Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby Dee4Three on Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:57 pm

NovU wrote:What just happened is mind boggling. Ainge finally fucks fucks really fucks up. This is great to hear but even worse, Dan Gilbert just built a superteam out of thin air plus the pick.

I believe Kyrie next to LBJ boosted his play this past couple years. Kyrie next to Hayward will be a mess, helps neither. Horford/Hayward/Kyrie aren't a big 3 teams will fear. Ainge just turned #1 seed into #5 seed team this offseason. Grats.

Isiah alone is a better player than Kyrie at this stage of their NBA career. This is why addition of Jae Crowder vastly unbalances this trade. Minutes these two are going to replace are gonna be huge for the Cavs. Imagine durable and prime Isaiah and Jae playing in place of erratic Irving and ancient bodies like Frye and Richard Jefferson. Adding to the insult, Brooklyn pick absolutely gang rapes. Is this legal? How?

Making this deal with the biggest rival in same conference, did Ainge lose his mind? He had a good shot, great shot at getting to the Finals for the next couple or few seasons. The thing is the Cavs were only gonna get worse while things were looking up for the Celtics.


....

The Celtics gave up a 29 year old, 5'9" Thomas coming off of a hip injury, for a 25 year old, 6'3" Kyrie Irving. Thomas wasn't going to get max money, as we wouldn't pay a 30+ year old undersized PG who relies on quickness and athleticism that kind of money. Irving gives us more years (If he re-signs in a couple years, which I think he will), and he isn't the same liability on defense. While he's not a great defender, he is quite a bit taller, and what happened to Thomas in the Wizards series wouldn't have happened to Kyrie.

We gave up the BKN pick, but not the LA one. Moving Crowder makes perfect sense, because of the log jam at that position. This will give Brown the opportunity to log more minutes (Which he deserves), and Tatum will see the floor more. Tatum has tremendous upside. Thomas and Hayward will be a mess? I heard the exact same thing about Garnett, Pierce and Allen when they came together, people said egos would get in the way, that it wouldn't work. Well, it did. Gordon Hayward isn't a ball dominant player, Kyrie will have the ball in his hands far more as a Celtic. Not only that, combine those two with Horford who is one of the most unselfish bigs in the league, and it should work out just fine.

I hurt for the loss of IT, because he was all heart. It reminded me of when I would watch Iverson and he would put it all out on the floor. To say however, that the Celtics got raped, is completely false. We received a player 4 years younger, who hasn't even entered his prime, and was a major part of a CLE championship. This move makes sense, but it still hurts.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby NovU on Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:00 am

Irving however is a flawed player just as Isaiah, just younger. But I condone upgrading at one position at cost of 2 good players is a good move in general. Again, BUT then I am not so sure what triggered such a savvy GM Danny Ainge to make potentially haunting deal with the conference rival. More buffed up Cavs also mean higher chance at retaining LBJ.

Ainge also obviously overpaid for Irving, probably for his youth. They could have netted Butler at less and he is more of a surefire player than Irving. Acquiring Irving is more expensive and higher risk move.

For these reasons, clear winner from this trade for now is the Cavs.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby [Q] on Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:18 am

I think a lot of people are missing the fact that they already have Brown and just drafted Tatum who at the time was duplicating at the same position. So what some people see as the Celtics giving too much away isn't seen as a negative by Boston because they still have depth at those spots
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby air gordon on Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:31 am

And others are overlooking Crowder's skillet is a rare commodity (and on great contract). That and the brooklyn pick are tremendous value

While Boston has depth it doesn't excuse them for burning the currency they had
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby benji on Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:42 am

MilkTheClock wrote:Isaiah Thomas will be the star of the team once Bron leaves

Thomas is not going to be on the Cavs beyond this season unless LeBron says otherwise.

They are not maxing out a 5-9 30 year old after years of paying the repeater luxury tax.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby Dee4Three on Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:33 am

benji wrote:
MilkTheClock wrote:Isaiah Thomas will be the star of the team once Bron leaves

Thomas is not going to be on the Cavs beyond this season unless LeBron says otherwise.

They are not maxing out a 5-9 30 year old after years of paying the repeater luxury tax.


Agreed. Thomas getting max money at 30/31 years old just won't happen. Him being 5'9", depending so much on quickness and athleticism, his production will already be going down. I doubt he will be considered the best player on a team in 2 or more years.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby I Hate Mondays on Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:49 am

air gordon wrote:And others are overlooking Crowder's skillet is a rare commodity (and on great contract).


+1
When I found out about the package Boston were sending, the first player I've seen as a loss was Crowder over IT (call me mad) because of his energy on both ends of the floor. This past season, I've watched like 15 games where the Celtics were playing but Crowder always impressed me with his defense and smart offense (maybe he was playing under a bright coach but his decision on whether to take a shot or not was brilliant - always looking for an extra pass). There is no point in mentioning that I see Crowder more valuable than that 1st round pick as for now. What I mean by that is that the Cavaliers are obviously contending and not rebuilding. In one or two years from now when Lebron will have left the Kingdom and IT will have signed with a different team, that pick could prove to be more valuable than the other three players combined.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby dwayne2005 on Thu Aug 24, 2017 5:31 am

According to NBA.com, opponents shot 49.9% against Irving and 45.5% against Thomas during the 2016-17 regular season. Also, Isaiah Thomas was getting 12+ free throw attempts per game compared with 4 by Irving. Statistically, they are similar calibre players but Thomas seems to edge out Irving. I don't get to see the game here so I can't make a more direct analysis, but based on numbers the idea that Irving is categorically the better player don't seem to be supported.

