Religious views

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

that's just horrible man.

Why is it horrible? Is it 'blasphemy' that is so naturally abhorrent to you? Why should greatness be reserved for God? Why can't you realise that there is still plenty of this greatness withing men, and they have yet to uncover and/or experience it?

Why should we focus our views on an external factor while we can delve deeper into ourselves for nearly all teh answers we seek. This is just a waste of grey matter.

...will you be so convinced on your deathbed I wonder?

As I said before, God is the manifestation of our natural desire to justify that which canot be justified. Like 'what happens after death'. We do have all the answers, yet they are not available to us at all times. When each man is in his deathbed, he judges his own life, his own path chosen. And therein lies his greatness. Hee does not need any 'higher being' to judge him. He , at that moment in time, judges himself, with no lies, no fake assumptions, just his inner and unhindered truth. And that is teh pinnacle of his achievements.


Omnipotency is not about cheating death... it's not about moving mountains, raising the deal, giving birth to new worlds and the like. It's much simpler than that. It's the ability to steer our lives, our worlds, in every direction we might wish to. Limitations are there for a reasosn, and obstacles in our path is just a means of testing our resolve, thu smaking us stronger. I don't need the power to perform miracles to be 'omnipotent'. I need only look within me, and my ability to make of which situation what I desire.

God is not something to be proven by some mathematical theorem, or solved in a court of law case with concrete evidence. There are kids who only need to hear, "God loves you" from their parents and they just KNOW that there is a God. They just need to crank back their necks and gaze into the lofty blue technicolored skies dotted with fluffy clouds and they just KNOW.

And there are some people who KNOW. KNOW that there is no need for God when they know how to feel and accept love within them. There is no need for God when they are true. And there is no need for God whne they have accepted their inevitable death. These men are one step further, if only because they do not need 'God' to feel better about their chances in an afterlife. They do not need the concept of 'Divine reward' to shed their fear of the Grim Reaper. They just KNOW, and nobody and nothing can take this strength away from them. They accept uncertainty up to a point, and they embrace it.

God loves you Mr. Dweaver, I sincerely believe that. Haven't you ever felt it?

oh, I indeed have. But my God has nothing to do with the Christian concept for a God. I adhere love, myself, but I am not bound by it. My Divine shows in the harmony of teh Universe, the equilibrium in the mental state that a man can achieve should he focus, and can be seen by just taking a look around. And , most importantly, in the knowledge that all of your successes, accomplishments and strengths can be taken away the next second, but you will still continue to do what you have been doing all along. Taking things as they come, becoming better in the process. This is 'God'.

[Jona]

There are kids who only need to hear, "God loves you" from their parents and they just KNOW that there is a God. They just need to crank back their necks and gaze into the lofty blue technicolored skies dotted with fluffy clouds and they just KNOW.

Mr. Bullsfan, THIS is the kind of talk that makes me resent religious organizations altogether. That is the problem with religious people. A kid does not need to hear "God loves you", at an early age the concept of God is not appropriately molded into the kid's mind. What they need to FEEL is their parent's love, not some omnipotent, omnipresent old man in the sky.

From a personal experience, I've seen believers get so blindfolded. Real problems, from lack of parental affection to drug adictions, get covered by religion. People put their hands in their eyes and pray for an answer. It's just pityful to see ignorance to that extent. With all due respect I think the idea of a deity is simply a crutch to believe in something, or an escape to troublesome situations.

Why should greatness be reserved for God?

And as Weaver said, there is NOTHING like being a rational, thinking being. Why can't religious people be happy about that. Being human is much more than we need, it's just an amazing stroke of luck that we are! The idea of being an animal so evolved that it can change its own sorrounding into something that can potentially serve him well is simply mindblowing.

[shadowgrin]

Jesus did exist, IMO. Jesus doesn't only exist in Christianity but in other religions as well. Jesus is a prophet in both Islam and Judaism, and not as the Son of God as he is in Christianity.

I'm a Roman Catholic.
I'm somewhat against organized religion, I hate it when religions, especially mine, try to convince the "non-believers" that theirs is the right religion and malign the other religions. Despite that, I still do believe in the existence of a God.

My god bitch-smites your god.

[Colin]

I'm somewhat against organized religion, I hate it when religions, especially mine, try to convince the "non-believers" that theirs is the right religion and malign the other religions. Despite that, I still do believe in the existence of a God.

Exactly. There is nothing wrong against preaching your religion, but preaching to anyone who isn't willingly hearing it is wrong. You shouldn't be running around downtown holding up "Jesus Is Your Savior" signs. That's hurting Christianity more than helping it.

