How good would Charles Barkley be in modern-day NBA?

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Re: How good would Charles Barkley be in modern-day NBA?

Postby hova- on Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:21 pm

shadowgrin wrote:To be fair to Shaq his FT% in clutch situations were higher than his season % iirc.


Looking through the stats I also found out that Magic was a turnover machine like other "stars" are nowadays. I always though he separated himself from that being a great passer with a good TO/A ratio. But 4.6 in his worst year ... wow. Which led me to the stat that James Harden had 5.6 TOPG in 2016/17. WTF? Oh and Jason Kidd once had 14 TOs in one game ....

LIES.
Magic's TOV% was similar or even lower compared to Nash and Stockton. Nets Kidd had lower than them three.

Reason why Magic's TOPG looks worse compared to Stockton and Nash is the Showtime Lakers (and even opponents) ran more. More possessions, more plays, more chances of committing turnovers.

Magic's highest APG in a season that also had his worst TOPG, the Lakers had a pace of 103.
None of Nash's Suns team even had more than 96 pace.
Highest pace a team in Kidd's career ever had was 95.
Stockton's worst TOPG Jazz had 98 pace, his two best seasons with 14 APG Jazz had 96 pace.
Harden's madness last season, Rockets had 100 pace. His TOV% was similar to Stockton's TOV% in the latter's best APG season.


Good point. Per game is always a doubtful stat. I just though he was running and still having lots of control and he sure had, but still the system really is turnover prone I guess.
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Re: How good would Charles Barkley be in modern-day NBA?

Postby benji on Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:16 am

Often overlooked about Chuck is that he didn't waste possessions offensively in his prime, he was a Chris Paul type beast, then you factor in that he was a 6-5 PF:
True Shooting Pct
1985-86 NBA .619 (8th)
1986-87 NBA .660 (1st)
1987-88 NBA .665 (1st)
1988-89 NBA .653 (1st)
1989-90 NBA .661 (1st)
1990-91 NBA .635 (4th)
1991-92 NBA .612 (8th)
Career NBA .612 (8th)

Offensive Rebound Pct
1984-85 NBA 12.9 (4th)
1985-86 NBA 13.4 (5th)
1986-87 NBA 16.7 (1st)
1987-88 NBA 14.0 (5th)
1988-89 NBA 14.5 (2nd)
1989-90 NBA 13.4 (4th)
1996-97 NBA 12.9 (7th)
1997-98 NBA 12.9 (8th)
1998-99 NBA 13.7 (8th)
Career NBA 12.5 (15th)

These two factors alone basically allowed him to do this:
Offensive Rating
1987-88 NBA 125.6 (2nd)
1988-89 NBA 127.1 (1st)
1989-90 NBA 127.9 (1st)
1990-91 NBA 122.7 (8th)
1992-93 NBA 120.3 (7th)
Career NBA 119.3 (8th)

Offensive Box Plus/Minus
1985-86 NBA 4.0 (7th)
1986-87 NBA 6.4 (4th)
1987-88 NBA 8.3 (2nd)
1988-89 NBA 8.5 (2nd)
1989-90 NBA 8.0 (3rd)
1990-91 NBA 9.0 (1st)
1991-92 NBA 5.9 (4th)
1992-93 NBA 5.9 (3rd)
1993-94 NBA 4.1 (7th)
1994-95 NBA 4.9 (6th)
Career NBA 5.7 (7th)


His offense was so efficient and yet also prolific (yet not insanely so, he only finished three times in the top ten in usage %) that it allowed his defensive disadvantages not to hold him back from posting such:
Box Plus/Minus
1985-86 NBA 7.9 (2nd)
1986-87 NBA 9.2 (1st)
1987-88 NBA 9.0 (2nd)
1988-89 NBA 9.8 (2nd)
1989-90 NBA 9.8 (2nd)
1990-91 NBA 9.9 (2nd)
1991-92 NBA 7.4 (4th)
1992-93 NBA 8.3 (3rd)
1993-94 NBA 5.7 (7th)
1994-95 NBA 6.4 (4th)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 7.1 (4th)
1998-99 NBA 5.5 (8th)
Career NBA 7.4 (4th)

