I Know We Dont Do It In This Forum Yet But...

[air gordon]

ben? ben-ism?

[BIG GREEN]

"¤" is ben....ben-ism is his own collection of unique words...phrases and general ideas about topics such as jordan not being the best player in history and his fan love for darrick martin

[air gordon]

thanks for the information

[bishibashiboy]

mj WAS good..greatest ever?..that's too hard to debate..

BUT..it's not easy to dominate the game for as long as he did from the position of shooting guard..which is why i give him the upper hand when comparisons to other great players that were centers

remember..he was league mvp..AND defensive player of the year in the same year..not bad for a 6'6 swingman if u ask me!

[:digerati:]

remember..he was league mvp..AND defensive player of the year in the same year..not bad for a 6'6 swingman if u ask me!

Also, remember those are opinions.

his fan love for darrick martin

Pffffffft what-ever. That Punk couldn't even make the Nuggets. He's washed up, should retire, stop chasing that errant dream of a ring.

[bishibashiboy]

yep those are my opinions..but u can't take away the fact that no other shooting guard has ever won both those awards in the same year..so i think that should say something in itself

[Andrew]

Well, the original debate in my view was not so much about MJ's ability compared to other players, but why a lot of people dislike him. When it comes to rating and ranking players, we'll never agree and arguments can be made for and against.

[:digerati:]

yep those are my opinions..but u can't take away the fact that no other shooting guard has ever won both those awards in the same year..so i think that should say something in itself

I wasn't talking about your opinions. I was talking about how those awards are opinions.

BUT..it's not easy to dominate the game for as long as he did from the position of shooting guard..which is why i give him the upper hand when comparisons to other great players that were centers

Do you think Allen Iverson dominates the game?

[bishibashiboy]

I wasn't talking about your opinions. I was talking about how those awards are opinions.

whoops...yeah you're right..those are just opinions..but he still must be doing something right to get recognition for those..so u can't take it entirely away

Do you think Allen Iverson dominates the game?

i dont' really think AI dominates...but he's a great player..but not a dominant one..kinda small..can't get the big rebounds..post ups work against him..
but he does have heart though

Well, the original debate in my view was not so much about MJ's ability compared to other players, but why a lot of people dislike him. When it comes to rating and ranking players, we'll never agree and arguments can be made for and against.

True.

[Wall St. Peon]

It's nice how people ignore complete posts of substance to bash the writer because they don't like them...and then when said writer tries to get people back to the topic he's called a hypocrite for 'defending' himself against demeaning comments....

I forgot what this post was about since the majority of it is telling Ben to grow up and stop being a smartass back to smartasses...otherwise I'd post something of substance.........

[Stevan]

It's nice how people ignore complete posts of substance to bash the writer because they don't like them...and then when said writer tries to get people back to the topic he's called a hypocrite for 'defending' himself against demeaning comments....

well this was the apparent demeaning comment:

lol I knew it. More predictable then the shuffle.

I too make massive posts in only a few minutes, while cooking a meal, and working on my jumpshot.

You're right, I apologise. That was way too cruel of me.

And just for the record it wasn't me who originally went off topic.

[:digerati:]

And just for the record it wasn't me who originally went off topic.

True, I went off topic to reply to someone who asked a question. You didn't need to continue it though.

i dont' really think AI dominates...but he's a great player..but not a dominant one..kinda small..can't get the big rebounds..post ups work against him..
but he does have heart though

All right. So you say Iverson doesn't dominate. Then...explain how Jordan "did" or "does".

[.]

Jordan is the best 4 EVER

Wilt was way better, why?:
- Wilt had 45 times 50 or more points in a season - Jordan has 27 career
50+ point games.

- Wilt had 55 rebounds in 1 game - 95-96 Bulls had 55 rebounds in a game only twice

- Wilt avaraged 50.4 points in a season (he played 80 games) - Jordan avaraged 37.1.

- Wilt scored 100 points in a NBA game - Jordan scored 69.

- Wilt had 22.9 career rebounds per game - Rodman had less then 13 in his 1st 10 seasons.