[Cable]

Wow. I leave this thread and look what happens.

I think I'm in between the ideas being thrown around here. I believe that there is a God, and a Heaven for us to go to, but I also believe that we control our own lives. As Catholics (or maybe Christians too, I'm not sure) we believe that God gave us free will, he doesn't make decisions for us (see: Adam and Eve).

As much as believing there is a God, and Jesus, and Heaven, like I said before, I think that the message of Love is the most important.

It's much simpler than that. It's the ability to steer our lives, our worlds, in every direction we might wish to. Limitations are there for a reasosn, and obstacles in our path is just a means of testing our resolve, thu smaking us stronger. I don't need the power to perform miracles to be 'omnipotent'. I need only look within me, and my ability to make of which situation what I desire.

That's a great point; and to bring God into that, He gave us the free will to choose to steer our life in the direction of Love, or hate, whatever floats your boat. God isn't up there forcing us to do things, but maybe those limitations are God's way of gently pushing us back on the right track.

And one more thing; Dweeber, proof-read your posts, will you.

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

Dweeber, proof-read your posts, will you.

there are better ways of wasting one's time. As long as it's discernible , it's fine.

[Cable]

What was that? I didn't understand any of it.

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

Then again, maybe it's just you. j/k

[[Q]]

I just don't like that, (I might be over-generalizing so correct me if I'm wrong) some people believe that people are bad and sinners by nature. I think that people are good, but are flawed at times (by natural animal instinct) to look out for themselves. I don't like the fact that there are people who look at and take the good traits of people and attribute it to the "greatness of Jesus" and whatnot, like it's not really the people choosing to be good people or something.

[bullsfan009]

If you can't say that Hitler was absolutely wrong, entirely wrong, eternally wrong for the murder of 11 million innocent people...

If you can't say that a man who rapes a woman in the street is absolutely wrong, entirely wrong, eternally wrong...

If you can't say that a KKK member who lynches an African-American is absolutely wrong, entirely wrong, eternally wrong...

...but instead insist that he's maybe just "being true to himself," which is what everyone should try to be...

...then Dweaver I must tell you that you've taken a wrong turn somewhere. To deny the existence of Good & Evil in the world is to be blind.



I respect you as a person, Dweaver, don't doubt that please. I really enjoy talking with you. I want you to see the Truth (not saying I have it or anything). But I cannot, WILL NOT, respect hate-supporting philosophies, or philosophies which cannot condem hate. (same difference) If something isn't against hate, but allows it to go on untouched, then it is for it. Jesus said "If you are not for me, you are against me." I think this is what he meant- if you aren't for love, then you're against it. Whether or not you want to, whether or not you intend to, makes no difference.


"God is Love, and...Love is God. No one's below, no one's above."

"If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." - 1 Corinthians 13:1-13


And what's a greater example of love than that of God? Who gave us life, gives us hope, strength, purpose? Who sacrificed Jesus for us?

Even if you don't believe in God...please, believe in Love. And with Love, there's NO WAY that Hitler's actions can EVER be ok...Hate is never RIGHT!

[Bang]

It seems most here believe that people are good, but they're not. People are evil. Pure evil. Most people live to exploit the poor, the weak, and are slaves to money and greed. Those who are too poor or too weak to do so I guess wouldn't be considered evil but it's not like they really apply to this religious discussion do they? I doubt they care about what is good or evil.

I don't know what was more bullshitty, the Christian argument of bullsfan or the whole Nietzsche like arguement D-weaver said.

As wonderful and liberal D-weaver's doctrine(??) sounds it seems like another self promotion type ideal that can only be enjoyed by the elite. Not like anything can be enjoyed by the poor anyhow. I doubt most of the people in the world, who are probably starving or poor care about such issues. They'll look at the Christian argument and laugh and also laugh at D-weaver's argument. Does a guy who lived his entire life in poverty really think great about himself in his deathbed thinking how great his life was? Is that even possible? In fact, he is more likely to hope there is a heaven because the world he lived was terrible and cruel. Seriously imagine a poor person "knowing there was love inside him and nothing can take it away." Try to console him in such a way and he'll probably get angry at you before he dies.

I believe in God and I am a Christian, but there are times when the argument gets so bullshitty it's annoying. You shouldn't try to force your beliefs into others and try to get others to believe in what you believe by example. I doubt disciples went around getting angry at people with other religions and started attacking their beliefs. Show them why they should believe in you naturally, not through fear or anything like that. Also, there are seriously times when I wonder "will that technique work on converting the person?" Chances are it won't.