Value Over Replacement Player
1985-86 NBA 7.3 (2nd)
1986-87 NBA 7.8 (3rd)
1987-88 NBA 8.7 (2nd)
1988-89 NBA 9.2 (2nd)
1989-90 NBA 9.2 (2nd)
1990-91 NBA 7.4 (4th)
1991-92 NBA 6.9 (4th)
1992-93 NBA 7.5 (4th)
1995-96 NBA 5.2 (9th)
Career NBA 93.5 (5th)
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Re: How good would Charles Barkley be in modern-day NBA?

Postby benji on Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:26 am

This was related to why he wound up the top scorer by some margin on the Dream Team, the foreign teams literally had no understanding of how to defend him. (Or David Robinson for what it's worth.) Sure, they were going to get destroyed anyway, but they had experience guarding players with the general profile of a Michael Jordan, Karl Malone, Chris Mullin, etc. even if they couldn't doing anything to those exact players. (Although they did hold Jordan to 45% shooting as most defenses focused on him.) But Barkley was generally a complete enigma and the different rules didn't hinder any part of his game and probably benefited them in some ways. He shot 71% from the floor for example.

Barkley and Robinson did much the same thing to teams in 1996.
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Re: How good would Charles Barkley be in modern-day NBA?

Postby Stress Fracture on Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:59 am

Andrew wrote:As for Magic, I believe he also holds the dubious distinction of having the most turnovers in a single Playoff game, with a mark that's in double digits. I feel you've got to be a great player to notch a record like that. Otherwise, there's no way you've got the ball in your hands that much, or indeed, are staying in the game, after the sixth or seventh turnover. :lol:


I thought Harden beat the record in 2015 with 12 turnovers?
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Re: How good would Charles Barkley be in modern-day NBA?

Postby air gordon on Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:12 am

stop with those fancy stats. those don't count here :lol:
During opening introductions, Jordan Bell made curious gestures with his hands, which he admitted after the game were meant to symbolize rubbing money together. "I wanted to see how cash considerations was doing over there," Bell said.
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Re: How good would Charles Barkley be in modern-day NBA?

Postby Andrew on Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:43 am

Stress Fracture wrote:
Andrew wrote:As for Magic, I believe he also holds the dubious distinction of having the most turnovers in a single Playoff game, with a mark that's in double digits. I feel you've got to be a great player to notch a record like that. Otherwise, there's no way you've got the ball in your hands that much, or indeed, are staying in the game, after the sixth or seventh turnover. :lol:


I thought Harden beat the record in 2015 with 12 turnovers?


He did indeed, and several other players have had 10 turnovers in a Playoff game as well. Double-checking further, Magic's record is specifically for the NBA Finals. Excluding the Finals, Magic's highest number of turnovers in a Playoff game is nine.
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Re: How good would Charles Barkley be in modern-day NBA?

Postby Dee4Three on Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:46 am

Tragic Johnson.
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Re: How good would Charles Barkley be in modern-day NBA?

Postby Andrew on Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:50 am

He did gain that moniker for a while, but now it belongs to Ervin Johnson. Remarkably, someone created a highlight mix for him:

phpBB [video]
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Re: How good would Charles Barkley be in modern-day NBA?

Postby Dee4Three on Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:34 am

Starter on that 95-96 Supersonics team that went to the finals. Not that he was superb that season or playoff run.

In 96-97 he had a breakout year when they won 57 games. Almost 1000 rebounds (11.1 a game) and 2.8 blocks per game.

Never a gifted scorer, that's for sure.
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Re: How good would Charles Barkley be in modern-day NBA?

