ESPN's Marc Stein's Top Point Guards

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What point guard would you want the most on your team(imagine what they'd be like on this team)

Poll ended at Thu Apr 03, 2003 10:19 am

Jason Kidd, Nets
15
50%
Steve Nash, Mavericks
2
7%
Steve Francis, Rockets
2
7%
Gary Payton, Sonics
9
30%
Baron Davis, Hornets
1
3%
Andre Miller, Clippers
1
3%
 
Total votes : 30

ESPN's Marc Stein's Top Point Guards

Postby GloveGuy on Tue Dec 24, 2002 10:16 am

http://espn.go.com/nba/columns/stein_marc/1481522.html

Q: OK, you ranked the power forwards -- which wasn't bad, except that I would have ranked Kevin Garnett above Dirk Nowitzki because of their defense. But now I have an even tougher question. In what order would you rate these point guards: Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Andre Miller, Steve Francis, Gary Payton and Baron Davis? By the way, in two years I think Stevie Franchise will be the best point guard in the NBA.
Brandon Hammond
Los Angeles, Calif.


No one plays the point better in the NBA than former Cal star Jason Kidd.
A: First of all, let the record show that you left out Sacramento's Mike Bibby and Bobby Jackson ... and Phoenix's Stephon Marbury ... and San Antonio's Tony Parker ... and Utah's John Stockton ... and Milwaukee's Sam Cassell ... and any other QB whose fans will be outraged that their guy wasn't included in this discussion.

Secondly, you're right. This one was tougher. But here goes:

1. Kidd
2. Nash
3. Francis
4. Payton
5. Davis
6. Miller

Breaking it down one by one ...


Kidd: Still can't believe this guy has been traded twice. He's the modern-day Magic, he's shooting a career-best 46 percent from the floor and, well, if the Lakers would have sacrificed Kobe Bryant to get Kidd a couple years ago as Shaquille O'Neal openly requested, who could have argued?


Nash: There will undoubtedly be protest that Nash is this high, but he's the purest point guard out there not named Kidd or Stockton. He keeps everyone in Dallas happy and there are lots of guys there who need the ball. His flaw is durability. Last season, when he finally played all 82 games, there was nothing left for the second round of the playoffs.


Francis: Maybe we need to rank the combo guards separately, so Franchise can get the top billing he deserves. He continues to rebound the ball at a sick pace for a 6-foot-3 lad (6.5 rpg) and keeps growing as a set-up man while scoring at will. Rockettes obviously have something special with Stevie and Yao Ming in tandem.


Payton: Even at 34, you can still make the case that Payton is no worse than No. 2. Reasons we don't: Payton has always been too volatile for our unconditional affection, and he didn't manhandle the rookie-year Parker in the playoffs last spring like everyone expected.


Davis: Another strong and dynamic combo guard but, yes, I'd take Francis first. Philadelphia's Allen Iverson, incidentally, was also omitted from the original question and isn't a bad combo guard, either. Back to Baron, his bad back scares me more than Stevie's migraine history.


Miller: Not playing as well as the Clippers envisioned, but he's still young. So there's still time to get it, in other words.


What do you guys think of this? I'm a bit shocked that he has Nash and Francis above Payton. Payton should be at the top, if not tied with Kidd. It gets me kind of mad when people put Kidd at number one because of his pureness. It gets me mad when people say what a point guard is. In my mind, there isn't one. One team(Sonics) needs a point guard who can score AND dish(Payton). Another(Nets) might need a point who just dishes out the assists(Kidd) because THEY HAVE BETTER SCORERS THAN THE OTHER TEAM. Anyways, I'm just saying that its gets me mad when sports writers put players above others because they are more "pure" at their position.
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Postby Nick on Tue Dec 24, 2002 2:38 pm

Well if i was to pick a point guard it would depend what other players are in the team, but I voted For Andre Miller.

