Boston Celtics Thread

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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Andrew on Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:24 pm

It's a one day contract. It doesn't impact them at all in the long run.

Technically, he will retire a Celtic, because the signing is still official. It may seem silly, but I think it's an appropriate ceremonial gesture. They came to a parting of the ways because they were rebuilding and he wasn't done playing, but he was always going to be remembered as a Celtic. Granted, I think a homecoming like there was with KG in Minnesota is a better scenario, and I suppose you could say that's a more "legitimate" way of ending your career back with a team, but I have no problem with it. It's a reconciliatory gesture as much as anything, something that gives the people involved a sense of closure that they wanted. Where's the harm?
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Sauru on Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:48 am

NovU wrote:Ungrateful bastards. Ray was a major reason they won a ship, perhaps the most important part in their run.



of course ray was a big part of the celtics championship but it no way was he the most important part however the fans did not break the relationship, he did. if that bitch wants loyalty he needs to give it.
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby air gordon on Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:37 am

Sauru wrote:pretty sure bradley is gone anyway next season and we aint winning it all this year so i would trade bradley and keep the young guys. then again i am still of the mind set to trade thomas instead of paying him so what do i know

Sauru wrote:then again i am still of the mind set to trade thomas instead of paying him so what do i know

Perhaps IT won't get the brinks truck of $ he's asking for?

Sorry for digging this one up btw. Dunc'd podcast did an off season grade pod recently and surprisingly ainge was given a C.....

IT continues to have terrific seasons but will the market create the max he wants? Especially when you consider his size, playing style, and age. Maybe he has some leverage since the Celtics drafted Tate instead of fultz but smart is still around
During opening introductions, Jordan Bell made curious gestures with his hands, which he admitted after the game were meant to symbolize rubbing money together. "I wanted to see how cash considerations was doing over there," Bell said.
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Dee4Three on Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:57 am

I'm hurting about Thomas. But..

Crowder being trades means more time on the floor for Tatum, which I am happy about. I was worried about him riding a little too much pine.

I like Irving, just loved IT.
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby air gordon on Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:11 pm

so who plays the small ball 4 spot that crowder excelled at? especially on defense? maybe more PT for marcus morris or even Semi? tatum would get eaten up on defense playing 4
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Sauru on Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:57 pm

this is one of those deals where i feel both teams win, at least for this season. come next season we will know who won the deal based on what brooklyn does this season. this is also good for kyrie, perfect fit for him imo. outside of the draft pick i dont really about what we gave away. i have been praying they would trade thomas instead of just letting him walk or worse yet paying him. yeah i liked crowder but i aint gonna cry about losing him either. only way i hate this deal is if we do not resign kyrie or if the brooklyn pick is a top 3 pick which is very possible.


something i find funny is how everyone was bitching because ainge didnt want to trade away a pick and then they bitch when he does. having kyrie + hayward is better than having butler + thomas. good chance we still pull a top 5 pick in the next draft anyway. now if horford could just stop being such a bitch
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Jackal on Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:07 pm

Sauru wrote:now if horford could just stop being such a bitch


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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby air gordon on Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:32 am

Sauru wrote:outside of the draft pick i dont really about what we gave away. i have been praying they would trade thomas instead of just letting him walk or worse yet paying him. yeah i liked crowder but i aint gonna cry about losing him either. only way i hate this deal is if we do not resign kyrie or if the brooklyn pick is a top 3 pick which is very possible.


something i find funny is how everyone was bitching because ainge didnt want to trade away a pick and then they bitch when he does. having kyrie + hayward is better than having butler + thomas. good chance we still pull a top 5 pick in the next draft anyway. now if horford could just stop being such a bitch
question is who will have the bigger Homer post. Sauru or dee
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Dee4Three on Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:35 am

air gordon wrote:
Sauru wrote:outside of the draft pick i dont really about what we gave away. i have been praying they would trade thomas instead of just letting him walk or worse yet paying him. yeah i liked crowder but i aint gonna cry about losing him either. only way i hate this deal is if we do not resign kyrie or if the brooklyn pick is a top 3 pick which is very possible.


something i find funny is how everyone was bitching because ainge didnt want to trade away a pick and then they bitch when he does. having kyrie + hayward is better than having butler + thomas. good chance we still pull a top 5 pick in the next draft anyway. now if horford could just stop being such a bitch
question is who will have the bigger Homer post. Sauru or dee


The question was: Who will stereotype first? Looks like it was you.

