks down sometimes, it is not as bad.

If I hadn't backed up that .exe, I would have gone back to NBA 2K12 after the patches. But, the game is still enjoyable with the original .exe.

It's still frustrating to me, though. Because I think about how patches are supposed to enhance the users experience, patches are there to help. But 2k's patches seem to just make the game a whole lot worse. The fact that they patched so many good things out the original game is puzzling....

2k wouldn't want me working for them, because I would completely overhaul most of the attributes, tendencies, and signatures. Some for the current teams, but basically for all the classic teams.

Cmon 2k, let's just stop the patching for 2k17, for the users sake. They don't seem to be helping at all.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby Andrew on Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:52 pm

Played a MyCAREER game this evening. It felt like my teammates were a bit smarter defensively, at least when it came to switching on the pick and roll. The opposition was a bit tougher as well, but apart from that, not too much of a difference from before. It was nice to have a bit more help in pick and roll situations, though.

There are still cheap steals and charging calls; found that out between tonight's game, and playing some 2K Pro-Am the other night.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby Dee4Three on Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:45 am

Andrew wrote:Played a MyCAREER game this evening. It felt like my teammates were a bit smarter defensively, at least when it came to switching on the pick and roll. The opposition was a bit tougher as well, but apart from that, not too much of a difference from before. It was nice to have a bit more help in pick and roll situations, though.

There are still cheap steals and charging calls; found that out between tonight's game, and playing some 2K Pro-Am the other night.


For some reason I saw np difference on pick n rolls. And the players still felt really heavy.

Either way, sticking with the original .exe for now.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby Andrew on Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:09 am

I might have just lucked out, I'll have to play a few more games to really test it out, but there seemed to be fewer mistakes and times when my teammate left someone open to shoot or waltz into the lane. Previously, it didn't really matter what you did trying to defend the pick and roll in MyCAREER; your teammate always messed up, while you struggled to defend two players. To go a whole game without constant major blunders makes me think something got fixed, but again, I'll need to play a few more games to be sure.

The charge/block frequency in modes where you can't change the sliders is still problematic though, and the cheap steals are frustrating. I can put my hand up and admit some of them were my own fault, but others were definitely the case of AI players having superhuman reflexes and awareness, so that remains an annoyance.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby Dee4Three on Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:46 am

It's the making the players so heavy that doesn't make sense to me. Letting the game update to the latest patch, and playing a full game, and than going back and using the original .exe without any patches, and playing the whole game, is like night and day.

The original .exe before patches, the players move SO MUCH BETTER. Not only in a straight line, but laterally... they feel far lighter. The animations seems faster, and there seems to also be MANY more animations with the original .exe. I'm seeing dunk animations and layup animations that seem to have vanished after the patches.

My guess is: They slowed the game down because of online users complaining about things. It really is a shame.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby StyxTx on Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:54 am

Dee4Three wrote:It's the making the players so heavy that doesn't make sense to me. Letting the game update to the latest patch, and playing a full game, and than going back and using the original .exe without any patches, and playing the whole game, is like night and day.

The original .exe before patches, the players move SO MUCH BETTER. Not only in a straight line, but laterally... they feel far lighter. The animations seems faster, and there seems to also be MANY more animations with the original .exe. I'm seeing dunk animations and layup animations that seem to have vanished after the patches.

My guess is: They slowed the game down because of online users complaining about things. It really is a shame.


Every year each patch screws the game up more and more. I've always found the game plays best at release.

You are correct that all these changes come from the whiners who play on-line who want the developers to introduce cheats into the game to make it easier for them rather than learn how to actually play the game. It aggravates me to no end that off-line players have to deal with the changes too. I never have played on-line and don't plan on ever doing so. If mycareer is tied into the on-line game next year in any manner, I'm not buying.

But then, if NBA Live can come out with a good game, I'm not wasting time on 2k either.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby Dee4Three on Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:21 am

The problem is, I don't think it's even possible for them to have patches that just impact online and have hands off of offline. Also, I don't think they would want to go that direction anyway, if the game played that much better offline than online, I feel like people would complain even more.

I just wish us offline players didn't get left in the dust in regards to gameplay. Honestly, I'm not even sure how people enjoy the game online with the players feeling that heavy.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby StyxTx on Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:00 am

Dee4Three wrote:The problem is, I don't think it's even possible for them to have patches that just impact online and have hands off of offline. Also, I don't think they would want to go that direction anyway, if the game played that much better offline than online, I feel like people would complain even more.

I just wish us offline players didn't get left in the dust in regards to gameplay. Honestly, I'm not even sure how people enjoy the game online with the players feeling that heavy.



Well, I guess I won't be buying anymore. The only people that should complain if offline played better are the ones at 2k since they'd be losing a hell of a lot of $ for VC if people gravitated to offline play.