If i was a GM i'd pick dre because he has the right skills that i would want for a point gaurd: Ball handling skills, passing skills, the vision to pick a play, speed and offensive abilty if needed
.
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Postby mkool8 on Tue Dec 24, 2002 2:52 pm

I picked Jason Kidd because, I think right now in the league he is the premiere point guard. And for some reason, whatever team he joins, he makes that team a much better team offensively and defensively.
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Postby Andrew on Tue Dec 24, 2002 2:58 pm

I still think that age is a factor. Yes, Payton can still play excellent basketball at age 34, but guys like Kidd and Nash, who are by no means benchwarmers, have more years left in them, and hence would probably be more appealing to most teams. Because the Glove is on the downside of his career (though still statistically superb) and has fewer years in him than Kidd and Nash, it kind of balances out his game so to speak, and as it's factored in when ranking point guards, his age and approaching "expiry date" see him ranked lower than guys he can easily keep up with on the court...for now. And it's that "for now" that I'm talking about.

But who's to say that Payton can't/won't last for many more years, a la John Stockton? It's just a general assumption that his age will take a heavy toll on his game. If it wasn't an issue, or at least considered an issue, then Marc Stein wouldn't have mentioned it in his analysis.
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Postby TheBob on Wed Dec 25, 2002 4:05 am

Andrew wrote:I still think that age is a factor. Yes, Payton can still play excellent basketball at age 34, but guys like Kidd and Nash, who are by no means benchwarmers, have more years left in them, and hence would probably be more appealing to most teams. Because the Glove is on the downside of his career (though still statistically superb) and has fewer years in him than Kidd and Nash, it kind of balances out his game so to speak, and as it's factored in when ranking point guards, his age and approaching "expiry date" see him ranked lower than guys he can easily keep up with on the court...for now. And it's that "for now" that I'm talking about.



Does this mean that you would rank Ming over Shaq because he has many more years left in him? Because following your logic this would be a pretty obvious choice considering Shaq will probably only play another 2 or 3 years.
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Postby Rens on Wed Dec 25, 2002 4:36 am

I voted Francis. He'd be great on the Raptors, if Vince remains bothered by his legs he can turn into an expensive three point bomber with Francis cutting the lanes. Vince could become kind of like Ray Allen. Alvin Williams teaming with Francis in the backcourt, sharing PG duties.
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Postby Mystery on Wed Dec 25, 2002 4:50 am

i voted for Kidd, he is the best point guard ;)
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Postby GloveGuy on Wed Dec 25, 2002 6:23 am

i voted for Kidd, he is the best point guard

I'd like to hear your reason for Kidd being the best and why Gary Payton or any other player might not be. I'm not saying that GP IS the best but I'd want him on any team more than any other PG. You saying that Jasin Kidd IS the best hasn't been proved yet.
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Postby Rens on Wed Dec 25, 2002 6:41 am

I think the biggest argument for that would be age.
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Postby GloveGuy on Wed Dec 25, 2002 8:28 am

Well what if I were to change my poll question to "What point guard would you most want on your team for a year?"...And I asked him why he thought Jason Kidd was the best. Age has nothing to do with how good you are NOW. Because Kidd is younger than GP, doesn't mean that he is better now. Also, someone has to take into consideration that Kidd's supporting cast is bettter than Payton's. Kidd only has to pass while GP has to do everything. When I thought of this poll question, I imagined what it would be like if Kidd went to the Sonics and GP went to the Nets. And I came to the conclusiont that I'd want GP the most.
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Postby EGarrett on Wed Dec 25, 2002 9:39 am

Age has nothing to do with how good you are NOW. Because Kidd is younger than GP, doesn't mean that he is better now.


Gary Payton's quickness is declining with his age, which is why he had some trouble keeping up with Parker in the playoffs. Other than that, his game has few flaws except for his attitude problem that creates dissension at times within his team.

