Chicago Bulls Thread

[Moz]

I know Hoiberg wants spacing hence retaining Portis on the floor but he should've brought back Taj when the Celtics got into the penalty... Them over committing on Isaiah Thomas is the reason there's tons of open treys from the Celtics I reckon. Again too many turnovers especially by Rondo...

[air gordon]

They just stunk it up on defense. Pizza guy had his way with Rondo. Take the good wth the bad with Rondo's traffic cone defense. He didn't have a good game on offense, especially the forced shot late

Nice big date with NYK

DRose get booed. Noah gets cheered?

[Andrew]

I reckon they'll both get a decent reception. Heard that there'll be some tributes; a bit of a difference for an organisation that fired Ray Clay for refusing to announce MJ like any other player when he was with the Wizards, and fired Thibs in the most passive-aggressive way possible.

[air gordon]

What's your thoughts on management? I say management since reinsdorf is pretty much hands off

If you can oblige me. Krause Jordan era, Krause post Jordan era, paxson/format era

[Andrew]

It's a mixed bag for all of them, because all eras have seen some good trades and draft choices, but some really frustrating blunders as well. There's also a trend/running theme of clashing with coaches, power struggles, and arrogance from management. Whether it's the "organisations win championships" stuff, Paxson getting into a physical confrontation with Vinny Del Negro, or the way they fired Thibs, they often don't handle their business very well.

The post-Jordan/Krause era, and the latter stages of the Jordan/Krause era probably lead us to underrate Krause a little bit. The guy did make some very shrewd deals to put those championship teams together, and he should get credit for that. Sure, he passed on a few stars in the Draft that the Bulls could've picked (Shawn Kemp, Michael Finley, etc), but he wasn't the only one to do so, and it's not like they had a desperate need for those players at the time. He definitely became too obsessed with the idea of not falling from grace like the Celtics did post-Bird, but ironically the way he handled the situation probably made that inevitable.

When it comes to what he did post-Jordan, trying to rebuild, I'd say his past arrogance caught up to him. He fell victim to the fascination with high school-to-the-pros players that was gripping a lot of teams at the time, and gave up on Elton Brand way too soon. I think there was just too much desperation, and no long-term plan in place. He did the right thing by stepping aside. I'd say he'd definitely lost his touch at that point, and his reputation made him a liability for the team.

As for the current management, I'm once again bothered by the way they handle business at times. I don't think it's a good look, and what goes around comes around. Between that and signings like Ben Wallace, or drafting Tony Snell, I think they've ended up mimicking some of the mistakes Krause made. They've definitely made some good picks though and a couple of decent trades, but I think that they also lack foresight. When it comes to key players that aren't in their long-term plans, they either let them go for nothing (Ben Gordon), or trade them after their value has dropped (Luol Deng), resulting in cents-on-the-dollar trades and protected lottery picks they were never going to get.

It's not that they're completely incompetent, more that they lack foresight, and are often too obsessed with power and having coaches meekly fall into line. They're frustrating to endure at times, but at the same time, you've gotta give them some credit. I think they need to get over themselves a bit, not try to keep coaches on such a short leash, and make some long-term plans.

[air gordon]

yeah i'd have to agree with you on the krause jordan era. i'm not going to fault him for missing on draft picks during then. they constantly picked late in the 1st, he did discover kukoc, and that 89 draft was one of the worst. ill give krause an A

ugh the post jordan era. the only break ill give him is that the CBA changed, basically foiling his plans to throw $$ at a prime FA class. Chandler and Curry "bought" him more time but it was and still remains an unprecedented move to draft 2 high schoolers in the top 5. Grade is Z lol

no doubt the Aldridge and Snell picks were bad but overall Paxson has been an excellent drafter. i will give Pax his props for sterring the franchise back into respectability. i honestly think drafting Butler has saved the team's future. imagine a rebulid without any bankable talent post Rose!