This is the problem with religious discussions. People constantly just keep attacking other religions or beliefs when generally none of the "founders" of the belief would have ever condoned such a thing. It's all absolutes in a world where everything is relative.

Corinthians 13 is probably my favorite chapter in the Bible, but it seems that Love isn't really in the minds of most people...

I think most people tend to forget that we live in a world where most of the world basically starves to death and don't have the luxury to think of such things. And yet we somehow like to instill the idea that if you try hard you can achieve anything. BULLSHIT. Sometimes there is no hope. Sometimes there is no light. And it's not because those people didn't try hard enough.

Ok, I have no idea what my point was.

[J@3]

It seems most here believe that people are good, but they're not. People are evil. Pure evil. Most people live to exploit the poor, the weak, and are slaves to money and greed.

Amen part 1. I've always believed this, but of course most other people don't so you get pegged as someone pessimistic or negative for having this view point.

I don't know what was more bullshitty, the Christian argument of bullsfan or the whole Nietzsche like arguement D-weaver said.

Amen part 2.

Yes, I realise the irony.

[Jugs]

oooh the irony.

interesting arguments. Being Catholic, I tend to try my hardest to stay away from it because I'm lazy. Too lazy to go to church, too lazy to pray etc. I'll still have my wedding at a church though.

I just don't like all those extra-baptism thingys i had to do. Reconcilation, Eucharist and Confirmation. I suppose the last 2 are necessary (introduction to Jesus' body and blood and the 'final stage of being a person of God') to make you at least a half-full-blooded Catholic, but I suppose it is another way of trying to convince us to do no evil.

I think religions try to hard to convince people to be loyal and worship it and 'advertize' it, i agree that it should be a choice. Especially Religion In Schools, fuck those old people were boring.

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

It seems most here believe that people are good, but they're not. People are evil. Pure evil. Most people live to exploit the poor, the weak, and are slaves to money and greed.

That is the only reason they become 'evil'. They think everyone else is down the dark pathm so what should the be any different? I have been hearing this comment all my life, and I do believe that it's the most self-deprecating, bullshit-y thing a human can come to believe.

I doubt most of the people in the world, who are probably starving or poor care about such issues. They'll look at the Christian argument and laugh and also laugh at D-weaver's argument.

They will only do so if they have quit. And, unfortunately, quit most people have.

Does a guy who lived his entire life in poverty really think great about himself in his deathbed thinking how great his life was? Is that even possible? In fact, he is more likely to hope there is a heaven because the world he lived was terrible and cruel. Seriously imagine a poor person "knowing there was love inside him and nothing can take it away." Try to console him in such a way and he'll probably get angry at you before he dies.

If that is so, then he has failed. He had nothing to begin with , he made nothing while he lived, and he dies his final moment having just that: Nothing. He has chosen failure, because he did not see past anything society threw at him. He has been an idiot, he realises it, and therefore most likely manufactures the concept of God for comfort, and hope for a better after-life. That was my point all along.

It's all absolutes in a world where everything is relative.

EXACTLY. That is the whole point of my 'doctrine'.

And yet we somehow like to instill the idea that if you try hard you can achieve anything. BULLSHIT. Sometimes there is no hope. Sometimes there is no light. And it's not because those people didn't try hard enough.

You have three ways in life:


1. You fight, and lose.

2. You do not fight, and inevitably lose.

3. You fight, and you win.


I'd rather take the High Road and take my chances with number 3. It's only a 33% chance max, but it's better than saying 'it's all bullshit, I don't give a rat's ass, I won't let life beat me, I'll do whatever it takes to get my way... blah... blah...'. This is the way of those who have forfeited their right to become something great. This is teh way of the true idiot, the one who lets himself go to waste.

Amen part 2.

Yes, I realise the irony.

Surprising.

[bullsfan009]

Most people live to exploit the poor, the weak, and are slaves to money and greed. Those who are too poor or too weak to do so I guess wouldn't be considered evil but it's not like they really apply to this religious discussion do they? I doubt they care about what is good or evil.

I think it'd be the other way around- those people who were exploiting others would want to get rid of the notion of good & evil, so they couldn't be guilty. The suffering person holds on to the hope that good will win out in the end so one day they'll have some relief.

I doubt most of the people in the world, who are probably starving or poor care about such issues. They'll look at the Christian argument and laugh and also laugh at D-weaver's argument.

I agree. Too many Christians or other religious people are "all heavenly minded, no earthly good." We are supposed to be HELPING the starving and poor, not theorizing about the nature of God and such. Believe me, I'm not going to be some theologian when I get older. I WANT TO HELP PEOPLE. "What you do unto the least of you, you do unto me."