The trade makes sense from a business perspective. I stated my thoughts in the Kyrie thread.
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby air gordon on Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:21 am

IT is a more efficient scorer and has a longer proven track record as a main scorer. They are similarly bad on defense while Irving has the edge on age but also has injury issues himself

It's fair to say still they are similarly valued

Crowder is a rare multi positional defender who can hit 3s and the brooklyn pick speaks for itself

The cavs gm aced one on the great ainge. That's not stereotyping

But when someone said well we have the other pick or I won't miss crowder as if they grew on trees....
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby benji on Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:51 am

https://twitter.com/Tom_NBA/status/900174983678308352
Danny Ainge: “We traded Avery Bradley.”

The masses: “WHO WILL GUARD KYRIE?”

Ainge: “Hold my non-alcoholic beverage."
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Dee4Three on Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:23 am

air gordon wrote:IT is a more efficient scorer and has a longer proven track record as a main scorer. They are similarly bad on defense while Irving has the edge on age but also has injury issues himself

It's fair to say still they are similarly valued

Crowder is a rare multi positional defender who can hit 3s and the brooklyn pick speaks for itself

The cavs gm aced one on the great ainge. That's not stereotyping

But when someone said well we have the other pick or I won't miss crowder as if they grew on trees....


You are also overvaluing Crowder. A guy that would frustrate us as much as he delighted us, because he would settle for threes/contested 3's so often. I don't see Crowder being anymore important to the Celtics this year as Jaylen Brown will be. Moving him makes sense in my eyes, and it gives more burn to Tatum. Brown has the ability to guard multiple positions as well.

Irving holds more value at this point in comparison to IT. 4 years younger, proven elite scorer, 5 inches taller, big moment experience. I loved IT, but Irving holds more value.
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby air gordon on Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:30 am

Irving is an elite scorer? Based on?!

I'll agree browns development is key but more based on his draft position. Can he guard 4's and hit 3's consistently like Crowder? > 50% corner 3 btw. Crowder is flawed no doubt but the skillet remains valuable

This is a quick agree to disagree if you believe Irvings youth was worth the cost of adding Crowder and the Brooklyn pick
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Dee4Three on Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:58 am

air gordon wrote:Irving is an elite scorer? Based on?!

I'll agree browns development is key but more based on his draft position. Can he guard 4's and hit 3's consistently like Crowder? > 50% corner 3 btw. Crowder is flawed no doubt but the skillet remains valuable

This is a quick agree to disagree if you believe Irvings youth was worth the cost of adding Crowder and the Brooklyn pick


I'm good with agreeing to disagree. Irving youth and upside was worth it, even though I miss IT.

And well, if we are basing anything on draft position, Thomas was the 6th overall pick in the 2011 draft....he average 28.9 last season.

Agree to disagree on Crowder and Irvings value.
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby air gordon on Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:34 am

iriving is an elite scorer. explain

draft position... as in invested a high pick on brown versus buying low on IT who happened to be the last pick in a draft. capeesh?

i'm curious as to how many legit 2 way players there are in the league at crowder's position and share his versatility
KD
LB
PG
Giannis
Harry Barnes
Covington
James Johnson
Draymond Green
Butler
?
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Dee4Three on Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:36 am

air gordon wrote:iriving is an elite scorer. explain

draft position... as in invested a high pick on brown versus buying low on IT who happened to be the last pick in a draft. capeesh?

i'm curious as to how many legit 2 way players there are in the league at crowder's position and share his versatility
KD
LB
PG
Giannis
Harry Barnes
Covington
James Johnson
Draymond Green
Butler
?


capeesh?

The conversation ends with that.
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby air gordon on Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:41 am

that's ok. i shouldnt be surprised you played the butt hurt card (on capeesh? seriously lol) and dodge my post.
Regards
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Dee4Three on Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:44 am

air gordon wrote:that's ok. i shouldnt be surprised you played the butt hurt card (on capeesh? seriously lol) and dodge my post.
Regards


Cheers.
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Dee4Three on Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:46 am

Supposedly the Celtics are looking at these 3 players for the final roster spot:

Andrew Bogut
Thomas Robinson
Tony Allen

Personally, it would be cool to see Tony Allen back in Celtics green. However, it makes the least sense for our roster. I think adding Bogut or Robinson makes more sense, but I lean towards Robinson. He was a beast on the boards in limited minutes with the Lakers, he could give us that spark we need, with the ability to log more minutes if needed than Bogut. I like his tenacity under and around the rim.
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Andrew on Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:10 am

Bogut's the more proven player, but he's also proven to be quite injury prone, so Robinson might be the safer bet in the long run. Allen's the best player of the bunch, but as you noted, he doesn't fill a need like an extra big would.
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Dee4Three on Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:17 am

Andrew wrote:Bogut's the more proven player, but he's also proven to be quite injury prone, so Robinson might be the safer bet in the long run. Allen's the best player of the bunch, but as you noted, he doesn't fill a need like an extra big would.