He did play better than Thomas during the playoffs but Thomas did play with heart and didn't willingly abandon a team that made frequent finals appearances (despite fans thinking otherwise, burning jerseys) like Irving has done, so those two factors may negate one another.

It was a comparable trade, only the Celtics were so eager to unload him they gave away another player and a draft pick to do it...

Maybe Isaiah won't be as good this year if his injury prevents him from drawing as much contact as he did last season. He may also not play with the same kind of heart knowing the Celtics weren't behind him and it took extra to get him to Cleveland. I can actually imagine Irving being one of those players who in a few years time you'll see averaging 11-12 points per game. I can only hope Thomas continues to get minutes and maybe looks to try and get double figures in assists now he has some other scoring options.

I can only personally hope shit happens to the Celtics and the Cavs win the finals. I'm behind the underdog, the guy who is drafted last and kicked about from team to team because of his height.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby air gordon on Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:37 am

good post. IT's defense or lack thereof seems to be well known but Irving's is similarly bad
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby [Q] on Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:26 am

Dee4Three wrote:
benji wrote:
MilkTheClock wrote:Isaiah Thomas will be the star of the team once Bron leaves

Thomas is not going to be on the Cavs beyond this season unless LeBron says otherwise.

They are not maxing out a 5-9 30 year old after years of paying the repeater luxury tax.


Agreed. Thomas getting max money at 30/31 years old just won't happen. Him being 5'9", depending so much on quickness and athleticism, his production will already be going down. I doubt he will be considered the best player on a team in 2 or more years.

Muggsy Bogues played until his mid 30s but he was more of a facilitator than scorer/superstar so maybe that's what allowed him to continue to play. Earl Boykins was one of the best scorers but lasted until his mid 30s as well.

It's crazy IT just barely became a superstar and people are already talking about the end
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby Dee4Three on Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:35 am

[Q] wrote:
Dee4Three wrote:
benji wrote:
MilkTheClock wrote:Isaiah Thomas will be the star of the team once Bron leaves

Thomas is not going to be on the Cavs beyond this season unless LeBron says otherwise.

They are not maxing out a 5-9 30 year old after years of paying the repeater luxury tax.


Agreed. Thomas getting max money at 30/31 years old just won't happen. Him being 5'9", depending so much on quickness and athleticism, his production will already be going down. I doubt he will be considered the best player on a team in 2 or more years.

Muggsy Bogues played until his mid 30s but he was more of a facilitator than scorer/superstar so maybe that's what allowed him to continue to play. Earl Boykins was one of the best scorers but lasted until his mid 30s as well.

It's crazy IT just barely became a superstar and people are already talking about the end


Boykins never averaged more than 7.2 PPG after turning 31. He was reduced to a bench role and his minutes were cut in half. Bogues never average more than 8 after turning 31, but he was hit by injuries and the majority of the seasons he took a minutes hit.

I'm not saying Thomas won't be good for several more years, I am saying that the side of the trade that factors in age (4 year difference), for similar players, is absolutely relevant. A big factor in this trade was not only the worry about IT's height and injury, but that Irving is 4 years younger.

Who knows, Thomas could still be very good for 4 or 5 more years, and I hope he is... I like him. Hes one of my favorite players in the league.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby air gordon on Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:56 am

[Q] wrote:
Dee4Three wrote:
benji wrote:
MilkTheClock wrote:Isaiah Thomas will be the star of the team once Bron leaves

Thomas is not going to be on the Cavs beyond this season unless LeBron says otherwise.

They are not maxing out a 5-9 30 year old after years of paying the repeater luxury tax.


Agreed. Thomas getting max money at 30/31 years old just won't happen. Him being 5'9", depending so much on quickness and athleticism, his production will already be going down. I doubt he will be considered the best player on a team in 2 or more years.

Muggsy Bogues played until his mid 30s but he was more of a facilitator than scorer/superstar so maybe that's what allowed him to continue to play. Earl Boykins was one of the best scorers but lasted until his mid 30s as well.

It's crazy IT just barely became a superstar and people are already talking about the end

im not sure why there was this big fear of iT getting the max? this past season saw lowry not get the max and only signed for 3years. and he plays a more grounded game and shares a history injury. any smart team will not offer him it, regardless if he's asking for it. sure there's always a chance a dumbass franchise like the bulls would do it but let's just rule them out

IT should have more staying power over bogues and boykins. he can shoot and play off the ball

should be pointed out irving hasn't played closed to a full season in his 6 year career. in fact he's missed over a one-third of the nba season several times and missed some nba finals games
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby Sauru on Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:44 am

NovU wrote:Isiah alone is a better player than Kyrie at this stage of their NBA career.



i get that you are the typical reddit user who likes to jump into the circle jerk whenever the celtics get mentioned but this right here is reaching. its crazy how whenever you post i have to figure out if you are trolling or not
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby Lamrock on Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:21 am

Sauru wrote:reddit

FUCK THE CELTICS

I like the trade for both sides. The Cavs trade Kyrie while still boasting a roster that can make one last finals run. With the Nets pick and Crowder, they set themselves up well for the very strong likelihood that LeBron leaves in the off-season. I could see Kevin Love being traded next. A Crowder/LeBron/Thompson frontcourt is a pretty good look in 2017.