You shouldn't try to force your beliefs into others and try to get others to believe in what you believe by example. I doubt disciples went around getting angry at people with other religions and started attacking their beliefs. Show them why they should believe in you naturally, not through fear or anything like that. Also, there are seriously times when I wonder "will that technique work on converting the person?" Chances are it won't.

OK, I hear you, good point. I'm not intending to force anything but just to debate. I'm trying to stand up for what I believe to be right, but in the end, everybody's got the right to their own opinions.

This is the problem with religious discussions. People constantly just keep attacking other religions or beliefs when generally none of the "founders" of the belief would have ever condoned such a thing. It's all absolutes in a world where everything is relative.

If it's all relative how does one justify making a stand for something they think is right? And against something they think is wrong?

I think most people tend to forget that we live in a world where most of the world basically starves to death and don't have the luxury to think of such things. And yet we somehow like to instill the idea that if you try hard you can achieve anything. BULLSHIT. Sometimes there is no hope. Sometimes there is no light. And it's not because those people didn't try hard enough.

Yep. http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/publications/sermons/680303.000_Unfulfulled_Dreams.html

[bullsfan009]

Look guys, I think we've said just about all there is to be said here. I vote to walk away in peace, what do you say?

[cyanide]

No, no, this is great discussion... No point in stopping a good debate.

There are kids who only need to hear, "God loves you" from their parents and they just KNOW that there is a God. They just need to crank back their necks and gaze into the lofty blue technicolored skies dotted with fluffy clouds and they just KNOW.

As Jona said, this poses several problems. This is a early "brainwashing" technique to teach kids to be close-minded and to lag in grasping the concept of critical thinking. Critical thinking is so important in social life and surviving in this world. With critical thinking, one will be able to discern the difference between using that, conscience and intuition. There's no way the kids will KNOW if they can't feel or experience it, and even if they do "experience" it, how can we say that it is God they're feeling? If this does happen at an early age and when they grow up and start to see the real world with fresh eyes, their whole perspective on God can change, which is a no-no.

It seems most here believe that people are good, but they're not. People are evil. Pure evil. Most people live to exploit the poor, the weak, and are slaves to money and greed.

I think it's part of the whole idea of survival and competitiveness, but fortunately, some people know how to maintain a balance of leading a life of comfort, happiness, and charity... provided that charity isn't just a feel-good enhancer.

[J@3]

<pihlopase> Jesus Saves
<jbroome> passes to moses, SCOOOOORE

[The Other Kevin]

And the believers go wild!

[bullsfan009]

As Jona said, this poses several problems. This is a early "brainwashing" technique to teach kids to be close-minded and to lag in grasping the concept of critical thinking. Critical thinking is so important in social life and surviving in this world. With critical thinking, one will be able to discern the difference between using that, conscience and intuition. There's no way the kids will KNOW if they can't feel or experience it, and even if they do "experience" it, how can we say that it is God they're feeling? If this does happen at an early age and when they grow up and start to see the real world with fresh eyes, their whole perspective on God can change, which is a no-no.

I agree, of course critical thinking is a great thing that everybody should practice. Absolutely. I was trying to say that for some people, moreso kids b/c of their innocence, they have a feeling of "God," or whatever you want to call it. I can testify to that from personal experience. Some people, "wise men," while philosophizing will rationalize it away when the feeling or whatever was with them all the while, but they were upset at not being able to explain it....I don't know, I'm just sorta rambling about this, it's just my little view, it's no big deal to our greater debate.

But btw I don't think it's wrong to tell kids about God. Everyone will question what they've learned at some point or another, that should be expected and even demanded from them so that they will grow and mature.

But God is not only a concept or idea to be taught or not taught. It's a special source of love for kids to feed off and grow with. It can play a large role in a person's development of a stable foundation for living. That's how it's been for me, I can tell you that.

[mercyless41]

RELIGION: mass control method based mainly in ignorance. the more ignorant or innocent u are the easier u will believe all the unlogic & unrealistic kid tales they tell u.

some smat guy said: "i prefer to not believe in a god that exist than to believe in a god that not exist"

[[Q]]

RELIGION: mass control method based mainly in ignorance. the more ignorant or innocent u are the easier u will believe all the unlogic & unrealistic kid tales they tell u.

i agree.

[bullsfan009]

so basically, God is too good to be true?

[J@3]

Not really, I mean the guy is all vengeful and spiteful

[Nick]

He's too non-existant to be true, more like it.