The other option is to stop placating the whiners who don't want to bother to learn the game by not putting out patch/update after patch/update. If the whiners don't like it, they can stop playing.

But after years of on-line whiners screwing the game up for me, I'm at the end of the line.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby Andrew on Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:52 am

I haven't really noticed the heaviness playing on PS4. I need to spend more time with the PC version to compare. I wouldn't have thought there'd be any difference, but I'll try it out nevertheless.

As I've said before, the unfortunate thing is that the changes that are supposedly being made to improve online play haven't actually enhanced the experience at all. If that's the aim, they've missed the mark there as well, while causing issues in the offline experience.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby Dee4Three on Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:37 am

Andrew wrote:I haven't really noticed the heaviness playing on PS4. I need to spend more time with the PC version to compare. I wouldn't have thought there'd be any difference, but I'll try it out nevertheless.

As I've said before, the unfortunate thing is that the changes that are supposedly being made to improve online play haven't actually enhanced the experience at all. If that's the aim, they've missed the mark there as well, while causing issues in the offline experience.


You would certainly notice it if you had the original .exe for PC, which Im guessing you don't. It's night and day different.

However, I have not touched the game this year on console, so I am not sure how the players feel. I just know that some of the patches (Which had the same notes related to speed), were supposedly submitted for PC/PS4/X1. So, I would assume the game was slowed down for the consoles as well.

I entertained going to pick up a console version to test it out, but... I won't ever play console as long as they keep releasing PC versions, so I said NAH.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby Andrew on Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:53 am

Yeah, the fixes are the same across all three platforms, so it shouldn't feel any different. Maybe I've somehow adjusted without really thinking about it. Hard to say at this point.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby mickachiste on Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:15 pm

Dee4Three wrote:It's the making the players so heavy that doesn't make sense to me. Letting the game update to the latest patch, and playing a full game, and than going back and using the original .exe without any patches, and playing the whole game, is like night and day.

The original .exe before patches, the players move SO MUCH BETTER. Not only in a straight line, but laterally... they feel far lighter. The animations seems faster, and there seems to also be MANY more animations with the original .exe. I'm seeing dunk animations and layup animations that seem to have vanished after the patches.

My guess is: They slowed the game down because of online users complaining about things. It really is a shame.


If I erase the game and reinstall it. Will the original.exe be the same as the one you are using ?
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby Andrew on Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:15 pm

The new updates will be downloaded again.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby StyxTx on Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:10 pm

mickachiste wrote:
Dee4Three wrote:It's the making the players so heavy that doesn't make sense to me. Letting the game update to the latest patch, and playing a full game, and than going back and using the original .exe without any patches, and playing the whole game, is like night and day.

The original .exe before patches, the players move SO MUCH BETTER. Not only in a straight line, but laterally... they feel far lighter. The animations seems faster, and there seems to also be MANY more animations with the original .exe. I'm seeing dunk animations and layup animations that seem to have vanished after the patches.

My guess is: They slowed the game down because of online users complaining about things. It really is a shame.


If I erase the game and reinstall it. Will the original.exe be the same as the one you are using ?


No. It's all been updated with the most recent files.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby Lagoa on Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:25 am

Yeah, IMO, 2k destroys the game again with patch 12 (it´s the 3rd time THIS YEAR).

Before the patch, defense have collapses, ok, but gameplay is faster, players is smooth. After the patch, all players, without Kyrie Irving moving like Shaquille O´Neal.

So, like others years, i have the 1.08 exe backup, so, i´m go back to my old game, without online and patch 12.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby talladega on Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:01 pm

Lagoa wrote:Yeah, IMO, 2k destroys the game again with patch 12 (it´s the 3rd time THIS YEAR).

Before the patch, defense have collapses, ok, but gameplay is faster, players is smooth. After the patch, all players, without Kyrie Irving moving like Shaquille O´Neal.

So, like others years, i have the 1.08 exe backup, so, i´m go back to my old game, without online and patch 12.


I'm agree with this post.
And now we can only hope the next 2k18 is better
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby Kohonski on Mon May 01, 2017 7:58 am

StyxTx wrote:
mickachiste wrote:
Dee4Three wrote:It's the making the players so heavy that doesn't make sense to me. Letting the game update to the latest patch, and playing a full game, and than going back and using the original .exe without any patches, and playing the whole game, is like night and day.

The original .exe before patches, the players move SO MUCH BETTER. Not only in a straight line, but laterally... they feel far lighter. The animations seems faster, and there seems to also be MANY more animations with the original .exe. I'm seeing dunk animations and layup animations that seem to have vanished after the patches.

My guess is: They slowed the game down because of online users complaining about things. It really is a shame.


If I erase the game and reinstall it. Will the original.exe be the same as the one you are using ?


No. It's all been updated with the most recent files.