and i do agree the current regime just lacks the balls to make a big move. this Forman-Pax team sound like politicians now. they said they want to get young but they sign rondo and wade. they have put together an anti modern nba team. they said they hold themselves accountable but still have their jobs.

giving the axe to Thibs combined with them not making the playoffs is putting them in a lot of heat with the media and the fans. if they don't make the playoffs this year, Pax and gar should be fired.

all the moves made this season, seems a bit made out of desperation to me. where was this aggressiveness when they were contending?????

ill give Pax 2 grades. B for putting the franchise back on the map. D for the last 2 years

that VDN choking incident is just crazy. only the bulls.

[Andrew]

Yeah, Pax turned things around pretty quickly - at least in terms of making them somewhat relevant and competitive - and before Rose's first injury, it looked like they'd set themselves up to be a top team for a few years. Absolutely need to give credit where it's due. Snell and trading Aldridge definitely stand out as the biggest Draft blunders, but his record is pretty solid apart from that.

Agree that this should be it for them if they miss the Playoffs this season.

[Valor]

Snell and trading Aldridge definitely stand out as the biggest Draft blunders

I'll put Marquis Teague over Draymond Green (Who Thibs wanted, badly) in there, as they did it out of spite just to stick it to Thibs. They did a good job bringing the franchise back from Krause's disastrous mess but since then I reckon they've been too enamored with their own success (and luck...I mean we did get that #1 pick with 1.7% chance).

and yeah, the Del Negro incident is ugly as hell.

Firing Ron Adams to piss Thibs off and then eventually firing Thibs, putting their own guy in and then missing the playoffs (then dumping Rose and Noah as scapegoats) was the last straw for me. They don't deserve to still be in charge. Jerry Reinsdorf just doesn't fire his GMs, unfortunately. Not Krause, not GarPax, and even his White Sox managers he doesn't fire them despite them being shit.

[Andrew]

I forgot about Teague. That definitely belongs on the list, it was an awful pick.

[Valor]

Watching the Bulls-Knicks game right now, I wonder what some of those fans are thinking booing Rose, and then seeing their beloved Rondo look pathetic.

Noah having a typical good Noah game. Rose closing in on a triple double....did I mention Porzingis is destroying anybody that guards him? All this while the Knicks offensive scheme looking confused and ridiculous

Surprising positive - Wade's hot shooting stroke from deep continues.

[Andrew]

In all fairness, this doesn't look like the Rose who was playing for the Bulls the past couple of seasons, or the one from the first few games in the season. He's obviously still capable of doing this, and that was the risk in giving him up, but consistency is still an issue for him.

I'm not in favour of booing Rose myself, but I understand why some fans do. He has said a few things that haven't endeared him to fans in recent years, and booing Knicks players is pretty much tradition. I think Rose should definitely be shown some appreciation, so the team's presentation was nice and the booing isn't entirely fair, but I think #TheReturn alienated some fans, especially when Deng was playing through some bad health and injuries.

Wade's having a fine game.

[Valor]

In all fairness, this doesn't look like the Rose who was playing for the Bulls the past couple of seasons, or the one from the first few games in the season. He's obviously still capable of doing this, and that was the risk in giving him up, but consistency is still an issue for him.

I'm not in favour of booing Rose myself, but I understand why some fans do. He has said a few things that haven't endeared him to fans in recent years, and booing Knicks players is pretty much tradition. I think Rose should definitely be shown some appreciation, so the team's presentation was nice and the booing isn't entirely fair, but I think #TheReturn alienated some fans, especially when Deng was playing through some bad health and injuries.

Wade's having a fine game.

Wade's play is the only reason why we're still in the game right now. Rondo just looks lost, completely missing an open McDermott on the out of bounds play too, you figure he'd want an assist at least.

