Rick Pitino 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

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Rick Pitino 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

Postby Dee4Three on Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:43 am

Check out Pitino Full Court Press against the Bulls in 1997.

Mixed results, but I wish teams did this more. I find this video fascinating because you never see teams do this in the NBA, and if they do it's for maybe a possession or so.

Maybe if Parish, Bird, and McHale had walked through the door... it would have worked even better...

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Re: Rick Pitinos 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

Postby shadowgrin on Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:54 am

All I see are handchecks which wouldn't be allowed today.
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Re: Rick Pitinos 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

Postby Dee4Three on Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:57 am

shadowgrin wrote:All I see are handchecks which wouldn't be allowed today.


I see hand checks, but I also see pressure. I see 3 or 4 Celtics defending past half court while the Bulls are inbounding the ball. It's not about just the handchecking, it's about the pressure.

I also don't see just hand checks, I see body checks (As the defender is keeping slight contact with the offensive players body so he knows where he is). They are staying close to the offensive player, it's not all hand checking.
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Re: Rick Pitino 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

Postby shadowgrin on Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:06 am

Th defensive team wouldn't be able to keep up consistent pressure on the offense if they get whistled for handchecks and bodychecks, that's the point.
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Re: Rick Pitino 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

Postby Dee4Three on Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:08 am

shadowgrin wrote:Th defensive team wouldn't be able to keep up consistent pressure on the offense if they get whistled for handchecks and bodychecks, that's the point.


I think with discipline this defense absolutely could work in today's NBA, with less contact to limit the whistles. Full court press is still possible, it's just not utilized often.

So I disagree, I think they could keep up the pressure. However, I think it would cause the team doing the pressure to have to rotate players a bit more in and out of the lineup in order to get breathers.
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Re: Rick Pitino 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

Postby Dee4Three on Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:29 am

Perfect example is at 0:48, where no handchecking or even body checking is happening, just pressure defense which almost causes a turnover, and the Bulls miss on the other end

Also at 1:40, where Jordan throws it away and isn't even being touched by the defender, it's just good pressure.
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Re: Rick Pitino 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

Postby shadowgrin on Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:15 am

0:48, a pass between Longley and Rodman, hardly the ballhandlers you want to have.

1:40, Jordan had no contact but his receivers Randy Brown and Bill Wennington? were.

Full court press would only be successful today against teams with shitty ballhandlers like the Knicks.


Dee4Three wrote:I think with discipline this defense absolutely could work in today's NBA, with less contact to limit the whistles. Full court press is still possible, it's just not utilized often.

You just answered yourself why fullcourt press isn't used often in the NBA, bolded it for you.
Without contact the defenders simply end up being turned into (moving) cones used in dribbling drills or James Harden.

So I disagree, I think they could keep up the pressure. However, I think it would cause the team doing the pressure to have to rotate players a bit more in and out of the lineup in order to get breathers.

Teams won't be able to keep up the pressure. Warriors wouldn't. Cavs couldn't. Thunder couldn't. Even Thibs with his young roster in Minny wouldn't.
You think past NBA coaches haven't thought about using a deep rotation for the fullcourt press? It had mixed results in the past and it's more likely to be less successful now if implemented.
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Re: Rick Pitino 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

Postby Dee4Three on Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:33 am

I said I think it absolutely could work with less contact, so how is that answering my own question? Don't twist what I said Shadowgrin, you know as well as I do that this behavior is garbage.

Did I say coaches didn't think about it? No, I said I think it could work if teams did it more often.

I also stated it was fascinating to see it in an NBA game used that often, and that's why this topic was posted. You said it "More likely" to be unsuccessful now, which means you are open to the possibility that it could work if used more. We don't see it enough, hardly ever, so we wouldn't know.