So.. I do have the original .exe and I didn't actually try it out until today. Tried it out and holy shit I remember why I loved 2k17 when it released (still play a lot now)! Is there any way to transfer a myGM save over? When I use the original .exe I have to start all over again. I'm in 2030 now and I'd like to not start all the way over if I don't have to.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby deihatein on Mon May 01, 2017 3:29 pm

The patch made it easier to hit 3's for some reason and they are always excellent release too. It seems to play fast that the defense can't keep up, it's pretty bad especially when playing with friends that plays a faster pace.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby Andrew on Mon May 01, 2017 3:53 pm

There's been quite a few tuning updates pushed through. Supposedly another one has come through today, adjusting green releases once again.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby Dee4Three on Tue May 02, 2017 1:50 am

Kohonski wrote:
StyxTx wrote:
mickachiste wrote:
Dee4Three wrote:It's the making the players so heavy that doesn't make sense to me. Letting the game update to the latest patch, and playing a full game, and than going back and using the original .exe without any patches, and playing the whole game, is like night and day.

The original .exe before patches, the players move SO MUCH BETTER. Not only in a straight line, but laterally... they feel far lighter. The animations seems faster, and there seems to also be MANY more animations with the original .exe. I'm seeing dunk animations and layup animations that seem to have vanished after the patches.

My guess is: They slowed the game down because of online users complaining about things. It really is a shame.


If I erase the game and reinstall it. Will the original.exe be the same as the one you are using ?


No. It's all been updated with the most recent files.


So.. I do have the original .exe and I didn't actually try it out until today. Tried it out and holy shit I remember why I loved 2k17 when it released (still play a lot now)! Is there any way to transfer a myGM save over? When I use the original .exe I have to start all over again. I'm in 2030 now and I'd like to not start all the way over if I don't have to.


It makes a huge difference.. that is what I have been talking about. I also have my .exe from early December with the POE in there and the key zoom adjustable, and it plays very well with that .exe too.

This is why the crazy amount of patches and tuning updates are just not necessary, and IMO.... broke the game. To me, the game is not enjoyable at all after all the updates.

I am finally enjoying the game again by using old .exes.

And I'm sorry, I can answer your MYGM question.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby Skysect on Thu May 11, 2017 10:38 pm

That year 2K released much more patches than 2016 . Now I want to backup my game . What do you thinking about that ? That was the last patch ? Or they could be release something new ? Seems NBA 2K18 pre-orders are open . That would be weird though :)
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby CatScooter on Sat May 13, 2017 3:23 am

I totally have to agree with Dee here. The vanilla version of the game absolutely has less weight on the players. They felt far more nimble and responsive. I remember that was the first thing I noticed when playing for the first time. They ended up messing with it really early in the cycle and it's gotten worse consecutively with each patch. I still enjoyed the updates that have come along the way but each patch outside of 1.08-1.11 play differently offline 1.07 really threw off the rhythm of shooting the ball. I remember spending far more time than usual in practice mode getting a feel for how the shots get influenced with the stick. 1.12 shoots better certainly. Really shame that the nimbleness of the players got axed at like 1.02 or 1.03. 1.12 is still a better state of the game than I expected it to be in to be fair.

Edit: after playing the vanilla compared to 1.12. The movement in the vanilla version essentially felt smoother. People wanted "responsiveness" which I argue is still there in the vanilla version. They moved their hips and changed their direction with more fluidity. There were also way less tire irons clanking off the front of the rim. The ball felt more random. Also to note, squaring up for a straight up jump shot vs shooting even with slight movement is also more delicate too... Which I actually like, it works with their momentum a bit more. 1.12 is better at this than the previous updates but the players don't feel like their "hips are as loose". As far as jumping for rebounds and blocks, the player moves along with his momentum as well. It's easier to change and approach how to go up to defend a shot as well. Easier to go up with your arms straight up. Easier to smash the ball out of bounds. Also easier to make contact while you're in the air. Anyway, it's worth trying out the differences. I think it's also not just about player controlled movement at the end of the day. They had to patch the movement so the AI motion itself is tighter. There were certain types of motion that the AI couldn't achieve because the models wouldn't hit a curl the right way etc. Once they lock that down I think some of the natural "looseness" of the players from the vanilla version would shine far more. Especially players with higher and lower types of offensive IQ and defensive IQ. They stick out so much when you compare the two.

Edit2: I will say that I do feel like 1.12 is the best version of everything release post vanilla so thankful for that at least. Super curious to see how 2k18 is out of the box.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby deihatein on Tue May 16, 2017 5:52 am

The game is unplayable so far with the green release bs. It's hard to play a fair game when you have guys like Elried Payton hitting perfect release 3's on the first play of game, Draymond Green shooting stop and pop 3's in a fastbreak and your teammates AI basically not having the speed for whatever reason to keep up defensively.
shadowgrin wrote:Quick question: who is better in basketball, a black dude or a pinoy dude. If you thought or considered for a moment that it's the black dude then you're also a little bit racist.