Isaiah Thomas is one of my favorites, but it's hard to shake the feeling that you can't win a chip with a 5'8" starter... Kyrie is also a liability on defense, but he is a far more gifted player, and despite his flaws, is the superstar the Celtics have been looking for all these years. I don't think this team is any better than last year's, due to the downgrades on defense, but moving forward a team with Kyrie, Hayward and lots of young talent gives them the brightest future of any team not named the Warriors.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby benji on Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:46 am

Kevin Pelton did some RPM crunching to update the team projections:
While the two All-Star point guards in this trade have stolen all the headlines, it's the third veteran player -- Crowder -- who actually has the best RPM projection of the three. Why is that? In part, it reflects the defensive shortcomings of both Irving and Thomas, at least during the regular season.

Befitting their status as efficient, high-scoring point guards, Irving and Thomas rate as standout offensive contributors. Thomas' projected plus-5.2 offensive RPM -- based on performance during the past three seasons and an age adjustment -- puts him sixth in the NBA, while Irving (plus-4.2) ranks 13th. Yet both players have defensive RPM projections that put them in the league's bottom 25, with Thomas (minus-3.7) second worst among signed players ahead of only Bojan Bogdanovic of the Indiana Pacers.

By contrast, Crowder's projection is far more balanced. He's one of 12 players in the league who project at least 1.5 points better than league average per 100 possessions on both offense and defense. Nine of those 12 players were All-Stars in 2017, with Nikola Jokic and Ricky Rubio as the other two exceptions.

The balanced projection reflects Crowder's 3-and-D skill set as well as how much of a difference his presence in the lineup has made for Boston. His plus-7.8 net rating on the court in 2016-17 was second best among Celtics behind Amir Johnson (plus-8.0), per NBA.com/Stats. Meanwhile, Boston was outscored by 3.9 points per 100 possessions with Crowder on the bench, the worst mark on the team.

A single season of on-court/off-court data can be fluky, a reason that RPM projections include multiple years of data. But Crowder had a similar, if smaller effect, in 2015-16, when the Celtics' plus-0.8 net rating with him on the bench was worst among regular players. In 2014-15, when Crowder joined the team midseason, Boston had a minus-3.0 net rating with him on the bench, surpassed only by Kelly Olynyk (minus-3.2).

Since Irving and Thomas figure to play similar minutes, the question here was mostly how to redistribute the 30 minutes per game Crowder was projected to play. (Ante Zizic's five minutes per game were also redistributed to centers Aron Baynes and Daniel Theis.) I split them fairly equally between Brown (previously at 20 minutes per game), Tatum (10, much to the dismay of hopeful Celtics fans) and Marcus Morris (25), while also adding second-round pick Semi Ojeleye on the fringes of the rotation.

In RPM's estimation, Boston should get much worse production in place of Crowder. The Celtics were relatively ineffective with Brown on the court last season -- his minus-2.2 on-court net rating was worst among Boston regulars -- while most rookies do little to help their teams win, even ones as highly regarded as Tatum. As a result, Boston's RPM projection tumbles from 49.4 wins on average before the trade to 43.8, putting the Celtics fifth in the Eastern Conference.

Having added Crowder, the Cavaliers are suddenly flush with wing options. I have Iman Shumpert as the odd man out of the rotation for the most part, though. JR Smith also sees less playing time, and Crowder gets far fewer minutes than he was projected for in Boston (30 minutes per game).

Still, siphoning minutes from those Cleveland incumbents to Crowder improves the team's RPM projection from 49.2 wins -- nearly even with but just behind the Celtics before the trade -- to 53.7, tops in the East and within striking distance of the Houston Rockets (55.1) for the second-best projection in the league behind the Golden State Warriors.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby NovU on Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:36 pm

Sauru wrote:
NovU wrote:Isiah alone is a better player than Kyrie at this stage of their NBA career.



i get that you are the typical reddit user who likes to jump into the circle jerk whenever the celtics get mentioned but this right here is reaching. its crazy how whenever you post i have to figure out if you are trolling or not

That's actually my real opinion based on some numbers and memory. You know I always smoked high on IT2 ever since his Kings days while repeatedly claiming Irving's an overrated sidekick, having his game elevated by LBJ presence. I told you this, IT2 is a player to keep, not to trade away, if the purpose was to compete to top the East. You always wanted IT2 traded while I believed he's a keeper for next few seasons while his quickness remains serviceable.

In truth IT2 always has been a better player than Irving ever since day 1 when they came into this league together about 6 years ago. Just because IT2 wasn't utilized as much, it doesn't mean Irving's been better. Coaches and teams overlooked on IT2 because of height but now at this stage, accumulated data assures IT2 was always capable and better. I believe this fact will remain the same for next couple of seasons at least, until Irving reaches his peak and IT2 starts to decline.

