2018 NBA Random Rant

[NovU]

As the title says, let's rant all we want here.



Embiid has slowly become one of my most disliked players in this league. When he first came into this league, I thought he was just a kid looking for attention with full of confidence. It turns out it's not about being confident or fun but he's just purely a dick. Seems a rivalry between Thunder and 76ers now exists. Their meetings this season were all intense. Sure, I welcome a good rivalry but it all started with Embiid being a dick and won't stop being one. Fuck him.

[Andrew]

Embiid's a great talent with a bright future as long as he stays healthy, but his attitude bugs me as well. Confidence is one thing, but you need to prove yourself a little more before you can big note yourself like that and not have it seem like hot air. Even then, I'm not a big fan of brashness, so he's probably not ever going to be one of my favourites. As long as he doesn't become the next Gilbert Arenas though, it's hard to argue with the results.

I find myself cringing every time a three-pointer goes up these days. I don't want to say that players falling in love with the three has totally ruined the game, but it does lead to some ugly basketball. Sure, it's worth an extra point so the chart says keep launching them, but when a team bricks five or six of them in a row while passing up good looks around the basket, that hardly seems like a winning strategy.

[NovU]

I find myself cringing every time a three-pointer goes up these days. I don't want to say that players falling in love with the three has totally ruined the game, but it does lead to some ugly basketball. Sure, it's worth an extra point so the chart says keep launching them, but when a team bricks five or six of them in a row while passing up good looks around the basket, that hardly seems like a winning strategy.

Makes you wonder what specifically triggered this 3pt madness era.

Would you say, T-Mac/Carter/Iverson/Arenas era of 2000 decade was better or more entertaining? Afaik the league was suffering due to post-Jordan era boredom symptom so changed a scenery to a faster paced games with more possessions, so it resulted in ending hero ball era and brought us this one. Do understand heroes are still uber important but less halfcourt iso plays for those superstars. Another cause for this was teams turning to moneyball ofc.

[shadowgrin]

Zone defense being allowed.
Over time the teams got adept at integrating it into their defensive system, zone clogged the inside. Teams had to adjust in breaking it down with screens, cuts, and shooting, which is now what we see today in abundance.


Also, death of isoball is a myth.
Iso plays increase in the 4th quarter even with teams like the Warriors and Spurs.

It's not the old iso we used to see where the ball is given to a player and rest of his teammates go to the nearest parking lot to give the ballhandler more space, now the teammates position themselves accordingly on the court where the ball handler can pass out to them for the three if needed or still be able to run another play.



This is the common isolation we've been used to seeing.
Ballhandler on the weak side, bigs near the post for the rebound, while the other two teammates position themselves to receive a pass or for a shot...not much off-ball activity...




...especially when everyone else must get the hell out of the way and get them rebounds.







Now, we get to have these.

Not much space compared to the ones above but there's off-ball activity happening or ready to happen while the ballhandler is isolated, like ongoing backdoor action or screens ready to be put up.

[Andrew]

Zone defense and complete elimination of handchecking have been factors. I think there's also an obsession with breaking the sport down to numbers, popularising concepts such as threes always being better because they're worth more than regular field goals. While that is mathematically true, they're also more difficult and lower percentage shots, which means they're not always going to be the best shots to take. Five threes are worth more than five twos, but if you give up open inside looks to brick every single one of those threes on ill-advised attempts, you've forfeited a good chance to score ten points in a failed gamble to score fifteen. It can lead to some ugly basketball at times.

I found the older style of basketball more entertaining, perhaps because there was more variation between teams and it was less of an impromptu three-point shootout. That's not to say there weren't ugly moments, of course, but it felt less like every team was trying for the same strategy. The thing is, the three-point revolution is still relatively new, so we're not even talking about a "way back in the day, blinded by nostalgia goggles" situation. I preferred the brand of basketball that was being played as recently as 2012/2013 to some of the games I watch these days.

[NovU]

It's also true for me that I don't find today's basketball or players as much fun/entertaining to watch than before, especially compared to 90s. But perhaps being a nostalgia is a big factor. Listen to jeffx, his time goes way back and he would praise his times of older era basketball. I guess best era really depends on which era you watched growing up as a kid, as you could have more passion and interests invested following the games rather than as a fully mature person with busy life enjoying the game.

That said, I do not think 3 points era of today is a bad basketball just less entertaining. Perhaps it's a product of over-analysis and changes in rules to promote faster paced ball game.