End of any racist discussion.


Pinoy > Dallas Mavericks
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby timmyturner on Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:29 am

Dee4Three wrote:
Andrew wrote:I haven't really noticed the heaviness playing on PS4. I need to spend more time with the PC version to compare. I wouldn't have thought there'd be any difference, but I'll try it out nevertheless.

As I've said before, the unfortunate thing is that the changes that are supposedly being made to improve online play haven't actually enhanced the experience at all. If that's the aim, they've missed the mark there as well, while causing issues in the offline experience.


You would certainly notice it if you had the original .exe for PC, which Im guessing you don't. It's night and day different.

However, I have not touched the game this year on console, so I am not sure how the players feel. I just know that some of the patches (Which had the same notes related to speed), were supposedly submitted for PC/PS4/X1. So, I would assume the game was slowed down for the consoles as well.

I entertained going to pick up a console version to test it out, but... I won't ever play console as long as they keep releasing PC versions, so I said NAH.


Hey man, would you mind sending me this original .exe you are talking about ? i'm really curious to try it out, it's been way too long since release day, i wanna see if it's better.
BTW i'm a fan of your content ! your all star roster is fantastic
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby hedop on Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:54 pm

Is there something new that dropped today? I'm in the middle of playing MyCareer and once the game finishes I can't get a connection so I back out of the whole thing and immediately get efeab30c error. I tried all the old tricks of playing now or running the whole credits but it doesn't do anything to prompt the download of a data pack. I'm at my wits end.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby Andrew on Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:57 pm

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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby hedop on Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:07 pm

Andrew wrote:Servers are currently down for maintenance.


Thanks Andrew... those wankers have got to be shitting me. On a fucking Saturday??? Nearly the whole fucking day in Europe??? And then have the audacity to only put that on twitter? Jesus Christ the amount of times I had to get rid of shitty VC and what not messages and they can't put a pop up in there saying "Listen up, the severs will be on maintenance from this time until this time in your specific timezone."? Jesus I have to get out the fucking timezone converter to find out how long it is in my timezone because I have no fucking idead what the differential between PT and CET is... Christ almighty.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby Andrew on Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:09 pm

An in-game pop-up notification with local times (kind of like when they announce the MyPARK events and whatnot) definitely would've been a good idea.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby hedop on Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:19 pm

Andrew wrote:An in-game pop-up notification with local times (kind of like when they announce the MyPARK events and whatnot) definitely would've been a good idea.


Isn't that what guys like Ronnie Singh should actually be for? I mean... come on hire me to do that stuff. Plus... I'm defo funnier than Ronnie plus I'd love to hit on Rachel :D.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby Andrew on Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:31 pm

I don't know if that's Ronnie's department, as he seems to be more involved with social media. In any event, announcements on social media make sense, but an in-game notification wouldn't have gone astray. That way, you can plan your gaming sessions accordingly, even if you're not active on social media. I suppose given their big following on Facebook and Twitter, they figure a majority of their user base are using one or the other (if not both) to keep up to date with those announcements, but yeah. It's just as important to push through notifications about that as VC sales or MyPARK events.
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby hedop on Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:42 pm

Andrew wrote:I don't know if that's Ronnie's department, as he seems to be more involved with social media. In any event, announcements on social media make sense, but an in-game notification wouldn't have gone astray. That way, you can plan your gaming sessions accordingly, even if you're not active on social media. I suppose given their big following on Facebook and Twitter, they figure a majority of their user base are using one or the other (if not both) to keep up to date with those announcements, but yeah. It's just as important to push through notifications about that as VC sales or MyPARK events.


I am active on Social Media. But it's not like 2k is the only guys I follow. They don't seem to realize that. If you have like 100 friends on Facebook or 50 or 60 people you follow on Twitter, chances are their notification will get lost somewhere. That's actually part of what we pay for. They pretty much abandoned their own forums, there isn't a single dev or even community manager available on Steam, their support takes days to get back to you and then they only give you instructions that have been posted all over the net. The only people I actually have gotten any answer from are Leftos and Rachel. So what on earth is all that money for? How does having one guy post like 3 twitter updates a day on their twitter site justify even having a community manager? Ronnie isn't even active on Facebook or on Youtube or on OS. So why have him in the first place? Why have a social media department when any monkey with a typewriter could do what they do?
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Re: Official Patch Notes & Discussion (Latest Patch: 1.12)

Postby Andrew on Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:58 pm

It doesn't help that both Facebook and Twitter's algorithms leave something to be desired these days. They did post about it a couple of days in advance, but as you said, those Tweets and posts can get lost in the shuffle.
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