Postby Andrew on Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:46 am

He was with the Nuggets in 1997. He did an admirable job replacing Mutombo with his blocking and rebounding, though Deke could definitely give you more points.
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Re: How good would Charles Barkley be in modern-day NBA?

Postby Dee4Three on Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:53 am

Andrew wrote:He was with the Nuggets in 1997. He did an admirable job replacing Mutombo with his blocking and rebounding, though Deke could definitely give you more points.


Woops, fact. For some reason I thought he stuck around one more year. Good call.

Dikembe certainly was a better scorer.

I went to New York City last year, it was the same day the United Nations were meeting. I was walking in the direction of Trump Tower (it was with my GF at the time) and we saw this extremely tall slender man walking towards us. As we got closer I realized it was Dikembe, he walked past us and into the Wells Fargo bank.

I'm 6'2", but he made me feel 5'2". That is one tall dude.
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Re: How good would Charles Barkley be in modern-day NBA?

Postby Andrew on Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:27 am

I know what you mean. For the NBA Live 08 community event, EA flew us into New York and took us to the 2007 Draft, putting us up in the same hotel the Draftees were staying at. I got into the elevator, and there was Greg Oden. At 6'3", you're generally used to being one of the tallest people in the room, but I felt like a little kid next to him.
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Re: How good would Charles Barkley be in modern-day NBA?

Postby Dee4Three on Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:28 am

I can imagine.

Did you say anything to him?
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Re: How good would Charles Barkley be in modern-day NBA?

Postby Andrew on Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:05 pm

Just exchanged a polite nod. There were a few other people also riding the elevator when I stepped in.
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Re: How good would Charles Barkley be in modern-day NBA?

Postby shadowgrin on Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:43 pm

Andrew's leg brushed against Oden's knee, the rest is history...
HE'S USING HYPNOSIS!
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Re: How good would Charles Barkley be in modern-day NBA?

Postby benji on Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:22 pm

Andrew wrote:He did gain that moniker for a while, but now it belongs to Ervin Johnson. Remarkably, someone created a highlight mix for him:

phpBB [video]

This is pretty good, but you come at THE KING you best not miss:
phpBB [video]
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Re: How good would Charles Barkley be in modern-day NBA?

Postby benji on Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:36 pm

Ervin Johnson is an interesting player in a couple other ways. He started college at age 22, so he entered the NBA at 26.

He was also quite open about his preference for coming off the bench instead of starting. George Karl openly accused him of trying to get benched many times. I think they reached a compromise at various times about him taking the tip and then coming out at the first opportunity so he could "sub in" at a later point.

This was helped by Karl being a bit early in liking to play a "stretch big" like Sam Perkins or Tim Thomas, so like on the mentioned Sonics team he could take the tip, then sub out for Perkins who was not only 6-9 but 34.

And no, I don't have an obvious answer for why not just start Perkins, use Kemp to take the tip and bring Johnson off the bench like he wanted. Or why they cared so much about the tip in the first place, or why teams do in general. I'm pretty sure I saw Sheed spend almost an entire season never really trying for the tip except against Ben which was more a friendly competition thing. I think part of that may have been that the Pistons wanted to start off defensively anyway.
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Re: How good would Charles Barkley be in modern-day NBA?

Postby Andrew on Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:37 pm

A Fizer mix? Next level stuff, indeed. That's difficult to top.
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Re: How good would Charles Barkley be in modern-day NBA?

Postby shadowgrin on Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:37 pm

Just got goosebumps...
HE'S USING HYPNOSIS!
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Re: How good would Charles Barkley be in modern-day NBA?

Postby benji on Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:38 pm

Speaking of opening tips. Ilguaskas once had some absurd winning % on them, like 95% of opening tips he had won over four seasons or something. I don't know if it kept up.

He would have been a monster if they were still playing with those old rules that required a tip after every basket.

Also, that whole giant 7-3 guy with a great shot thing would have probably helped him dominate too.
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