Yeah agree with the consistency issue, but as I have previously said, I feel like Rose was just working through health issues which he seems to have shaken off starting from last season, so maybe it was too soon to give up on him? I'd take him over Rondo anyday....That and-1 on the left side was sweet as

Noah is dominating in his own way, I'd take him over Lopez anyday too sigh

[Andrew]

That was the line we all went with every year though, that Rose was shaking off the rust and working his way back from his injuries. At some point, you have to start wondering if he's ever going to regain his form on a consistent basis. I think they were taking a gamble either way with him. Maybe they chose wrong, but I understand why they moved on. It might be one of those situations where a split had to happen for both sides to get better. I wish him well.

As far as the fans are concerned, it's kind of the way it goes in sports. He's now the "enemy" (on a hated rival no less), and on top of that, it's fair to say that a lot of fans became frustrated with him and the things he was saying. Even Noah had his head in his hands at media day last season, when Rose was talking about his contract extension. Again, I don't agree with the booing and think he should be shown more appreciation than that (at least before tip off), but everyone is entitled to react as they feel, and he did alienate some fans. I get where it's coming from, I get why those fans feel the way they do.

Rondo's had a couple of decent games with his assists, but overall he's not clicked yet and hasn't been particularly impressive. If he'd been the only major free agent signing this offseason, then I'd be a lot more disappointed. I think Wade is going to give them a few good years, though. Rondo's contract also isn't guaranteed past this season, so they can cut him loose without any problems. Some actual foresight there!

Noah's another tough situation. It seems he wanted out after he got benched last year, so they probably lost him the minute that happened. Given that pairing him up with Gasol had its problems, it makes sense that one of them would come off the bench, and Gasol had easily been the superior player. I'll admit that I lost faith in Noah with his injuries and seemingly evaporating offensive skills (picks and passing aside), and again I'd say it's a situation where you have to gamble. Like Rose, maybe he needed a change of scene to regain his form and revitalise his career. Maybe he just needed to get healthy, but then again, maybe his feet will fail him again as the season wears on. Since he was a free agent and seemed ready to leave, he held the cards anyway.

[Valor]

That was the line we all went with every year though, that Rose was shaking off the rust and working his way back from his injuries. At some point, you have to start wondering if he's ever going to regain his form on a consistent basis. I think they were taking a gamble either way with him. Maybe they chose wrong, but I understand why they moved on. It might be one of those situations where a split had to happen for both sides to get better. I wish him well.

As far as the fans are concerned, it's kind of the way it goes in sports. He's now the "enemy" (on a hated rival no less), and on top of that, it's fair to say that a lot of fans became frustrated with him and the things he was saying. Even Noah had his head in his hands at media day last season, when Rose was talking about his contract extension. Again, I don't agree with the booing and think he should be shown more appreciation than that (at least before tip off), but everyone is entitled to react as they feel, and he did alienate some fans. I get where it's coming from, I get why those fans feel the way they do.

Rondo's had a couple of decent games with his assists, but overall he's not clicked yet and hasn't been particularly impressive. If he'd been the only major free agent signing this offseason, then I'd be a lot more disappointed. I think Wade is going to give them a few good years, though. Rondo's contract also isn't guaranteed past this season, so they can cut him loose without any problems. Some actual foresight there!

Noah's another tough situation. It seems he wanted out after he got benched last year, so they probably lost him the minute that happened. Given that pairing him up with Gasol had its problems, it makes sense that one of them would come off the bench, and Gasol had easily been the superior player. I'll admit that I lost faith in Noah with his injuries and seemingly evaporating offensive skills (picks and passing aside), and again I'd say it's a situation where you have to gamble. Like Rose, maybe he needed a change of scene to regain his form and revitalise his career. Maybe he just needed to get healthy, but then again, maybe his feet will fail him again as the season wears on. Since he was a free agent and seemed ready to leave, he held the cards anyway.