To make this short, Irving's been good but NEVER GREAT even with LBJ boost, but Isaiah has been GREAT especially as a first option in Boston and always been pretty good within limited freedom due to teams/coaches overlooking his talent.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby shadowgrin on Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:34 pm

Kyrie's p36 production had been pretty consistent pre-Lebron and with LeBron, with the exception of drop in turnovers because LeBron had the ball and points last season just because Kyrie took more shots.

At the very least Celtics now have a reliable player whether he be the first or second option with each team possession.



Just looked at Thomas' stats and Isaiah is better loool.
Think Ainge pulled the trade because of age, defense (not by much), and small man bias.
At least Kyrie can keep up with the likes of Curry or Wall, unlike Thomas whom the Celtics sent to guard the corner shooter to hide his lack of defense or that Bulls series where no offense Rondo almost made the Celtics his bitch but he got injured.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby I Hate Mondays on Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:16 pm

Reports of a number of fans burning IT's Celtics jersey after the trade. With all due respect to Sauru and Dee4three...wth would you do that Celtics fanbase?
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby Stress Fracture on Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:23 pm

I Hate Mondays wrote:Reports of a number of fans burning IT's Celtics jersey after the trade. With all due respect to Sauru and Dee4three...wth would you do that Celtics fanbase?


Those are just dumbass fans.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby air gordon on Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:06 am

shadowgrin wrote:At the very least Celtics now have a reliable player whether he be the first or second option with each team possession.

wasn't it the Celts problem not having a secondary scoring option? IT was rather impressive as their #1 option as well as his 4th quarter scoring. Hayward should fill the secondary scorer quite well

bradley, amir johnson, olynyk, IT, crowder, Zezec, Brooklyn pick, Fultz for Tatum, marcus morris, bayne, hayward, irving, future 1st?

By contrast, Crowder's projection is far more balanced. He's one of 12 players in the league who project at least 1.5 points better than league average per 100 possessions on both offense and defense. Nine of those 12 players were All-Stars in 2017, with Nikola Jokic and Ricky Rubio as the other two exceptions.

The balanced projection reflects Crowder's 3-and-D skill set as well as how much of a difference his presence in the lineup has made for Boston. His plus-7.8 net rating on the court in 2016-17 was second best among Celtics behind Amir Johnson (plus-8.0), per NBA.com/Stats. Meanwhile, Boston was outscored by 3.9 points per 100 possessions with Crowder on the bench, the worst mark on the team.
In RPM's estimation, Boston should get much worse production in place of Crowder. The Celtics were relatively ineffective with Brown on the court last season -- his minus-2.2 on-court net rating was worst among Boston regulars -- while most rookies do little to help their teams win, even ones as highly regarded as Tatum. As a result, Boston's RPM projection tumbles from 49.4 wins on average before the trade to 43.8, putting the Celtics fifth in the Eastern Conference.

stop with your fancy stats, benji. comprende?
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby Sauru on Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:58 am

Lamrock wrote:
Sauru wrote:reddit

FUCK THE CELTICS

I like the trade for both sides. The Cavs trade Kyrie while still boasting a roster that can make one last finals run. With the Nets pick and Crowder, they set themselves up well for the very strong likelihood that LeBron leaves in the off-season. I could see Kevin Love being traded next. A Crowder/LeBron/Thompson frontcourt is a pretty good look in 2017.

Isaiah Thomas is one of my favorites, but it's hard to shake the feeling that you can't win a chip with a 5'8" starter... Kyrie is also a liability on defense, but he is a far more gifted player, and despite his flaws, is the superstar the Celtics have been looking for all these years. I don't think this team is any better than last year's, due to the downgrades on defense, but moving forward a team with Kyrie, Hayward and lots of young talent gives them the brightest future of any team not named the Warriors.



i also believe this trade is a win for both teams. the celtics are better today than they were yesterday and the cavs added flexibility in a major way here. who fully wins the trade is based on brooklyn. if that picks falls out of the top 5 then the celtics win, top 3 then the cavs probably win. i really wish we got to keep the pick but if its between the pick and keeping jayson i think they made the right move here. a big part of the trade for me is moving on from thomas. i have said multiple times here and pretty much everywhere that i dont like the idea of signing him and i hate the idea of letting him walk. i have also said he is not the guy you want in your line up when trying to win a ring.

with all that said part of me is still wondering if now is the time to build a team? no one is beating the warriors right now. however getting hayward sort of makes us have to go into full win now mode. we cant be landing top free agents and telling them to wait 4-5 seasons while we keep cycling players out for draft picks. when all is said and done though i dont think anyone can disagree that this season just got more exciting
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby Sauru on Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:00 am

I Hate Mondays wrote:Reports of a number of fans burning IT's Celtics jersey after the trade. With all due respect to Sauru and Dee4three...wth would you do that Celtics fanbase?



if you judge a fan base based on its worst members then you would have to concede that no one has a good fan base.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby dwayne2005 on Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:46 am

Also, in the 2016-17 playoffs, while Kyrie done much better than the regular season in defending shots (43.7%, 2.7% below what is expected), Isaiah Thomas broadly doesn't appear to have been the defensive liability he has been made out as (44.7%, 0.8% below what is expected). It may be true that in the crunch, they have a more focused offense on exploiting the vulnerabilities, but if Isaiah was such a liability in the crunch, you go to your bench. It actually sounds like claims of him being horrible on defense are theoretical because of his stature, rather than actual, and probably prone to a perception amplification when someone does score over him. He appears to be average on defense, nothing special.