Exactly, I'm thinking passed this year. Robinson is only 26, and if he catches on (Celtics fan base would love his play style), he could be with us for awhile. Bogut worries me after that injury, and he's 32.
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Sauru on Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:32 am

i have to agree with you here. of the 3 i would take robinson followed by allen. not really interested in having bogut at all personally
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Dee4Three on Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:54 am

I love the idea of starting Jaylen Brown and Baynes. A bench of Rozier, Smart, Tatum and Marcus Morris would be very nice. I think Tatum can contribute right away (especially on the offensive end), defensively he can defend multiple positions.

I like the grit and hustle our bench will bring, with the guys I mentioned above and also Semi.

This is going to be a fun season.
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Dee4Three on Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:51 pm

While yes, losing Hayward hurts. But the season is still promising, and we can still contend.

I said before the season started that I think Jaylen Brown will win most improved player this year, he looks so polished now. He did last night what he was able to do in summer league, against one of the best teams in the league. He will have a lot of big games for us.

Tatum struggled a tad in the first half, but turned it on in the second half. His offensive game is so far ahead of many NBA players as it is, and he can defend multiple positions, he has a lot of length. He put up 14 in his first game ever in the NBA, again against one of the best teams. They announced that Fultz would be coming off the bench to start the season (Not sure if his shoulder has anything to do with it), but I think Ainge made the right move. Tatum will be a stud, and could have an amazing rookie year.

Baynes looked great in 19 minutes. He gives us toughness in the middle that we were sorely lacking last year, and he can hit from mid range. Big men can't play far off of him.

Irving showed what he could do, I think he is a leader. He will get us wins down the stretch in a lot of games.

I'm still really excited about this season, anybody who looks at our roster and thinks that this season is a wash now needs to rethink it. I am not saying that they will beat the Warriors, I am saying that we can absolutely compete with any team in the league on any night. And, if Hayward can be ready for the playoffs (I am hearing conflicting reports about his injury), that would be amazing.

How exciting is this Celtics team? I'm pumped for this season.

NOTE: I ended up watching the replay of the game, I had turned it off after the injury because it turned my stomach, but went back and watched it after.
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby air gordon on Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:41 am

Dee4Three wrote:Irving showed what he could do, I think he is a leader. He will get us wins down the stretch in a lot of games.

the celts lost this game because Lue is a master of getting defensive sieves like Irving on mismatches. man that guy was picked on big time. lebron with a hero pass to love for the dagger.

good showing buy the celts youngsters
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Dee4Three on Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:49 am

Gotta Love LeBrons lovely travel that gave them the lead (1:06 in the video)

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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Andrew on Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:00 am

Yeah, probably don't try that move outside the NBA.
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Dee4Three on Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:33 am

We beat the Bucks by 10-15 if Irving shoots his percentage from last year, and we don't go 11-21 from the line. Irving went 7-25.

Brown was 6-11, I would have liked a couple more opportunities for him down the stretch. Maybe have him come off of a staggered screen to catch and shoot, or catch and drive. However, Irving has that Iverson/Kobe mindset (Which I like) so he will keep shooting.

With all the success I believe Irving will have in green, we will also have pains. I think he will get more comfortable as the season goes on.

I disagree with a few of the calls given to Giannis (Like the clean defense Baynes played when they called him for the foul), but I don't believe that decided the game. It was our inability to hit from the line and Irving's inability to be consistent.

I love the amount of court time Tatum is getting, and Rozier looked awesome out there.
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Dee4Three on Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:48 am

Tatum and Brown looked great, especially in the first half.

We need more consistency though, that 3rd quarter was sloppy as all hell. We scored on mostly broken plays. Irving is averaging 20, but he still looks uncomfortable, it's like he can't decide when to defer or when to go into ISO Irving mode. Love seeing Horford grab boards and push the ball down the floor, an underrated ball handler for a big guy.

I like Larkin and Rozier off the bench, they both can put the ball in the basket but also take care of the ball. Both are good floor generals, which helps.

