NBA Playoffs 2008 2.Hornets vs 7.Mavs

[BigKaboom2]

Okay, so I'm sure you'll be pissed at me for this Chaser, and Benji

Forums should not require this disclaimer.,

and the others will overlook this post

This is likely.

So you agree with Chaser but disagree with how he's arguing it? What part of benji's posts do you find objectionable, such that you would not call him a great playoff performer?

[Chaser7]

Fine to argue this in a more mature manner, the parts that I find objectionable in Benji's arguments are that he is completely overlooking the last 2 and more recent playoff series. I also would like to add that while he may be able to overall average more or less than same stats in the playoffs as the season, lately he has had a knack of not producing these stats in the biggest games, such as Games 1 and 5 in the 2006 NBA finals and Games 1 and 6 in the opening round last year.

[BigKaboom2]

the parts that I find objectionable in Benji's arguments are that he is completely overlooking the last 2 and more recent playoff series

He went over ALL 82 GAMES. Not just the pre-2006 games.

Incase nobody noticed, last year was the first time Dirk legitimately "choked" in his playoff performance. In 05-06 he shot better than he had during the season and averaged 27/12.

Did you actually read this post or no? You've been saying that because of the Mavs playoff performance in the last two years, Dirk is a known choker from way back. It's simply not the case as he has shown. You're the one picking and choosing games that support your argument, not him.

How about this one?

His three worst games were the three blowouts in the series. And his absolute worst game was the worst blowout.

Looks like he pretty much covered all his bases and seemingly you haven't read the thread since you automatically dismiss the premise before entertaining the justification for it.

[Lamrock]

I got rid of that post. Basically what I meant was that I didn't agree that Dirk was a bad playoff performer, nor would I classify him as great either, as he sucked in the last two playoff series.

My bad.

[Chaser7]

Uh... no. I'm saying that Nowitzki's last 2 series, because they are the most recent, and are most important series of his career, show how he is not a great playoff performer. I did read all of those posts, and I don't even understand what the last quote shows at all. How does that cover all the bases? And how about all those other playoff struggles before the last 2 years? Or do you not remember all the frustration from him for not being able to overcome hurdles such as the Spurs?

[BigKaboom2]

If you're going to keep spamming the "best player = entire team" meme there's no way we're getting anywhere. His performance does not cause his team to automatically win, nor to automatically lose - it's far more nuanced than you make it out to be.

Benji and I both admit that players have bad games, EVEN MICHAEL JORDAN (*GASP*). To ignore 75+ games because of a few duds is just absurd, but you're obviously locked into the Dirk = choker media frenzy of the last few years, despite all this evidence to the contrary...

All of your beloved "great playoff performers" have bad series. Unfortunately and for obvious reasons, these series do not make it into the "Best of (Insert Player)" compilations so you've likely turned a blind eye.

[Indy]

Wow. I planned on coming in here and arguing with all the people I was sure were going to be ragging on Dirk for being a poor playoff performer. I'm glad to see benji has already done my job for me.

[Chaser7]

OK BigKaboom whatever, I'm not going to be convinced nor am I going to convince you. This is just dumb. Seeing how I've actually seen Nowitzki first hand, (I.E. by attending a game in person) play in the playoffs the last 2 years (the only one I might add on this forum, unless someone speaks up), I've been able to come up with my own opinions, regardless of the media. The media just happens to agree with me. Then again, why are you saying the media is completely wrong in this case, most of them are "experts" for a reason. Anyways, continue arguing all you want, because its just pointless at this stage. Let's just agree to disagree.

[benji]

Wow, that was just incredible. Quoted for posterity.

This is just dumb. Seeing as how I'm the only one (unless someone else speaks up) that has seen Nowitzki first hand play in the playoffs, I've been able to come up with my own opinions, regardless of the media. The media just happens to agree with me. Then again, why are you saying the media is completely wrong in this case, most of them are "experts" for a reason.

why are you saying the media is completely wrong in this case, most of them are "experts" for a reason

You mean these guys?

[BigKaboom2]

OH MAH GAWD.

You came up with your own opinions, but you think the guys who cover the NBA are "experts" because they're billed that way...I don't even know how to respond to that.....it's just too ridiculous.

How does watching a game make you better able to judge "choking" than looking at the stats? Can you see it come across Dirk's face when he's in the process of choking?

The rest of that post could have easily been replaced with "I have no idea how to continue arguing my position; please stop ripping me a new one" - at least that's how I'm forced to interpret it when you don't include an actual opinion in there anywhere.

EDIT: And also, you think Benji and I have never watched a playoff game involving Dirk?

[Chaser7]

No I would classify them as experts because all they do is get paid to study and watch NBA games all day long.

Stats don't show how a player chokes. For instance in the 1995 Eastern Conference matchup between the Pacers and Knicks, say hypothetically Anthony Mason had just 1 turnover (I don't know how many he had that game). However, based on you're logic you wouldn't say he choked and panicked and threw the ball right to Miller because that wouldn't necessarily show up in the box score? Stats can't show everything. Don't think there's a reason scouts go see players in person rather than watching TV? Why do you think Pat Riley left his team to scout players in person? He could have just watched the games on Tivo if he wanted to.

I don't want to argue anymore about Nowitzki because I firmly believe that Nowitzki isn't a great playoff clutch performer. Nothing you can say can change my mind. Like-wise nothing I can say will change yours. Why keep arguing then?

And no I don't think either of you have seen a game in person that took place either during last year's playoff or in the 2006 Finals. (I said in person too the previous post, read again before you try and be a smartass)

And Benji what is wrong with those experts? That link didn't really prove that they were poor at analyzing the NBA..