For the record, I believe when the stats were first kept (I believe 1997, but right now can't get up before 2013 for some reason) Muggsy Bogues had appalling opponent shooting, but that changed the very next season. And Earl Boykins also had passable opponent shooting figures. This whole notion that the pro's are remarkably better shooters than the average amateur are not necessarily true. Open shots does not necessarily mean money. They maybe make 10% more than I'd make when I last played 20 years ago (gave up for personal reasons; that said, in the last shooting I had, I scored 18 straight 3 pointers, if I had better eyesight I may have done better). You hear on all these NBA 2K commentaries that if they get left open, they'll make the shot because they are a pro. Truth is, in shoot arounds they miss a lot of their shots just like average people do. Hand in the face might accomplish something, but not as much as they make out. (The players are pro's mostly because of their height (largely bias) and athleticism, general skills, good coaching and managing and a bit of luck. Maybe there are some more exceptional shooters out there who just don't have the height to raise the bar significantly in terms of lax defense.)

Disclaimer: I don't know how NBA.com tallies this info. Whether they are just bundling all points by his opponent or whether the player actually has to be defending his opponent. I don't know how reliable their data is.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby Andrew on Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:38 am

Sauru wrote:
I Hate Mondays wrote:Reports of a number of fans burning IT's Celtics jersey after the trade. With all due respect to Sauru and Dee4three...wth would you do that Celtics fanbase?



if you judge a fan base based on its worst members then you would have to concede that no one has a good fan base.


Well put.

It is strange, though. I guess it's becoming a custom, but it seems more appropriate when a player spurns their current team to leave via free agency, rather than being traded. And even then, only when the circumstances were somewhat controversial.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby NovU on Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:53 am

Teams don't allow 1 on 1 basketball these days. So individual defensive deficiency can be masked to great degrees in modern era basketball as help out defense has become much easier with illegal defense rule gone. I think that is the case for Irving and especially Isaiah. Teams can single out and attack Isaiah but is it a better use of possession than running the team offense and finding the open man? Does isolation play versus Isaiah(with help D) produce better result?

This is why it's more important to ask team's gain versus loss due to player's defensive ability to live in particular defensive schema rather than individual defensive skillset. You can be Andrew Wiggins who can stop LBJ/KD 1 on 1 but still seriously be a cancerous defensive presence for your team.

Isaiah imho is kinda like Harden. Their offensive ability is vastly more important, most teams are better off changing the style of basketball(to more offense oriented) suit to their game when they're on the floor as commander on offense. Because highly skilled and efficient offensive players are much rarer talent to find than defensive players. But one thing I'd be concerned for the Cavs is that how much of Isaiah's game adds to the already very very successful LBJ led offense, and if his poor defense offset the gain and actually end up hurting the team. Perhaps will Isaiah's excellent efficient offense allow LBJ to lax a bit on offense and spend more energy on D? LBJ's Cavs have been subpar on defensive end for 2 of their last 3 seasons so perhaps that realistically could happen now with Isaiah.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby Sauru on Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:24 pm

Andrew wrote:
Sauru wrote:
I Hate Mondays wrote:Reports of a number of fans burning IT's Celtics jersey after the trade. With all due respect to Sauru and Dee4three...wth would you do that Celtics fanbase?



if you judge a fan base based on its worst members then you would have to concede that no one has a good fan base.


Well put.

It is strange, though. I guess it's becoming a custom, but it seems more appropriate when a player spurns their current team to leave via free agency, rather than being traded. And even then, only when the circumstances were somewhat controversial.



i chalked it up to people wanting attention on the internet
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby I Hate Mondays on Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:07 pm

Sauru wrote:
I Hate Mondays wrote:Reports of a number of fans burning IT's Celtics jersey after the trade. With all due respect to Sauru and Dee4three...wth would you do that Celtics fanbase?



if you judge a fan base based on its worst members then you would have to concede that no one has a good fan base.


The author of the article I've read made it look like there were dozens of fans doing that jersey burning thing, a perfect copycat episode of Lebron's departure in 2010. Now I see there was actually only one guy doing that stupid thing, probably for internet attention as you reckon.
There are idiots everywhere, supporting every team, but in some scenarios (like IT playing two days after his sister passed away), I expect those idiots to hold their tongues. I guess that's impossible in sports.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby Jackal on Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:49 pm

Sauru wrote:i chalked it up to people wanting attention on the internet


This is right. The guy who did the burning even tweeted it out to sports websites/stations. It's so easy to get negative attention and roll with it. See: Kardashians, Trump, Cashmeousside and the new chick who thinks she's black. :|
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby air gordon on Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:52 am

Thank you, sauru for the sensible post. Nice for a change to read a Celtic fan post questioning ainges win now move instead of the usual worshiping

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Interesting points. There are a only a few teams that have the firepower to exploit IT instead of bogdown their offense. Even the wizards with their 2 scorers weren't particularly successful isolating him. Outside of a few post ups by obre.