My opinion is, with the number of athletes in the league.. with the speed.... it could be used more often and work more often. And in regards to ball handlers of today, the pressure and trapping could still cause many issues if used appropriately in my opinion. And wait... have you seen some of the benches in today's NBA? the lack of talent on some of the teams benches? You are telling me that if an athletic, disciplined second unit put the full court press on the other teams second unit, that it wouldn't have a chance of being effective?

I would love to see more of this in the NBA, I would love to see that type of defensive intensity.
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Re: Rick Pitino 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

Postby shadowgrin on Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:50 am

Dee4Three wrote:I said I think it absolutely could work with less contact, so how is that answering my own question? Don't twist what I said Shadowgrin, you know as well as I do that this behavior is garbage.

What's your basis that it would work today other than assumptions and conjectures?


Did I say coaches didn't think about it? No, I said I think it could work if teams did it more often.

I also stated it was fascinating to see it in an NBA game used that often, and that's why this topic was posted. You said it "More likely" to be unsuccessful now, which means you are open to the possibility that it could work if used more.

That's the thing, coaches don't do it more often now because it's suicide, teams might do it few times (Cavs come to mind) since it still has situational uses but not that often because it's shooting yourself in the foot like Pitino did with his Celtics.


We don't see it enough, hardly ever, so we wouldn't know.

Flawed logic, that's like saying you don't know if insecticide is poisonous if you don't drink it.
There's a reason coaches don't set their defensive system for it, a simple eye test is all you need to see that it would fail if you rely often on it now.


My opinion is, with the number of athletes in the league.. with the speed.... it could be used more often and work more often. And in regards to ball handlers of today, the pressure and trapping could still cause many issues if used appropriately in my opinion. And wait... have you seen some of the benches in today's NBA? the lack of talent on some of the teams benches? You are telling me that if an athletic, disciplined second unit put the full court press on the other teams second unit, that it wouldn't have a chance of being effective?

More athletic players of today already have trouble guarding 25 feet of the floor, why would it work now if they have to defend 90 feet of it with limited physical contact allowed?
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Re: Rick Pitino 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

Postby Dee4Three on Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:55 am

You said they would more than likely not be able to. So how is your logic any different? Your basis is no more relevant than mine, stop attempting to be a know it all, you sound silly.

Aww, is someone still bitter about something that happened a few months ago? You need thicker skin my friend, I expect more out of you considering you have been around so long

Anybody else want to make a comment about the video?

I'm just waiting for Batman and Robin to come in here, that way we can have another party like a few months back.
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Re: Rick Pitino 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

Postby shadowgrin on Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:12 am

Dee4Three wrote:You said they would more than likely not be able to. So how is your logic any different? Your basis is no more relevant than mine, stop attempting to be a know it all, you sound silly.

My basis is watching the league for years now and seeing no coach has been stupid enough to do it like Pitino did.
My opinions are based on solid evidence of watching the league and how systems develop and die, no assumptions based on my own opinion which would make it a circle jerk.


Aww, is someone still bitter about something that happened a few months ago? You need thicker skin my friend, I expect more out of you considering you have been around so long

What? I don't even know what shit you on about. You should stop being bitter if you think my replies had anything to do with past topics instead of the current discussion, the irony.
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Re: Rick Pitino 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

Postby Dee4Three on Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:18 am

Shadowgrin, grow up.

And you have no idea if it would or wouldn't work, you are just being a know it all. I'm fine with you having your own opinion on the matter, but don't act like my belief that it could work is not an acceptable belief, or that it's outlandish in any way. That's what makes you a know it all.

Oh, and you started off by saying "all I see is hand checking", there is so much in that video that is not hand checking that could be utilized in todays game defensively. Also, don't act like 0 contact is allowed, players body check eachother all the time in todays NBA (by body check, I mean lean on a player or stand directly next to them with a finger on them to know where they are).

I've been watching the game a long time as well, and we are both entitled to our opinions. But, when you act like a know it all and imply that another person's opinion is silly, you end up coming off like an ass.