Fair points all round, and yes I agree with some of them but ultimately I still feel like firing Thibs was the domino that led to Noah being benched (plus, getting Gasol was because they couldn't woo Melo despite the serious consideration, so I'd say that's another failure there.), decreased in efficiency, and that led to him being disgruntled enough to say bye bye. So in essence, I'm going to put this all on GarPax for being a bunch of egotistical morons who screwed the franchise over the last three seasons.

On Rose...yeah I was disappointed personally with some of his contract and money talk but I still reckon he wasn't given enough time to properly find form. String of bad luck and we all know how long knee injuries can last before players find form again. Just look at Chris Paul a few years back when he tore his ACL, he's nowhere near the athlete that Rose was/is and it took him two years before he looked like himself again. We just notice it more clearly with Rose since he was that athletic pre-injury and his game relies a lot on that, so when he was working himself back it looked horrendous half the time. It's gonna get worse before it gets better, I reckon.

Moot point now though, wish them all the best and all we can do is see what this current crop can do....I still say fire GarPax and get a new coach, one more established and experienced who actually coaches defense would be great.

Wade looks terrific. I was skeptical about his lack of shooting and age coming in but so far he's proven me wrong. Just about the only one I am happy with atm in the organization though. (Him and McBuckets)

Anyhow, that's my rant over

[air gordon]

Fans are gonna boo no matter what. Who cares lol. I don't want any former player doing well against my own team anyway

The Chris Paul comparison is a poor one. He is miles ahead of rose in skills, fundamentals, smarts, etc. Rose's game is already flawed as it is. Without that athleticism. Yeah

I am on board 100% with moving on from Noah and Rose. Noah would've been good on a hometown short term contact but that was clearly not in his plans. Rose was going to leave after the season anyway.

Kudos to Rose and Noah. They looked good in their revenge game. I was really impressed with how Noah was moving around. Definitely strange to see Rose in the blue and orange.

Not going to overreact on one game though. NYK looked like poo heading into this one.

Taj did have his way with Noah and then put that dreads dude in foul trouble. Those taj expendable comments sound pretty silly right now lol

Niko's awesome offense had to take a seat in the 4th. NYK was killing them on those rolls to the basket.

[Moz]

His reason was it's a southside vs this side or that side of Chicago kind of thing but I can't blame some fans since he said some dumb comments in the past that makes him look like he's an inconsiderate brat... I reckon Jo was still considering the Bulls until the Rose trade. Nice seeing him having some friendly jabs with Butler a couple of times. All along I assumed that his relationship with Jo was tainted once he re-signed and promoted on his role.

Porzingis killed the frontline on this game. He's too big for Taj and too agile for Lopez. I already anticipated that Noah will have a big game since he's always like that against marquee teams though those assists total that Rose had was unexpected (thought he'll just go on tunnel vision scorer mode). Another Hoiberg adjustment again that caused their chances was when he subbed out the hot shooting DWade in the midst of their run... I reckon Mirotic should've played more in this game. Perhaps starters that include a Gibson-Mirotic frontline is not a bad Idea.

[Valor]

The Chris Paul comparison is a poor one. He is miles ahead of rose in skills, fundamentals, smarts, etc. Rose's game is already flawed as it is. Without that athleticism. Yeah

Wasn't comparing the two mate, you're on the same track as me. I was just saying how even with his fundamental skillset it took Paul a few seasons before he looked himself again, so Rose who was dominating with pure athleticism would definitely have needed more time. He's looked pretty explosive since last season so maybe this is the turnaround.

I am on board 100% with moving on from Noah and Rose. Noah would've been good on a hometown short term contact but that was clearly not in his plans. Rose was going to leave after the season anyway.

I still think Noah would've stayed if they didn't trade Rose (and I don't think Rose ever wanted to leave anyways), but thats neither here nor there.

Not going to overreact on one game though. NYK looked like poo heading into this one.

I thought their offense was still pretty crap, dysfunctional, and disorganized. Our D was just terrible.