I'm Interested to see IT worked into the cavs offense as he can work off the ball

Don't forget about the crowder addition,novu. Thompson, jae, lbj, smith, IT lineup should help hide IT
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby I Hate Mondays on Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:26 am

air gordon wrote:
I'm Interested to see IT worked into the cavs offense as he can work off the ball


Yeah, but many of his points came from high PnRs, he won't be getting a lot of those since he will not be the primary ball handler. Moving off the ball will do though. He'll have to just sit in one corner and wait for a bullet pass from Lebron ( that was one of the most used moves by the Kyrie - LBJ combo.)

In other words, Iman Shumpert also requested a trade. I thought it was worth mentioning, but I ain't starting a thread for IS.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby dwayne2005 on Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:45 am

The more I think about it, the more I think Kyrie Irving is the better player overall. I personally think Isaiah would have been better in Boston in 2017-18 than Kyrie in Cleveland, but now the switch has occurred and he has to compete with others like Derrick Rose for minutes, I can see Isaiah's minutes dropping significantly. They probably also want to deflate his ego when it comes to the contract negotiation. And the injury may mean he doesn't get points at the foul line as frequently diminishing his efficiency rating. Looking over the Cavs roster currently, I'd say they're going to be the strongest team in the NBA, so it is good for Isaiah from that perspective.

As much as I detest Boston's decision and hope the Cavs kill the Celtics this season, at least they allowed him to rise to this standard in the first place. I don't think other teams would've given him the minutes.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby Jeffx on Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:27 am

Sauru wrote:i dont think anyone can disagree that this season just got more exciting


Yeah, for everyone outside of New York.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby Andrew on Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:19 pm

Cavs Considering Options Following Isaiah Thomas' Physical

This week's blockbuster trade between the Cleveland Cavaliers and Boston Celtics involving Kyrie Irving for Isaiah Thomas, Jae Crowder, Ante Zizic, and the Brooklyn Nets' 2018 first round pick has moved into an uncertain situation following the physical of Thomas.

Thomas was examined in Cleveland on Friday as he rehabs his season-ending hip injury. Thomas has yet to begin running this offseason.

"It's a very sensitive situation," said one source.

Danny Ainge admitted that Thomas' injury played "some" part in the Celtics making the trade.

Irving is scheduled to take his physical with the Celtics on Saturday.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby NovU on Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:16 pm

Could it be that they think Isaiah is likely not gonna be the same player after the injury, Ainge was willing to include the Nets pick? If this was the case, makes a lot more sense why notoriously savvy GM like Ainge overpaid for Irving when nearly everyone thought the Cavs pulled one off.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby Andrew on Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:21 pm

It does possibly add some further context to the deal. I must admit that I'd forgotten IT had been injured.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby [Q] on Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:59 pm

David Stern called in the veto
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby air gordon on Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:59 am

ba zing

cleveland still can veto it. that would set the nba on fire especially since there is nothing else going on in the league
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby Sauru on Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:16 am

god damn it. lebron just wont let kyrie leave. he heard about the deal and called adam silver and told him to reject it. fucking commissioner lebron strikes again


man i was so hyped about this deal no we gonna be back to rooting for the nets to lose? damn it all
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby Jackal on Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:26 am

This off-season is so entertaining.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby NovU on Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:06 am

What a surprise, IT2 in jeopardy. The Cavs were upgrading at 2 positions on top of most likely a great first round pick. Sounded too good to be true. Back to square one?
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby benji on Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:23 am

Cavs ultimately have to cave and take like a second round pick or something. The deal's too good.

Thomas' hip can't be bad enough that the Celtics were planning on entering the season with him before Irving came around. The Cavs don't play for the regular season anyway, they've replaced a key component of the team in the middle of each of the last three years and still reached the finals, first with the trades to get JR and Shumpert and Mozgov, then swapping coaches, then throwing both Korver and Deron Williams into the rotation last year (remember they also tried to add both Bogut and Larry Sanders) and it doesn't faze them because they have the best player in the world, a superstar sidekick and a roster they remade on the fly to allow them to toss out any kind of look. They've already got Jeff Green, Derrick Rose and Jose Calderon to suck up regular season minutes with.

Thomas has twice had his role change during a season and been fine, when Sacramento finally handed him the keys to the point and then when the Suns shipped him to Boston, and both times he blew up even more. There's no reason to think he can't still come back after two months of rest and immediately start firing shots that have no business going in off handoffs again. Only this time, they're going to be coming from LeBron and Love so like two teams in the entire league are even going to know what to do in theory against it. Neither of which is in the East.

One thing I've seen underplayed in all the stories is that the Celtics had an average D last season, and downgraded it at three spots while barely moving the needle at a fourth. And Horford is going to be in the middle with nothing around him to help anymore. Which he hated about Atlanta.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby NovU on Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:59 am

It doesn't take much for shortie players to completely lose the wheel though. Like Lawson, whether it be due to the injury or just being out of shape, Thomas can become an useless player from a great player overnight imho.