[Andrew]

Nostalgia is a factor, but as I said, for me it's a relatively recent waning in interest. The lack of variation bores me, and I do find tossing up threes indiscriminately to be ugly, but I'd agree that overall it isn't bad basketball. There are still games I enjoy watching, and moments that bring me out of my seat.

[Dee4Three]

I think a person can have a preference on players/playstyle without being nostalgic. I personally enjoy a lot about todays NBA, but I feel that the competition isn't what it once was. Watching the NBA when Nique was vs MJ in a regular season game, after every basket Nique is pumping his fist, his teammates are clearly taking the game personally and trying to take it to the Bulls. In return, MJ and company are feverishly competing. I just don't see that type of intensity in the NBA anymore, a lot of players seemingly just going through the motions. Maybe it's partially because the money is insane in the game now, below average NBA players are making salaries that have them set for life, which makes them not as hungry in my opinion. The part of the NBA now that bugs me the most is that entitled attitude, not as many hungry players.

That's not saying it's all of them, certain players have that fire. When I watch Lillard, he has that fire. The reluctance to use the post game/mid range game in favor of jacking up three's gives the game less variety. Now, most kids want to be like Curry. You see it when you watch kids in your town playing pickup or in leagues, everything for the most part is a 3. Everything is sizzle with the dribble, and jacking it up. That's the next generation of ball players coming up, so that makes me a little nervous. When it was Jordan/Nique/Drexler/Iverson etc, you had the upcoming players wanting to take shots in between, have more of a repertoire, players that wanted to be tough and wanted to attack.

Again, the NBA isn't all bad. In fact, I like Embiid's fire for the most part. Yes, he tries a little to hard sometimes to talk shit (Sometimes it's poorly done), but overall you can see his competitive nature when he's on the floor. I'd rather have a player like that than one who doesn't show that same emotion, that same hunger.

[Sauru]

I just don't see that type of intensity in the NBA anymore, a lot of players seemingly just going through the motions.

i think a lot of it also has to do with players mentality. most players in the nba right now know they have zero chance to win the title this season. then there is the fact that players today want an easier road. you see this attitude all the way down to the playground where people will sit our 2-3 games until they get a stacked team together. just a different era. this mindset is not exclusive to basketball either, its just how younger people act in todays world.

[Dee4Three]

I just don't see that type of intensity in the NBA anymore, a lot of players seemingly just going through the motions.

i think a lot of it also has to do with players mentality. most players in the nba right now know they have zero chance to win the title this season. then there is the fact that players today want an easier road. you see this attitude all the way down to the playground where people will sit our 2-3 games until they get a stacked team together. just a different era. this mindset is not exclusive to basketball either, its just how younger people act in todays world.

Agreed, and the ridiculous contracts are just the icing on the cake.

[Andrew]

I feel like commentary and analysis in the NBA right now is about the worst it's ever been. I think it's a symptom of a bigger problem, though: the whole "hot take" culture that prefers outlandish statements and pig-headed opinions to more nuanced and well-reasoned thought, because the former is what gets clicks, views, and ratings. The big name writers and talking heads are laughably biased, egotistical, and needlessly provocative, instead of balanced, insightful, and credible. It's a shame more impressionable fans eat it up and treat them as an authority on matters, their words as gospel. Again though, a symptom of a bigger issue.

[NovU]

I get that too. I think it's due to noise marketing. Whoever says more lucrative and outlandish statements, will draw more attention and fans, whether right or wrong. Big farce statements are common and people will follow as long as it sounds cool.

[air gordon]

Embiid has slowly become one of my most disliked players in this league. When he first came into this league, I thought he was just a kid looking for attention with full of confidence. It turns out it's not about being confident or fun but he's just purely a dick. Seems a rivalry between Thunder and 76ers now exists. Their meetings this season were all intense. Sure, I welcome a good rivalry but it all started with Embiid being a dick and won't stop being one. Fuck him.

so what's this guy been doing? i had heard he had done some good natured trolling early in the season against Drummond backed up with a solid game. after that i haven't been following

Zone defense and complete elimination of handchecking have been factors. I think there's also an obsession with breaking the sport down to numbers, popularising concepts such as threes always being better because they're worth more than regular field goals. While that is mathematically true, they're also more difficult and lower percentage shots, which means they're not always going to be the best shots to take. Five threes are worth more than five twos, but if you give up open inside looks to brick every single one of those threes on ill-advised attempts, you've forfeited a good chance to score ten points in a failed gamble to score fifteen. It can lead to some ugly basketball at times.