Again, I will state. I would love to see teams do this more, I would love to see that defensive intensity, even in short spurts.
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Re: Rick Pitino 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

Postby shadowgrin on Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:12 am

grow up

Says the guy who went off the rails because of his own imagined bitterness about the fuck that happened in the past.


Dee4Three wrote:And you have no idea if it would or wouldn't work, you are just being a know it all. I'm fine with you having your own opinion on the matter, but don't act like my belief that it could work is not an acceptable belief, or that it's outlandish in any way. That's what makes you a know it all.

Never said my opinion was right, all I'm doing is saying my opinion is based on how the league developed in the last 20 years. How could I see your opinion as logical or even acceptable and not outlandish when you can't even answer the basis of your opinion, heck you can't even answer my last question before you went on the rails with whatever bitter thing you still cling to.


Oh, and you started off by saying "all I see is hand checking", there is so much in that video that is not hand checking that could be utilized in todays game defensively. Also, don't act like 0 contact is allowed, players body check eachother all the time in todays NBA (by body check, I mean lean on a player or stand directly next to them with a finger on them to know where they are).

Oh so now you're back to the discussion instead of resorting to a victim complex and personal attacks? Good, now answer my questions about the basis for your opinion on why it would work and why more athletic players of today could easily guard 90 feet when they couldn't even guard 25 feet.


I've been watching the game a long time as well, and we are both entitled to our opinions. But, when you act like a know it all and imply that another person's opinion is silly, you end up coming off like an ass.

Sigh, the classic victim complex of resorting to attack when they can't answer a question.


I would love to see that defensive intensity, even in short spurts.

Teams still do. Cavs did it, shocking resemblance to Phil Jackson's trapping defense, Lue must have picked it up playing under Phil. Warriors when they feel doing it against garbage teams. Thunder too when their players were in suitable position to defend in the opponent's half since the Thunder always crash the boards.
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Re: Rick Pitino 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

Postby Dee4Three on Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:14 am

Shadowgrin, I stated why I believed it could still work. That is my belief, I also stated why I wanted to see it.

You came on here with "all I see are handchecks which wouldn't be allowed today". Which means, you either A. Were not able to see everything that was going on in the video, and maybe you need to watch off the ball more. Or B. You wanted to disagree with me so fast that you just posted a negative reaction as fast as possible. I am going with both A and B.


You are a bitter dude, get off your high horse.
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Re: Rick Pitino 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

Postby shadowgrin on Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:31 am

Posting a criticism of a clip is personal disgreement now? The victim complex is off the charts, even worse than past forum 'tards.

Can't even answer a simple question and just started resorting to attacks because of imagined shit, good to know your love of discussion pal. Keep up the good work. (Y)
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Re: Rick Pitino 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

Postby Dee4Three on Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:34 am

Thanks, keep being an overbearing bully (Unsuccessful one at that) on these forums, and continue being the know it all who knows far from it.

Cheers :applaud:
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Re: Rick Pitino 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

Postby shadowgrin on Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:19 am

Keep on feeling like a bully victim and list all those imagined transgressions so you can bring it up again for no reason whatsoever when your flawed argument is questioned. :applaud: :bowdown2:
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Re: Rick Pitino 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

Postby Dee4Three on Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:22 am

Anybody else want to watch the whole video, and make a comment?

Hoping someone else comes onto this thread.
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Re: Rick Pitino 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

Postby CarolusXCI on Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:12 pm

There were no set plays to free up players. No screens at all. All I saw was random motion from the Bulls with a lot of ill-advised passes. For me it's clear that the full court press wasn't something that was on the scouting report for that game so they didn't know what to do when they faced it. Kukoc even inbounded the ball right beneath the basket a couple of times, which is a big no-no in those situations because it practically eliminates the long pass option. Maybe if this was implemented regularly in the way coach Pitino did there, other coaches would quickly develop counters, which wouldn't be that hard to be honest. Even out of almost completely randomness the Bulls still had some wide open dunks. Let alone the fact that if you defend like that for long stretches during several games, fatigue builds up pretty fast, even for young players.