- Wilt has 56 regular season records - Jordan has 4.

my conclusion: Wilt is waaaaaaaay better then MJ ever was

[bishibashiboy]

All right. So you say Iverson doesn't dominate. Then...explain how Jordan "did" or "does".

First off, i don't believe that he dominates anymore..he has his streaks..but u can see that he doesn't have that aura of invincibility that nobody can touch him anymore..

but anyways..i think he was dominant because when he turned it on to another level..nobody could stop him..despite how hard they tried..when he was in his prime at the top of his game he was untouchable..the Bulls went as far as he took them..when it came down to crunch time u knew he would find a way to win the game or the series some way some how..and he did.
Iverson on the other hand..he has shown that he can be slowed by all the injuries that have plagued him..and for all his gifts..defensively..he can't match up against the bigger guards in the league..Jordan could..he didn't have as large a height disadvantage as Iverson...and he was superb on defense and wasn't a liability..as Iverson is when someone say Kobe posts up on him..
ther'es probably more reasons..but I just can't think of any more right now

[:digerati:]

First off, i don't believe that he dominates anymore..he has his streaks..but u can see that he doesn't have that aura of invincibility that nobody can touch him anymore..

He had one that wasn't granted by the refs?

but anyways..i think he was dominant because when he turned it on to another level..nobody could stop him..despite how hard they tried..when he was in his prime at the top of his game he was untouchable..the Bulls went as far as he took them..when it came down to crunch time u knew he would find a way to win the game or the series some way some how..and he did.

Sounds kinda like...Iverson.

Iverson on the other hand..he has shown that he can be slowed by all the injuries that have plagued him

Darn, unlike Jordan who battled through a body that shouldn't be standing. Wait, that was Iverson, Jordan got over a small cold.

and for all his gifts..defensively..he can't match up against the bigger guards in the league.

That's why he guards and is played by Point Guards.

Jordan could

That's why he guarded Point Guards?

he didn't have as large a height disadvantage as Iverson...and he was superb on defense and wasn't a liability..as Iverson is when someone say Kobe posts up on him..

Kobe doesn't post up on Iverson. He posts up on Snow or McKie.

ther'es probably more reasons..but I just can't think of any more right now

Nah. There are none. Iverson dominates just as much if not more so than Jordan. He's 5-11 and 155lbs. Yet he still is the best scorer in the league, somehow nearly gets 5rpg and could hand out 10apg easy. Not only that, he fights through nearly everything, and he swallows his own blood so he can continue to dominate.

Then again, Wilt dominated more so than either. So it's kind of a moot point.

[bishibashiboy]

He had one that wasn't granted by the refs?

bleh..not talkin a/b refs..

Darn, unlike Jordan who battled through a body that shouldn't be standing. Wait, that was Iverson, Jordan got over a small cold.

i have respect that Iverson battles thru pain..but let's face it..he's going to break down eventually..i doubt he will last 15 years..injuries catch up eventually..

That's why he guards and is played by Point Guards.

my point is that if a team wanted to take advantage of shooting over him in the post..they can easily

That's why he guarded Point Guards?

actually MJ guarded SG..PG..and occasionally SF..i agree some were out of position..but that didn't mean he wasn't capable if the need arose..u cant' say the same a/b A.I.

Kobe doesn't post up on Iverson. He posts up on Snow or McKie.

yep i know..but im giving a hypothetical situation here..and if it did happen u kno Iverson had no way in hell of guarding Kobe in the post which limits his dominance defensively

Nah. There are none. Iverson dominates just as much if not more so than Jordan. He's 5-11 and 155lbs. Yet he still is the best scorer in the league, somehow nearly gets 5rpg and could hand out 10apg easy. Not only that, he fights through nearly everything, and he swallows his own blood so he can continue to dominate.

actually..he rarely hands out that many assists...he's just as much of a ballhog as MJ was/is..though i know he is perfectly capable of assists...and in all honesty..he shoots a pathetic percentage from the field..putting up 10/29 nights consistently..most teams wouldn't allow taking that many shots by one player..so im not surprised he can lead the league in scoring..
as for dominance..MJ was dominant because he did it year in year out..for as long as he lasted..if Iverson lasts 15 years and still does what he does with consistency..and actually wins championships..then ill admit he's dominant..