Nice seeing Yabusele hit the mid range J on the pick n pop, even if it was just in garbage time.

Daniel Theis with 11 and 5 in 21 minutes was a nice surprise, he is better than I originally thought. He gives me that Shavlik Randolph feeling, which is great. A smart player on the floor, who hustles on every possession, but also has moments where you go "Wow, this guy has skill". Theis looks like a confident shooter, he doesn't hesitate when he gets a good look at the basket.

Every game I watch Porzingis he plays poorly and looks lost out there. He was fumbling the ball on most catches, and getting bailed by the refs. Hernangomez looked better on the floor.

I am not even going to comment on our defense, because you can't evaluate it based on this game. The Knicks offense is horrible...

Can't wait to see how we do that next 3 games against the Bucks, Heat and Spurs.

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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Dee4Three on Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:14 am

Tatum is a gem.

That's all.
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby hova- on Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:23 pm

Theis is really doing well. I did not know what to expect either as he was actually a dominating athletic force in the german BBL but never played a big offensive role.

He is very good at rolling to the rim and most of the time he will as he will try to get the offensive board (which fits very well with guys who like to shoot off the pick like Kyrie).

But he has improved his outside stroke so much that I would love to see him popping out more often as many defenders will just miss out on him.

The best thing about him is his mentality though. Very low ego and a hustle player - not fancy, even after poster dunks he doesn't try to embarras or taunt - perfect role player in the NBA.
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Dee4Three on Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:46 am

Agreed on all points about Theis. Much better in the pick n pop game than I thought he would be, very confident player. Love his energy and hustle.
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Dee4Three on Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:46 am

Outrebounded the Kings 52 to 26..

Yes I know it was the Kings... but I love it.
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Sauru on Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:08 pm

each game that goes by i am happier and happier about the tatum trade
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Andrew on Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:33 pm

Historically speaking, trading the first pick for the third pick has worked out quite well for the Celtics. ;)
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby SoF'nAwesome on Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:12 pm

sauru how do you like Al Horford?
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Sauru on Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:47 pm

SoF'nAwesome wrote:sauru how do you like Al Horford?



i like hortford, i would like him a lot better on a cheaper contract. also i would not lose sleep if they included him in trades
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby SoF'nAwesome on Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:06 pm

Even without Kyrie's shots falling today, they won by 16 damn
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby NovU on Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:22 pm

What early season fluke is this. This team will sink as fast as they got here.
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Sauru on Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:31 pm

the celtics are showing why its important to have a good coach instead of just giving the job to your buddy and letting lebron run the show
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby air gordon on Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:37 am

Going to have to watch some Celtics games and their top ranked defense. Only caught the opener
During opening introductions, Jordan Bell made curious gestures with his hands, which he admitted after the game were meant to symbolize rubbing money together. "I wanted to see how cash considerations was doing over there," Bell said.
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Andrew on Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:49 pm

Tatum is shooting 52.9% on threes, including 81% on corner threes. Pretty good start, to put it mildly.
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Dee4Three on Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:50 am

Tatum has played like a veteran all season, and it's not only because of Brad Stevens and the players around him, it's just who he is. Danny and Brad saw something in him when they worked him out, something they liked about him better than Fultz. Same when they took Jaylen Brown, they liked something about him that just clicked. I think with both of them it's not just that they had tools, but that they were actually great guys, who had the right attitude, who were humble and at the same time confident.

My favorite thing about Tatum and Brown is the excitement they get when they help eachother and teammates out. They are just as happy making a play for someone else as they are for getting points themselves. This team is 9-2 and its because of that unselfishness, that extra pass, the confidence they instill in eachother. Tatum just knows where to be on the floor, and when to attack. We are a smarter team this season than last, not just more talented. Irving, Brown and Tatum are great at picking the right time to attack, or to get the ball to someone else. Tatum reminds me of a young better passing Carmelo Anthony, and that's saying something. The only reason he isn't averaging 20+ points per game is because he is on a contender, a 9-2 squad. Put him on Carmelos team in Denver in 03-04, and he is putting up 20 PPG.

The gang rebounding is so fun to watch. Watching Terry Rozier fly in for boards even when Horford or Theis is already under the hoop, or just to see an opposing team have one person under the basket while we have three... it's so fun to watch. We are working as a team on the offensive and defensive end. Watch Theis off the ball next game, he never shuts up, its awesome. He is constantly pointing, constantly communicating. One play last game where Rozier didn't rotate right and Atlanta got to the hoop (Late in the game), Theis had to make up for his mistake, and he let Rozier know about it immediately. How awesome is it that we have the new guys getting on some of the non-rookies, and them taking it in stride and improving based on it? Its so cool to watch.