This reminds me when the Team USA played against some Euro squads years ago. Europeans threw zone defense at the Americans right away. At the beginning offensive players struggled a little bit to figure out stuff (since they were mostly used to play against man-to-man in the NBA), but after some minutes they adjusted and the zone defense wasn't that effective anymore.

Those defensive schemes usually work when you use them out of nowhere during a possession or two, then switch back to the traditional man-to-man defense. Most offensive players find it hard to adjust on the fly without calling a timeout, so when the defense changes from man-to-man to a 2-3 zone from one possession to the other, it confuses some offenses. So it is effective sometimes. Coach Carlisle did that against the Heat in 2011 and it worked. However, if some team played 2-3 zone all the time for example, opposing teams would spread out shooters and bust the defense.

Defensive play calling is pretty big in basketball too.
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Re: Rick Pitino 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

Postby Dee4Three on Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:39 pm

CarolusXCI wrote:There were no set plays to free up players. No screens at all. All I saw was random motion from the Bulls with a lot of ill-advised passes. For me it's clear that the full court press wasn't something that was on the scouting report for that game so they didn't know what to do when they faced it. Kukoc even inbounded the ball right beneath the basket a couple of times, which is a big no-no in those situations because it practically eliminates the long pass option. Maybe if this was implemented regularly in the way coach Pitino did there, other coaches would quickly develop counters, which wouldn't be that hard to be honest. Even out of almost completely randomness the Bulls still had some wide open dunks. Let alone the fact that if you defend like that for long stretches during several games, fatigue builds up pretty fast, even for young players.

This reminds me when the Team USA played against some Euro squads years ago. Europeans threw zone defense at the Americans right away. At the beginning offensive players struggled a little bit to figure out stuff (since they were mostly used to play against man-to-man in the NBA), but after some minutes they adjusted and the zone defense wasn't that effective anymore.

Those defensive schemes usually work when you use them out of nowhere during a possession or two, then switch back to the traditional man-to-man defense. Most offensive players find it hard to adjust on the fly without calling a timeout, so when the defense changes from man-to-man to a 2-3 zone from one possession to the other, it confuses some offenses. So it is effective sometimes. Coach Carlisle did that against the Heat in 2011 and it worked. However, if some team played 2-3 zone all the time for example, opposing teams would spread out shooters and bust the defense.

Defensive play calling is pretty big in basketball too.


Oh totally, I didn't say it could happen all the time. I agree about doing it in spurts, but you don't even see that. I'd like to see that intensity more often.

You will see teams like the Cavs fake a press, like start a little after half court, but not really pressure. The video shows actual pressure, feisty defense.

I'd love to see more of that intensity.
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Re: Rick Pitino 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

Postby Sauru on Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:39 pm

fuck rick pitino.



thats really all i have to add here.
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Re: Rick Pitino 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

Postby Dee4Three on Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:58 pm

Sauru wrote:fuck rick pitino.



thats really all i have to add here.


Yes, fuck Rick Pitino. He failed miserably with the Cs.
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Re: Rick Pitino 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

Postby air gordon on Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:45 am

shadow, you're the aquaman of the nlsc super friends :cool:

how about that young celtics team? it was a good idea to use against the bulls who were without Pippen and surprisingly full of guys that can't handle or pass. Rusty larue sighting!
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Re: Rick Pitino 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

Postby Dee4Three on Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:54 am

air gordon wrote:shadow, you're the aquaman of the nlsc super friends :cool:

how about that young celtics team? it was a good idea to use against the bulls who were without Pippen and surprisingly full of guys that can't handle or pass. Rusty larue sighting!


I love the late 90's C's teams, I stated in another thread that the 96-97 season was one of my all time favorite seasons for the Celtics. They went 15-67, but they fought so hard each night. So many close games were lost.