The only knock about Jason Kidd's game used to be his faulty jump shot. Now he's hitting jumpers left and right. Therefore he has no weaknesses in his game. He has great handles...amazing court vision and passing ability...is arguably the best rebounding guard in the league...one of the best defensive guards in the league...he gets to the basket at will and makes up for his lack of a vertical by being a completely ambidextrous finisher...he steps up in the clutch...he's a leader...he's in the prime of his career...and no one in basketball makes their teammates better than Kidd. They also all seem to love playing with him and work hard on the court to be in position to catch his passes...

With the way he's shooting...the only thing I could say scouting him is that he isn't going to dunk on anybody...but he's such a tricky finisher in the lane that it hardly even matters.

It gets me mad when people say what a point guard is. In my mind, there isn't one. One team(Sonics) needs a point guard who can score AND dish(Payton). Another(Nets) might need a point who just dishes out the assists(Kidd) because THEY HAVE BETTER SCORERS THAN THE OTHER TEAM.


If you've ever played with someone who dribbles the ball up and takes a jump shot without ever looking at you...you'll know why they say that. If you don't expect to get the ball you stop playing with effort...a point guard's job is to get his teammates involved...
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Postby scubilete on Wed Dec 25, 2002 10:31 am

I voted for Gary Payton, for me he's the most complete PG in the league when you are talking about Scoring, Passing, Stealing, etc.

considering Shaq will probably only play another 2 or 3 years.


Correction, Shaq will play more than 5 years, he's not done yet unless he get a cronic injury and I understand he cries a lot about injuries but don't think he's planning on retirement.
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Postby scubilete on Wed Dec 25, 2002 10:47 am

which is why he had some trouble keeping up with Parker in the playoffs


Should I remember you guys that J. Stockton couldn't take Utah to the finals til he was over 35? Maybe Payton Quickness is showing some weakness but I think Payton has shown everyone he's tough being there for so long with consistency. Also, you can't ask him that much when Parker at that time was 19 yo, I believe even Kidd would have trouble trying to keep up with Parker and in few years the same Kidd would get slower and maybe he wouldn't even could face Payton in quickness.
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Postby Andrew on Wed Dec 25, 2002 1:03 pm

Does this mean that you would rank Ming over Shaq because he has many more years left in him? Because following your logic this would be a pretty obvious choice considering Shaq will probably only play another 2 or 3 years.

I don't think I put my point across very well. :) I was suggesting that this is the logic that writers use when they rank players. It's not my logic, because I don't think that it applies to everyone. Certainly, some players are no longer as good as they used to be due to age taking its toll on their bodies. My point was that age is obviously factored in when players are ranked. I didn't say that I agreed with that logic, or that it was my logic, merely that Marc Stein obviously thinks it's a factor, because he mentioned GP's age in his analysis.
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Postby T_McGrady on Tue Dec 31, 2002 11:35 am

1) Kidd- Makes everybody on a team better. Not only does he pass and shoot good, he can also motivate his teammates better than Payton. A player and a half-coach molded into one.

2) Payton- Best on the floor. Objectively the best point guard in the league, but Kidd's ways of connecting with teammates gives him the edge.

3) Miller- Purest point guard you can get.

4) Davis- Excellent at point, with some SG qualities as a plus

I haven't noticed Francis and Nash very much when I had a chance to see them play, so I'm not including them in my list. All I know is that, from what I've heard, they'll be 5th and 6th (not necessarily respectively).
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Postby Clinton on Tue Dec 31, 2002 5:01 pm

Payton- Best on the floor. Objectively the best point guard in the league, but Kidd's ways of connecting with teammates gives him the edge.


No, it's just Kidd's teammates that make him the best point in the league. If Payton was in Jersey, he would be doing just as well, even better. Stephon Marbury could be doing this with that NJ team. He had an injured Kittles, inconsistent Van Horn, no Martin and a shitty bench. Kidd is just lucky to have so many offensive threats on his team.
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