yeah sure in a literal sense this rings true but really- how often are there open inside looks per game? when's the last game your scenario happened?

ugly b-ball? did anyone call last year's #1 East seeded boston offense ugly? boston was amongst the league leaders in 3pt attempts and made, points from 3pt scoring. and it's the same trend this year for this team

I get that too. I think it's due to noise marketing. Whoever says more lucrative and outlandish statements, will draw more attention and fans, whether right or wrong. Big farce statements are common and people will follow as long as it sounds cool.

any reference to particularly who you are guys are talking about? tbh aside from Zach lowe's work and an occasional dunc'd on & sam amick podcast, i don't follow much of the national coverage so i'm not in the know

honestly was '98 bulls vs jazz "pretty" basketball?

[NovU]

any reference to particularly who you are guys are talking about? tbh aside from Zach lowe's work and an occasional dunc'd on & sam amick podcast, i don't follow much of the national coverage so i'm not in the know

honestly was '98 bulls vs jazz "pretty" basketball?

Stephen A Smith, Skip Clueless, Nick Wright, Cris, heck even those NBA inside crew are passed as the messengers of today's bball intel/analysts that people blindly learn from. Subversively, this is what really influences today's crowd, greatly, and they'd imitate them and throw around big statements thinking they also sound cool and win the discussion.



98 bulls vs jazz was an entertaining series. pretty ball, can't say. Perhaps Duncan's Dynasty Spurs played pretty ball but people found it boring. I have a feeling people loved Kobe/Iverson's ugly ball so much that it made everyone root for ugly ball to beat pretty ball like the Spurs.

[Andrew]

You've pretty much covered it there, though I'd also throw in Colin Cowherd and Tom Haberstroh.

[Lamrock]

On modern coverage and analysis: I don't know anybody who actually takes what people like Stephen A, Cowherd, Bayless, etc. seriously. They're like the NBA equivalent of Tucker Carlson.

I follow the NBA subreddit, and it is a bit of a cesspool. The median user age is clearly in the teens, and it shows with memes and hot takes making up the vast majority of the content. It's gotten to the point where they have a separate daily thread for actual basketball discussion.. There's the drawback to the league's wise strategy of catering to a younger audience: kids are the core fan base now.

Some of you might remember when I was a teenager and had just discovered advanced stats. Despite being obsessed with the NBA, I had no understanding of the game's nuances, and got most of my opinions from hot takes, personal bias and win shares.. Hell, I even put money on the Bucks finishing ahead of Chicago in 2011 because the had just acquired Corey Maggette! I played 2K more than I watched real games. It seems like a lot of today's NBA fans fit that mold.

On TroEl Embiid: He does try a little too hard, and yes, the parallels to Gilbert Arenas are hard to ignore. But the league needs more dicks. There seems to be a big overlap in NBA and professional wrestling fans (not me saying the NBA fixed, which it isn't, like, 75% of the time), and Embiid is a lot like a wrestling figure.

On today's game being ugly due to the amount of threes:

[Andrew]

In regards to Antoine Walker and three-pointers, there certainly were chuckers back in the day, but he was just one player; it's very much in vogue now. As I said, I think it's the lack of variation that I find boring, though a shootout can also be fun to watch. It does get ugly when both teams are ice cold though, and insist on forcing threes anyway because "threes are better than twos"...which is only true as long as they're going in. I find that part of today's game frustrating and sometimes dull, but I can also appreciate it, too.

I do see the opinions and talking points of those aforementioned "analysts" being regurgitated on social media fairly often, so I wouldn't say that absolutely no one takes them seriously. I think a lot of people do see them for what they are, but I've also seen them praised for making "very good points" (when in fact, they have not), and I do think younger, more impressionable fans tend to eat it up, which is unfortunate. Regardless of whether or not people believe it and agree with them, though, I'm still not a fan. It promotes the whole "hot take" culture, feeding into existing biases, and pig-headed close-mindedness, while devaluing nuanced analysis and discussion. Not to get too off-topic, but it's absolutely the same problem with political commentators as well. Like I said, it's a symptom of a bigger problem. I'm not a fan of the style and approach, at the end of the day. Harmful or harmless, it doesn't appeal to me, and I find it grating.

The problem with Joel Embiid and similar personalities, for me at least, is that it's class clown level antics. That type of act doesn't mature or evolve, it just gets more outlandish as long as the person is willing to behave that way, and the audience tends to outgrow it as well. I tend to prefer the class wit to the class clown when it comes to humour and personalities, and don't care much for brashness. At least it seems like he's going to back it up with skill and production though, so credit where it's due.