[BigKaboom2]

No I would classify them as experts because all they do is get paid to study and watch NBA games all day long.

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Stats don't show how a player chokes.

Then what the hell was this post for?

LMFAO Ok Benji, I'm arrogant. Ok, ok yeah. You sure like to spin facts like the media does, hahahah wow. Look at this

Playoffs 2007:
Game 1: 4/16, 25%
Game 2: 7/15, 47%
Game 3: 7/16, 43.75%
Game 4: 9/19, 47.3%
Game 5: 7/15, 47%
Game 6: 2/13, 15.3%

Which is an average of... 38% shooting for the series. Yeah that puts him in MJ's status. Did MJ ever shoot 2/13 in the decisive game of the series? No. Benji, you are unbelievable. I'm not saying he hasn't done well in the playoffs. he just doesn't do it consistently enough. The stats you selected are select games where he did really well, I could pull out even worse games that Nowtizki has had in the playoffs, but I'm selecting one entire series, so its not like picking and choosing from different series to find stats that only back me up. (aka you). He never shot above 50% in the 2007 playoffs, and in the 2 biggest games, Game 1 and 6, he shot just over 20%! 20%! How can you say that's not meaningful. Nowitzki has had many great playoff games as you have pointed out, but the fact that he could find ways to shoot better against a team that JUST snuck into the playoffs says a lot about him. Benji=wrong.

Nothing you can say can change my mind. Like-wise nothing you can say will change mine.

Yes, but is there anything I can say that will change your mind?

And no I don't think either of you have seen a game in person that took place either during last year's playoff or in the 2006 Finals.

So games are different depending on how you watch them and how you receive information pertinent to the game?

[Lamrock]

I saw the Blazers/Spurs game a couple weeks ago in person. The Blazers only scored 65 points that night, giving up 72. This proves that they are the second best defensive team in the league, and the worst offensive team, because I saw it in person.

[Chaser7]

Sorry BigKaboom, I guess I need to proofread my posts more carefully. I meant to say "... Likewise nothing I can say will change yours". And I guess I worded my last post poorly by saying "Stats can't show how a player chokes". I meant to say Stats doesn't always necessarily show how a player chokes. Again, I'm sure you'll continue to just try and rip apart my previous posts. Why do you care whether or not I think Nowitzki is a great playoff performer?

[benji]

The Blazers only scored 65 points that night, giving up 72.

Stop using stats. Which team looked like it won?

[Lamrock]

Jarrett Jack scored last, so I think Blazers did.

Not only that, Portland winning FELT right.

[BigKaboom2]

Why do you post that you think Nowitzki is a horrible playoff performer if you don't want anyone to assess your opinion? Would you prefer I skip over your posts next time?

Again, I'm sure you'll continue to just try and rip apart my previous posts.

If someone comes in here and starts spouting things that are completely wrong and I "rip apart" the posts, does that make me a bad person? Should I just let the misinformation fly without challenging any of it?

[benji]

Jarrett Jack scored last, so I think Blazers did.

STOP USING STATS. Jeez, they don't mean anything. Do you feel like Jarrett Jack was winning the game? Stop telling me how he "scored" which is just a word for "points" which is a statistic. Were the Blazers making their teammates better and being leaders?

Not only that, Portland winning FELT right.

That's more like it.

[Chaser7]

Again, you're interpreting things the wrong way. Ripping apart my posts refers to that "Yes, but is there anything I can say that will change your mind?" comment, I know you knew what I was trying to say, since edited.

Also, saying Dirk Nowitzki is a poor playoff performer is not completely wrong, its just your opinion that it is. Much as it is my opinion that he is a choker.

[benji]

And Benji what is wrong with those experts? That link didn't really prove that they were poor at analyzing the NBA..

Nine of them picked Hedo Turkoglu. Another picked David West. Another had Chris Kaman.

Also, saying Dirk Nowitzki is a poor playoff performer is not completely wrong, its just your opinion that it is.

Playing the pomo card after spending half a thread providing no evidence to support your argument is just bad manners.

[Chaser7]

Why isn't Hedo a legitimate candidate? He certainly has played much much better this season, than any season before this. Same with West and Kaman. The award doesn't dictate that it has to go to someone who is under 24 years old.

I have provided evidence, you've just discounted it.

[Lamrock]

If you look at per minute stats, Hedo hasn't improved all that much, if at all this season.

[freeza22]

i agree hedo has been a monster this season he should get most improved

[BigKaboom2]

I have provided evidence, you've just discounted it.

You've provided premises with no evidence to support them. This is what happened to el_badman in a recent General Talk thread. If you come up with outlandish premises and expect people to accept them, you're not thinking clearly.

[benji]

Your "evidence" in this thread against the claim that Dirk Nowitzki is a great/good/above-average playoff performer.

-He had a bad series and a half once.
-He played poorly in four games I've decided are the most important ever.
-He's not a leader.
-The Mavericks do not have any titles.
-He doesn't make his teammates better and carry them.
-I'm the only one to see the games in person.
-Stop arguing with me, it's my opinion.
EDIT ADDED:
-I think people on TV know more than you do, they're on TV.
-How old are you?

Why isn't Hedo a legitimate candidate? He certainly has played much much better this season, than any season before this. Same with West and Kaman.

Usually, when you play "much better" you don't play the same or slightly better than years past. Had this discussion before, check the awards thread among others.

The Most Improved Player award is for...the most improved player. Someone like a Roger Mason, who went from useless to useful. Not someone who took more shots or saw more minutes or you and your "experts" didn't notice...