[GloveGuy]

Wilt was way better, why?:
- Wilt had 45 times 50 or more points in a season - Jordan has 27 career
50+ point games.

- Wilt had 55 rebounds in 1 game - 95-96 Bulls had 55 rebounds in a game only twice

- Wilt avaraged 50.4 points in a season (he played 80 games) - Jordan avaraged 37.1.

- Wilt scored 100 points in a NBA game - Jordan scored 69.

- Wilt had 22.9 career rebounds per game - Rodman had less then 13 in his 1st 10 seasons.

- Wilt has 56 regular season records - Jordan has 4.

my conclusion: Wilt is waaaaaaaay better then MJ ever was

Yeah too bad Wilt was like 7 feet and dominated by size. You CANNOT compare these two players skill wise. MJ had unbelievable skills for a swingman. Wilt had unbelievable skills for a center. Wilt dominated because of his size against all the other centers except Bill Russel, where they would battle it out in skill. Michael Jordan never dominated day in and day out because he never had the height advantage. Your statements couldn't be more illogical.

[:digerati:]

my point is that if a team wanted to take advantage of shooting over him in the post..they can easily

He's not gonna be in the post to be shot over.

actually MJ guarded SG..PG..and occasionally SF..i agree some were out of position..but that didn't mean he wasn't capable if the need arose..u cant' say the same a/b A.I.

Nah, Jordan guarded the PG more often than not. Especially in the last three-peat. Pippen on the better of the SF/SG, Harper on the other, Jordan on the PG.

yep i know..but im giving a hypothetical situation here..and if it did happen u kno Iverson had no way in hell of guarding Kobe in the post which limits his dominance defensively

Again, I don't see when Iverson would be down in the post, that situation might happen once in every one hundred games, hardly significant.

actually..he rarely hands out that many assists...he's just as much of a ballhog as MJ was/is..though i know he is perfectly capable of assists...and in all honesty..he shoots a pathetic percentage from the field..putting up 10/29 nights consistently..most teams wouldn't allow taking that many shots by one player..so im not surprised he can lead the league in scoring..

Not his fault his teammates cannot shoot or provide necessary offense until this year. He gets the ball with the clock winding down in most situations and being the major offense is required to shoot. And no minutes per shot he doesn't match Jordan.

as for dominance..MJ was dominant because he did it year in year out..for as long as he lasted..if Iverson lasts 15 years and still does what he does with consistency..and actually wins championships..then ill admit he's dominant..

Championships are a team thing, not an individual player issue.

[bishibashiboy]

Nah, Jordan guarded the PG more often than not. Especially in the last three-peat. Pippen on the better of the SF/SG, Harper on the other, Jordan on the PG.

nah..even so..the first three peat had him on SG..Drexler ring a bell?

Again, I don't see when Iverson would be down in the post, that situation might happen once in every one hundred games, hardly significant.

once every hundred games..errr....ok if u say so...true he wouldn't be in the post that much..but it still happens on switches...1/100 games...so i guess ur saying he'll never be caught in the post once on D this year?

Not his fault his teammates cannot shoot or provide necessary offense until this year. He gets the ball with the clock winding down in most situations and being the major offense is required to shoot. And no minutes per shot he doesn't match Jordan.

maybe not..never checked..but he still takes a shitload of shots and makes a fraction

Championships are a team thing, not an individual player issue.

then i guess u don't need a dominant player to win one..i guess the lakers don't need shaq afterall..

doh well..whatevs..u have your opinion I have mine..we could go back and forth forever..but what's the fun in that?..bottom line..my opinion is that dominant players are the key to dominant teams that win championships..Iverson is none of those..shoot it down all u want..but that's what i think

[:digerati:]

nah..even so..the first three peat had him on SG..Drexler ring a bell?

Not that I remember.

once every hundred games..errr....ok if u say so...true he wouldn't be in the post that much..but it still happens on switches...1/100 games...so i guess ur saying he'll never be caught in the post once on D this year?

If he is caught in the post, it won't be significant.

maybe not..never checked..but he still takes a shitload of shots and makes a fraction

Just like every player.

then i guess u don't need a dominant player to win one..i guess the lakers don't need shaq afterall..