I think Cavs will give this trade a go and take on the risk however. Besides, Crowder and pick come for free. You just can't lose this trade unless the worst of Isaiah happens.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby Andrew on Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:47 am

Just read that the Cavs are asking about Brown and Tatum to sweeten the deal. If I'm the Celtics, I'm definitely balking at that.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby Sauru on Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:46 pm

there is no way they can give up either of those players in the deal without getting back the brooklyn pick

this is the best deal the cavs are going to get for kyrie, they will take it with maybe a 2nd round pick in addition.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby air gordon on Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:09 am

NovU wrote:It doesn't take much for shortie players to completely lose the wheel though. Like Lawson, whether it be due to the injury or just being out of shape, Thomas can become an useless player from a great player overnight imho.

any other examples?

dude gotta get paid before he starts getting lazy anyway
benji wrote:One thing I've seen underplayed in all the stories is that the Celtics had an average D last season, and downgraded it at three spots while barely moving the needle at a fourth. And Horford is going to be in the middle with nothing around him to help anymore. Which he hated about Atlanta.

yes good call. should bayne get more than the token minutes amir was getting? or more minutes at the 4 morris?
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby NovU on Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:40 am

Jameer Nelson? I think quick and explosive first steps of these players are so important that once they lose it, they just aren't valuable anymore. So hearing Isaiah is doubtful to recover 100% without surgery sounds pretty damning especially as the Cavs don't have much time remaining to please LBJ. Isaiah supposedly the second best player taking significant time off won't help the situation and less than 100% even when fully recovered doesn't sound too promising either. I think these are the worries from the Cavs perspective.



As for the Celtics defense, I am interested to see how much of decline will happen. Even though the previous Celtics at individual level possessed stellar defensive ability, seemingly the result was below the expectations(perhaps due to lack of rim protecting presence and chemistry). Thing is that they still have Smart and added Morris. And you often see good defensive teams with one good perimeter and one good interior defender even with defensive loopholes like Curry, Harden, etc. What is unchanged is that the Celtics never had a legit paint protecting big but otherwise defensive downgrade imho might be overstated.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby air gordon on Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:28 am

if its injury derailing him, yeah i agree with that. link to not being 100%/significant quickness and explosiveness lost even after surgery?

i wouldn't use GSW in your example though. KD, Green, Klay. morris aside from guarding lbj he is way out of their class as a interior defender
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby benji on Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:07 pm

Morris is not a good man defender and he's worth even less as help. Amir and Zeller at least gave opponents something to think about, Crowder and Bradley were superior on man defenders and Jerebko was a better version of what they'll get from Morris in that regard. They're getting younger but usually means getting worse defensively.

Jameer Nelson isn't a great example.

The fact is, we've never had a player of this size, even close to using this many possessions at this age. Calvin Murphy is the only thing resembling Thomas and that was 40 years ago. Terrell Brandon used 20% fewer possessions and was at least two inches taller. And simply was never the scorer Thomas has been throughout his career.

Ty Lawson fell into a hole due to his long term alcoholism and he was never even a 20 points per 36 level guy, his high didn't crack 18. He never really had a serious injury either, remember 2011-12 was only a 66 game season. Denver dealt him to Houston because he was already in court ordered rehab due to one DUI and then facing further DUI charges in multiple states.

I mean, the key thing here to remember here is that until Kyrie came across their desk, Boston was intending on playing this season with Thomas. They did not plan on him having surgery and were planning on just extra rest during the season. Cleveland is just trying to sweeten the pot because there's a technical ambiguity they're exploiting. Yes, Thomas is technically in a situation that at some point will require surgery, but it's not immediately necessary. The Cavs don't actually care about this because anything that lowers his value helps them in case LeBron wants him back. The only reason for them to back out is if Thomas can't play this season, which Boston had spent all summer saying he would be doing and obviously were relying on since they didn't know they'd get another all-star point guard worth 25 points a game.

The Cavs also have seen what the value is for superstars in the trade market, and it sucks. Rolling the dice on Thomas making it through the season is better than sitting on Kyrie as he takes the team down with him for a worse package later while Thomas plays just fine for the Celtics who earn the right to get beat to death by the Warriors. The deal also saves them tens of millions in luxury tax, moves up their cap space a year and nets them a near guaranteed lottery pick.

The Cavs real problem is that Boston already cleared out a good chunk of their assets to land Hayward. They aren't going to give them Tatum or Brown AND a future lottery pick. Sending Smart instead of Thomas doesn't work for either team. And beyond that they don't have anything to offer. Unless the Cavs really want to pay Terry Roizer or something, which they don't because they want to do late season veteran replacement shopping. Maybe they can wring a pick swap out or something but a Celtics first rounder isn't going to be worth much for a while. So just trying to get a second rounder is really the only thing on the table here. And Boston knows that, so why give it up? "Worse case" is the deal falling through and they're where they planned to be this season while Kyrie tears apart the Cavs from inside.

The real question is why the league is allowing this farce to go on.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby dwayne2005 on Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:57 am

I amassed all the opponent shooting figures from NBA.com for 11 select star point guards during the regular season and playoffs during 2016-17 and this is how it looks (once again, I don't know anything about this data, how they accrue it):

First column is opponent shooting percentages, second is expected shooting percentages, third is difference (before the first and second column are rounded, thus there may be a tenth of a point differences).