I agree that it was a good strategy for them in that game. Brings back memories seeing Ron Mercer and Billups in C's uniforms, I always thought Mercer was going to end up a better NBA player, but he ended up having that Courtney Lee demeanor about him. The "I'm cool being just another guy on the wing" vibe. I felt like his skill set was better than Lee, but his lack of effort or want to be a star seemed to make him just another average player.
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Re: Rick Pitino 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

Postby Murat on Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:36 am

legend shadowgrin is back
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this year, again...
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Re: Rick Pitino 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

Postby Dee4Three on Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:44 am

Murat wrote:legend shadowgrin is back


Wow... doesn't take much does it?


For the others looking at this thread, here's another example of Celtics press defense (more recent), but less aggressive. They are playing up slightly over half court, and it is a big part of this 16-1 run.

phpBB [video]
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Re: Rick Pitino 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

Postby benji on Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:59 pm

Dee4Three wrote:Anybody else want to watch the whole video, and make a comment?

Hoping someone else comes onto this thread.

No threes.

The Bulls attempted six in the entire game, three by Jordan. And they always, always break the press in the video by trying to get to the basket on an outlet.

The Celtics almost jack more threes in that video than the Bulls attempted in the entire game. (Walker only one, and it's wide open in the corner, that's a Spurs approved three point attempt Employee #8!)

All those one third of the court passes the Bulls successfully pull off, but then require more passes or dribbles, wouldn't happen, because they'd be within screen/cuts for three point range and that means a shot now days. Especially a team like the Warriors or Rockets or hell, anyone good.

And there's too many bigs who could blitz the middle during the trap, the Bulls never have that player on the court, it's Rodman/Longley/Caffey.

In fact, if you notice, the Bulls have their best success against the trap when they're playing Rodman at center temporarily, even though the Bulls blow every shot or layup that's not Jordan they get them because Rodman can handle and pass. With Kukoc/Jordan/Harper/Rodman they're almost playing a modern multi-position lineup, and it breaks the trap, but the Bulls never want to take a three. Especially since it's the first year back at the longer range and they only have a couple guys with that range in Kerr and Buechler. (Kukoc was still developing it, having played entirely with the shorter line, and erratic.)

It's arguably more of a trap than a real full court press too. Pitino's press at Kentucky and Louisville was usually tight and man-to-man. He couldn't figure out how to do it in the NBA because even in practice the Celtics were breaking it.

The Celtics/Nets video is a back court trap too. The second guy often isn't guarding anyone.

Also a big part of that 16-1 run was Brook Lopez running a play that is best described as "dribble into the defense and immediately pick up your dribble as you let yourself get swarmed then whine for a call."
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Re: Rick Pitino 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

Postby NovU on Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:09 am

It'd be entertaining to see something different like this fullcourt pressure D more regularly. But I am not sure it'd be that effective in today's basketball.

No handchecking, small ball with 4-5 that can shoot 3s, many point-forward players, spacing oriented offense. Perhaps all these things make it easier to counter Fullcourt D especially when prepared.


Besides, players could spend less energy with zone defense by staying put at right places. Why run back and forth fullcourt. Players would hate it imho.
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Re: Rick Pitino 1997 Full Court Press - Vs Bulls

Postby Dee4Three on Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:10 am

NovU wrote:It'd be entertaining to see something different like this fullcourt pressure D more regularly. But I am not sure it'd be that effective in today's basketball.

No handchecking, small ball with 4-5 that can shoot 3s, many point-forward players, spacing oriented offense. Perhaps all these things make it easier to counter Fullcourt D especially when prepared.


Besides, players could spend less energy with zone defense by staying put at right places. Why run back and forth fullcourt. Players would hate it imho.


Agreed that a lot of players would hate it, and agreed that it's an unknown on how well it work. Also, would certainly be entertaining to see it more.
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