[NovU]

The way I see it, 3 point heavy league isn't really the core of the problem. But it's the lack of hero ball that bores and put off older gen fans. With zone D in complete effect with 5 second backing down rule, post up heroes are thing of past now. This forced defense to collapse on all penetration/postups which in result, leaves 3 point shooters more open than before. So the shot selections are forced to be largely different from before while shot selections are quite similar amongst almost every teams of today. Even looking at how the rosters are built, is amazingly different. Teams are actually putting 5 same skilled small forwards on the court these days. Back then we had variety all the time in sizes to styles of each players, and each played to their position whereas we call today's game position-less. I also do find today's ball game much more dull than previous era games. But it is what it is. I have to admit Modern COD games are stupid, Counter Strike Source was 100 times more fun.

Even if you think no one takes mainstream TV analysts/entertainers seriously, that is ultimately what molds everyone's perception and impacts how they make arguments. For a lot of people and especially young uns, TV and facebook memes are the core source of basketball intel. Influence can be direct or subversive over course of time. I'm also with Andrew on this one.

No Lamcock, I just don't like dicks as you do.

[shadowgrin]

On today's game being ugly due to the amount of threes:

[ Image ]

That man is a true pioneer in the evolution of the game, on par with the likes of Mikan, Cousy, Wilt, Bill Russell, Oscar Robertson, Kareem, Julius Erving, Bird, Magic, Kobe, Dirk, and Durant.

[Sauru]

The way I see it, 3 point heavy league isn't really the core of the problem. But it's the lack of hero ball that bores and put off older gen fans. :

i feel one of the biggest issues is players constantly jumping ship. the younger generation loves all the player movement while the older fans absolutely hate it

another issue and one thats possibly even bigger is social media. players today freely speak their mind and those opinions are heard by everyone with in minutes. in the past you read the paper and saw highlights on sports center and this shielded the players a lot. when they spoke out it would not reach everyone. i feel the players taking to social media all the time is a major turn off for most older fans.


also the players today are much less relatable to the players of the past. its very clear these guys are all multi millionaires. in the past most of the league came off as work horses with some superstars sprinkled in

[[Q]]

I dunno, even though I am like 10 years older than them, I can appreciate and relate to all the young Lakers insulting each other on Instagram. It's pretty hilarious. Good to see that they're all friends off the court.

[Andrew]

i feel one of the biggest issues is players constantly jumping ship. the younger generation loves all the player movement while the older fans absolutely hate it

Definitely a disconnect there. I guess we remember a time when there were more stars who spent their entire career with one team, or at least a decade or more in one place. With players moving on and in particular forming super teams more often, it's become the norm if that's what you've grown up with.

another issue and one thats possibly even bigger is social media. players today freely speak their mind and those opinions are heard by everyone with in minutes. in the past you read the paper and saw highlights on sports center and this shielded the players a lot. when they spoke out it would not reach everyone. i feel the players taking to social media all the time is a major turn off for most older fans.

That's a fair point. A lot of people, famous or not, aren't at their best when they get on social media and start firing off hot takes. The notion that there's some innate wisdom in not having a filter doesn't help any of us, and anyone with a big following can get their message out to a lot of people very quickly.

I dunno, even though I am like 10 years older than them, I can appreciate and relate to all the young Lakers insulting each other on Instagram. It's pretty hilarious. Good to see that they're all friends off the court.

That's different, though. Banter that's clearly friendly definitely makes them more relateable, and can be fun to watch to unfold.

[[Q]]

Would you prefer that they just "shut up and dribble"?

[Andrew]

Definitely not. There is a risk in it though, because while an NBA player may say something intelligent and admirable - and they are of course entitled to use social media to express their opinions on any matter, if they so wish - they may also say something foolish, ignorant, or arrogant. Or get caught out using a burner account. Freedom of speech and the right to an opinion are not shields from criticism or dissenting thought, and there's nothing inherently wise or admirable in simply speaking your mind without a filter. That comes down to what you're saying, and the rationale behind it.

Players shouldn't shut up and dribble, but social media does grant them an opportunity to look bad. The same goes for any of us, of course; famous people just happen to have a bigger audience, and people interested in what they have to say. It's a risk they're taking, and a factor in how their public image is cultivated.

[Sauru]

Would you prefer that they just "shut up and dribble"?

depends? who is dribbling? javale?