Al Horford is playing the best basketball of his career right now, and it's proof that stats don't tell the whole story. He is a complete player at the moment. He has been a one man fastbreak, hitting three's standing still and on the move, slashing and finishing, hitting mid range, hitting in the post. Horford is worth every penny at this point, and I think his game translates well into his mid 30's. I think we have a very good Al Horford for many years to come, and that's really exciting.

My love hate relationship with Marcus Smart has turned into mostly love. His hustle is contagious, his offense has improved, he gets into the opposing players head. He is a very solid rebounder for his size, he looks for his teammates more this season, he's just a lot more fun to watch.

Kyrie Irving has already grown into one of my favorite players in the NBA (ever). There was a video a fan posted of Irving sitting on a bench outside of a restaurant, and they were like "Oh shit it's Kyrie Irving" and they said something like "You are a celebrity man!", and he just said "No I'm not, I'm nothing special, I'm not". The dude just wants to be a regular guy, he's humble. But when he gets out on the court, he is a methodical assassin. He is the exact opposite of a chucker on this team.

This might be my favorite Celtics team ever by Seasons end.
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Jeffx on Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:06 am

Sauru wrote:each game that goes by i am happier and happier about the tatum trade


You should also be happy Danny Ainge thought 'outside the box' and hired Brad Stevens.

I thought Ainge was crazy at the time, but dude was right.
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby hova- on Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:37 am

As I am watching all the Celtics games now in relive (skipping the first quarter most of the time though) I started to like that team again. I did not like the IT days, cannot really explain why.

One guy who really impresses me is Rozier. Dude is freaking fast and has some really nice finishes. He looks a bit wild and out of control sometimes, but he has great potential in my opnion.

Having Tatum & Brown is awesome. Not sure if they will co-exist for a long time because both have the potential to be star players and will sign loaded contracts after their rookie scales.
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Dee4Three on Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:09 am

Rozier has improved so much, I actually think he's one of the better bench PG's in the league. He is under control a lot more now, and his hustle on the boards (over 5 RPG) is amazing. HIs shot has improved, and so has his pace and finishing ability.

Tatum and Brown can literally guard all 5 positions, they are so versatile.
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Andrew on Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:36 am

Ainge has made his mistakes here and there, but no GM has a perfect record, especially because there are always going to be circumstances beyond their control, and a certain amount of guesswork. He and his staff do have an eye for talent, though. As a Bulls fan, I'm certainly envious. Ainge and company look past hype, make smart picks and deals, and find some diamonds in the rough. GarPax look past red flags, make terrible deals where they give up way too much, and find assorted animal droppings in that same grass.

How far do you think the Celtics can go this season?
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Dee4Three on Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:40 am

Andrew wrote:Ainge has made his mistakes here and there, but no GM has a perfect record, especially because there are always going to be circumstances beyond their control, and a certain amount of guesswork. He and his staff do have an eye for talent, though. As a Bulls fan, I'm certainly envious. Ainge and company look past hype, make smart picks and deals, and find some diamonds in the rough. GarPax look past red flags, make terrible deals where they give up way too much, and find assorted animal droppings in that same grass.

How far do you think the Celtics can go this season?


I think they can make it out of the East, and put up a fight with GS if they do indeed make the finals. Why? Because we are longer and more athletic this year, we are better defensively and offensively. That is not just being a homer, thats how I feel. I don't see any reason why we cannot beat any other team in the East in a 7 game series.

I just hope we can stay healthy. If we do, I know that Brad will stay the course and our play style will not deviate.

Crossing my fingers that the rest of the guys stay healthy.
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Andrew on Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:43 am

I think that's fair. Do you think Hayward returns at all this year, if they make a deep run? Should he?
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Re: Boston Celtics Thread

Postby Dee4Three on Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:47 am

Andrew wrote:I think that's fair. Do you think Hayward returns at all this year, if they make a deep run? Should he?


I don't think so. And, I think it's best he doesn't. Coming back not 100% to a team that will still be young next year, that will thrive even more with him in the lineup... just doesn't make sense. Would I like to see him in the lineup come playoff time? No, because our team will have built 82 games of chemistry together, if we are still rolling, i dont want to shake that up come playoff time.

What do you think? How many games do you think the C's win and how do you think they fair as contenders? What are your thoughts on Hayward?
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