No, you don't need a dominant player to win an NBA Championship. You just need a dominant team. The Lackers minus Shaq are clearly not a good team, if the team was better it could still win without him.

doh well..whatevs..u have your opinion I have mine..we could go back and forth forever..but what's the fun in that?

Yeah, the entire point of forums is stupid.

my opinion is that dominant players are the key to dominant teams that win championships..Iverson is none of those..shoot it down all u want..but that's what i think

Iverson is dominant. If he wasn't he wouldn't be still on Philly, he wouldn't have led them to the Finals, etc.

[bishibashiboy]

Not that I remember.

well then too bad..but good selective memory on your part

Just like every player.

nah..reggie shoots ~50%..stockton..50% for his career..kobe 46%...jordan 50%. for his career..A.I. low 40's..u couldn't be more wrong

No, you don't need a dominant player to win an NBA Championship. You just need a dominant team. The Lackers minus Shaq are clearly not a good team, if the team was better it could still win without him.

err..and what normally makes dominant teams that win championshipS?..dominant players..i cant think of one team that one in recent memory that didn't have dominance in some position in some way..and im not talking a/b one championship..one is not dominant..im talkin a/b 2+

Yeah, the entire point of forums is stupid.

nah..forums are good..it's just that this discussion will never end..it's not going anywhere and ppl are prolly sick of reading this (including me)..so why continue?..i accept a few of your ideas..but you'll still never completely convince me A.I. is little more than a ballhogging wannabe thug..and i'll never convince u Jordan was dominant..so yay!..how much fun is this...are you having fun??..cuz this is just becoming pointless to me..

Iverson is dominant. If he wasn't he wouldn't be still on Philly, he wouldn't have led them to the Finals, etc.

blah blah blah..Grizzlies never canned Big Country..i guess it was cuz he was so dominant!..Reggie is still on the Pacers..if he wasn't soooooo dominant he wouldn't have led them to the finals and he wouldn't still be with them..wow..i could think of many players that aren't DOMINANT and can lead a team to the finals and not do jack...and never return there again but yet the team keeps them due to potential..wow

I don't see how this is going anywhere..so respond if u must..i probably won't anymore so if u want the last laugh go right ahead

[GloveGuy]

err..and what normally makes dominant teams that win championshipS?..dominant players..i cant think of one team that one in recent memory that didn't have dominance in some position in some way..and im not talking a/b one championship..one is not dominant..im talkin a/b 2+

The Lakers are dominant with Shaq because of his presence. Yes Shaq is a very dominant player but doesn't mean he can win championships by himself. WITHOUT Shaq, Kobe drives to the lane, throws up a brick. Also without Shaq, opponents can drive to the lane more. Instead of having Shaq going up on you, you have Soumaila Salmake or Mark Madsen. But with Shaq, you have team chemistry. Kobe will drive to the lane, and if he's doubled he can dish it off to the big guy. But it if he isn't doubled than Kobe can take it himself and score. Michael Jordan and Shaq are the only two guys that create a presence that impacts their team so much. MJ's presence is mental, while Shaq's is a physical presence. This is how the Lakers are a dominant team. '
The Bulls were dominant because they had so many options. Also they had the best player in the world at the time. MJ's passing was overlooked. Even if it was Bill Wennington, one he got by his defender, he knew that once the opponent's center came up, his teammate would be open. They also had many options. They had their second all-star Scottie Pippen, and their role players, Toni Kukoc, Rodman, Ron Harper, Steve Kerr, Luc Longley, and others. On the defensive end they had three of the best defenders of all time, Rodman, Pippen and Jordan. They had the best rebounder in the league, Rodman. This is what made them sooo dominant. This is what gave them that 72-10 record in 1996.

[bishibashiboy]

haha alright gloveguy..that's good..of course the team is important..

but i still don't believe ¤ when he says the lakers can win a championship minus shaq if their team was "better"..kobe's great..but he ain't shaq and i don't think he is replaceable regardless how many extra bodies u slap on a team

oh u brought up a good point to me..the way MJ made wennington and buechler and some of those jordanaires look good...man that alone makes mj the greatest ever..those guys were as horrible as mj was good