Code: Select all
REGULAR SEASON

1.  John Wall (6'4"):         42.9    44.5    -1.6    (78 games)
2.  Mike Conley (6'1"):      44.6    45.1    -0.5    (69 games)
3.  Kemba Walker (6'1"):      44.7    44.8    -0.1    (79 games)
4.  Stephen Curry (6'3"):      44.4    44.3    +0.0    (79 games)
5.  James Harden (6'5"):      46.1    45.0    +1.0    (81 games)
6.  Isaiah Thomas (5'9"):      45.5    44.3    +1.2    (76 games)
7.  Chris Paul (6'0"):         46.2    44.9    +1.2    (61 games)
8.  Damian Lillard (6'3"):      45.6    44.1    +1.5    (75 games)
9.  Kyle Lowry (6'0"):         47.1    44.5    +2.6    (60 games)
10. Russell Westbrook (6'3"):   48.6    45.2    +3.4    (81 games)
11. Kyrie Irving (6'3"):      49.9    44.7    +5.2    (72 games)

PLAYOFFS

1.  James Harden (6'5"):      35.7    45.3    -9.6    (11 games)
2.  Mike Conley (6'1"):      36.8    46.1    -9.3    (6 games)
3.  Russell Westbrook (6'3"):   40.6    45.9    -5.3    (5 games)
4.  Stephen Curry (6'3"):      39.3    43.8    -4.5    (17 games)
5.  Kyle Lowry (6'0"):         41.9    46.3    -4.5    (8 games)
6.  Kyrie Irving (6'3"):         43.7    46.3    -2.7    (18 games)
7.  John Wall (6'4"):         42.4    44.6    -2.2    (13 games)
8.  Isaiah Thomas (5'9"):      44.7    45.5    -0.8    (15 games)
9.  Damian Lillard (6'3"):      51.2    49.8    +1.3    (4 games)
10. Chris Paul (6'0"):         50.0    46.4    +3.6    (7 games)
N/A Kemba Walker (6'1"):    -


So only 3 of 11 had better than expected opponent shooting percentages, and Isaiah is middle ranked during the season while Kyrie Irving was dead last! While all players, including Kyrie, improved their game in the playoffs, most improved dramatically and Isaiah was on the lower end of that improvement and ranked 8/10 despite opponents scoring less than expected against him.

I'll assume this data means something and that the defensive inadequacies coming from Isaiah's height are completely overblown until someone explains why it is flawed.

EDIT: Earlier I posted that he was getting 12 FTA per game. It is in fact 8. 12 is his per 100 possessions score. I sometimes miss the headers on basketball reference pages... It did seem really high, though, and it should have have set off an alarm that the data was wrong. All I can say to that is I've been getting 3 hours of sleep per day for most of the last 2 weeks and am always occupied, so maybe that's it... Still, it's almost twice as much as Irving per game.
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Re: Kyrie Irving asked the Cavaliers to trade him

Postby NovU on Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:50 am

Mostly adding, not particularly disagreeing to your view, benjo.

Defense is one area that is really tough to project imho. They were among the top 5 defensive teams in 15-16 season, but they were mere mediocre in the following season 16-17. Both seasons were with Isaiah playing the most minutes and biggest defensive contributors being Crowder and Avery. Having so successful defensively one season, it's abnormal their defense almost became league average in the following season even with Crowder and Avery still playing the key part in their defense. Gone were Evan Turner and Sullinger, their minutes most replaced by combination of Horford, Smart, and Amir. Theoretically, you would not expect such a large drop in defense with that change, but it happened. I think this tells us two things related to our discussion: 1) Isaiah could still be part of very successful D even though fans like to highlight his poor defensive ability little too often(proved by 15-16 season), 2) Avery and Crowder are nice defense first players but they are not the game changers unless system calls for it. This is why despite the loss of talent in Celtics defense, I don't think it's to an extent where it is completely unrecoverable. Horford still remains to be a real issue where team effort could make up for the loss, to remain as a mediocre defensive team. But top 5 most likely won't happen as it did for 1 season with Avery and Crowder.

benji wrote:Jameer Nelson isn't a great example.

The fact is, we've never had a player of this size, even close to using this many possessions at this age. Calvin Murphy is the only thing resembling Thomas and that was 40 years ago. Terrell Brandon used 20% fewer possessions and was at least two inches taller. And simply was never the scorer Thomas has been throughout his career.

Ty Lawson fell into a hole due to his long term alcoholism and he was never even a 20 points per 36 level guy, his high didn't crack 18. He never really had a serious injury either, remember 2011-12 was only a 66 game season. Denver dealt him to Houston because he was already in court ordered rehab due to one DUI and then facing further DUI charges in multiple states.

Isn't that why it's worrisome. Effective undersized players becoming sudden minus contributors in supposed prime and capable years(agewise) regardless of the issues, minor or major. In fact, Isaiah could be looking at to become a first undersized guy in a long time(since Stockton?) to play at high level entering the 30s. Or derailed as that's where the concern lies at the moment.
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