[air gordon]

Wasn't comparing the two mate, you're on the same track as me. I was just saying how even with his fundamental skillset it took Paul a few seasons before he looked himself again, so Rose who was dominating with pure athleticism would definitely have needed more time. He's looked pretty explosive since last season so maybe this is the turnaround.

k gotcha. maybe Rose still needs time. i'm not a believer. Westbrook had the same injuries, came back sooner, and his game didn't falter. Rose was already talking about a max contract last year. i'm glad it's another team taking on that decision to pay him that or not

I thought their offense was still pretty crap, dysfunctional, and disorganized. Our D was just terrible.

orzingis killed the frontline on this game. He's too big for Taj and too agile for Lopez.

i agree and i blame it on Andrew's comments about the bulls not being challenged yet
makes you wonder why Porzingis only had what.. 4 shot attempts the previous game?

Another Hoiberg adjustment again that caused their chances was when he subbed out the hot shooting DWade in the midst of their run... I reckon Mirotic should've played more in this game. Perhaps starters that include a Gibson-Mirotic frontline is not a bad Idea.

agreed. some of his subs are head scratchers. too bad we don't have Wade and Taj at their younger years. hoiberg could just leave them in

[Andrew]

I think the last three games prove that they have no chance of winning the next ten in a row. (That should even things out, right?)

[air gordon]

Nothing like a game against Orlando to end a losing streak

Early returns on Rondo are not good. Kudos to Hoiberg for benching him last nite. We've seen Wade and Butler fit but so far Rondo not so much.

Wade gets a chance to play with the 2nd unit which is full of floor spacers. When Rondo comes back in bleh

[Andrew]

I suppose he needs to have more of a chance before the final grade and all that, but that non-guaranteed second year is looking like a stroke of genius. Well, maybe not a stroke of genius; an example of actual foresight, at least.

[Moz]

agreed. some of his subs are head scratchers. too bad we don't have Wade and Taj at their younger years. hoiberg could just leave them in

I hated Thibs' rotations but he would've stuck with them because Taj is a teacher's pet and he will not give a flying fuck how old and fragile DWade is...

Early returns on Rondo are not good.

He can't shoot, hence the defenders are sagging off of him in the perimeter, he's one of the main reason why the Bulls turn the ball over a lot, and he holds the ball too long...

A winnable game screwed over by another Hoiberg decision... I don't know if they're resting Wade for the Miami game but he should've brought him back in and sub Rondo out since Butler is doing the PG duties anyway (it's just a 4 point game with still over 6 mins left at that time). He let the Hawks' lead swell up first and then with just 2 minutes remaining decided to bring Wade back in which at that time is pretty pointless already since they have no momentum whatsoever.

They are getting a lot of steals with their wingmen but they badly need some rim protection... Lopez is slow, Taj is too small (or perhaps just too tired because Mirotic stinks nowadays), and the rest of the frontline are meh. John Henson is rotting on the Bucks' bench perhaps he'll come cheap just like MCW (should've packaged with him when they're at it).

[air gordon]

The honeymoon period with Rondo was rather quick huh

Who else has a surplus of big men? Philly, Orlando?

Missed the ATL game. Won't miss tonites game vs miami

[Valor]

k gotcha. maybe Rose still needs time. i'm not a believer. Westbrook had the same injuries, came back sooner, and his game didn't falter. Rose was already talking about a max contract last year. i'm glad it's another team taking on that decision to pay him that or not

Fair enough. I mean if GarPax actually had a legit plan to replace him then yeah I agree, time to cut bait...but they really don't so that's why I've been saying what I've been saying

On other matters, Rondo just sucks, period. I laughed at those who were praising him to the heavens when we acquired him and when he got some assists in the first few games. Dude's pure trash, especially in Hoiberg's system.

[Andrew]

I think Rondo's had too much success and too many seasons of good statistical production to be written off as pure trash, but he hasn't impressed so far, no question.