Lakers Thread

[dada]

One game at a time is how I'll take it next season. No predictions, no nothing.


I intend to stick aronud though you never know what happens when responsibilities come knocking.

[J J]

I'm a Laker fan for a couple of years now and it's quite sad to see that the Lakers haven't made a major deal yet since they are totally wasting the best player in the league at his prime.

I just hope the Lakers would stay healthy and get a good spot in the Playoffs, oh, how I wish we would win a championship even though how clear it is that the Mavs will win it this year.

[Fresh8]

No matter how much you wanna see them win, we dont have the right pieces to strike a major deal... and the Spurs, Suns and Mavs are just too good for us to even beat to be able to contend for a title.

I would give it 2 or 3 years though (thats 2-3 years before we may be a legit top 6 team...) I think the team we already have will surprise some people who are doubting our ability to win.

[J J]

True true, still I think they should trade a guard or two, from the way I see it, Sasha, Evans and Turiaf are worth something and having 7 guards including Kobe(who plays 42+ minutes a game) is not going to give you bench productivity, I hope they would get a better center to replace Brown, or someone at the 3 spot who's consistent and a good guy off the bench for Luke.

Note: Trade Radmanovic too.

[Fresh8]

Be patient.

We still haven't seen Radmanovic play this season. He was upset about last season so I'm looking for him to step up.

We're not going to get any guard in a trade. I don't think we need to wrtie now. We already have Kobe and Fisher in the backcourt. And we have Farmar and Crittenton learning to play PG in the triangle. We got Evans who makes the most of the mnutes he gets playing behind Kobe. Vujacic isn't going to be much value to any other teams.

And Kwame Brown is good. I don't know why you want to replace him but I think he will have a solid year. Last season it was the injury that wrecked his season. This year, he will be back to what he was 2 years ago. Chris Mihm can come off the bench for Brown and give us some points in the paint while Odom can start at his more favoured PF position.

[LakersRule24]

I can't imagine Kobe play with Jason Kidd the entire olympics/tournament then come back to LA and have to play with Kwame Cake. Imagine how he and all the other fans feel about the declined Jason Kidd trade now. How can you possibly turn down Bynum + fillers for Kidd?

[Andrew]

I'd say it simply comes down to the Lakers having reservations about giving up on Bynum only to watch him explode and become a dominant force somewhere else and to be fair, his stat line is very encouraging given he was playing less than a half a game during the regular season last year. Of course, he does remain largely unproven whereas Kidd is a bonafide star and still one of the top point guards in the league. The Lakers would seem to be more willing to forego what should be a formidable duo now in favour of what might be successful down the road.

[Fresh8]

See Andrew, that's the thing a lot of Lakers fans don't understand.

The Lakers had two paths they could choose. To compete now. Or to compete in the future. For the past 2 seasons, they have seemed to taken the latter. Suddenly trading Bynum for Kidd, would have been a major headache for the front office.

There are always two sides of the argument. If Kobe wasn't complaining, I don't think anyone would give a shit about the failed deal. But both sides of the argument are legit IMO and taking a chance on either Kidd or Bynum would have been risky.

With Kidd, you get maybe the best pure PG in the NBA. However, would he fit into Jax's system? Would he really be as efficient as he is elsewhere by playing in the triangle offence? Do you really think Jax would make adjustments to accomodate for Kidd? And if so, would it work?

On the surface, it seems that a Kobe and Kidd combo would be great but once you look a bit deeper into the issue, there are a lot of what ifs.

As for Bynum, he has the size and 'seemingly' raw talent to be a solid starting centre. I'm not going as far as to say he will be a superstar centre but he may become a good starter. And he has shown flashes.

Then you think about what if he doesn't succeed. That would backfire a lot. People say he will take the path of someone like Jermaine O"Neal and really explode in his 4th or 5th season... like other HS-Pro players. TMac, Kobe, Jermaine all improved and made a name for themselves a bit later into their careers. Don't forget though that Bynum hadn't started playing basketball until later in high school; the other three guys had been playing all their lives I think. Thats probably a bit of why people have stated that he doesn't have that same love for the game, desire to get better, etc to succeed and improve and grow into the star big man we would need (Not sure how true that is though).

Then again, an argument in favour for Bynum is that... since Oden is going to be out West for the next however long he will be there and that Yao Ming is here too... the Lakers need to have a big man to match up with them if they are ever to compete for a shot at a title. Bynum with his size and youth could one day be that player.

So since the Lakers have chosen to go with trying to build a contender for the future... I can see why they held onto Bynum.

It is frustrating especially when their star player is unhappy with the 'progress made.' There's nothing we can do though and everyone needs to undertsand that fact.

[J J]

Well, honestly, for me, from the way I see it, Kobe wants trophies for his career but not for the organization.

[Fresh8]

Well, honestly, for me, from the way I see it, Kobe wants trophies for his career but not for the organization.

Can you elaborate?

[LakersRule24]

Thing is, Kobe has had lots of NBA mileage now. He is in his 11th year. He is 29 years of age, he has had such a huge load on himself. He has been expected to play hard nose defense while passing the ball like Steve Nash and scoring like Michael Jordan. That has clearly aged him throughout the years. His window is open, his time is now. It will be a few years before that window starts to shut.

Reason this is important is simple. 48 of the last 50 championship teams have included a HOF. Without Kobe, the Lakers will not have one. The Lakers will become a hellhole for years to come while looking for the next great draft pick or transaction. As we all know, that is simply impossible especially with Mitch and Jim Buss running the office. Hence the great demand by Kobe to bring back Jerry West.

That's why our number 1 goal should be to win now. Trade the unproven future for a proven HOF that can provide production at a high level now. How can you pass up Kidd/Kobe/Odom? If it was Odom for Kidd I'd understand. But I cannot understand why the FO was reluctant to trade Bynum for Kidd. You just don't turn down unproven talent for HOF talent.

[Fresh8]

Thing is, Kobe has had lots of NBA mileage now. He is in his 11th year. He is 29 years of age, he has had such a huge load on himself. He has been expected to play hard nose defense while passing the ball like Steve Nash and scoring like Michael Jordan. That has clearly aged him throughout the years. His window is open, his time is now. It will be a few years before that window starts to shut.

I have to admit... the 'huge load' you describe was put on by himself when he and Shaq feuded and they destroyed the team from inside. Kobe's insistence of being the man has come back to haunt him. I sort of knew at the back of my mind that it wouldn't work out but the fact that Kobe has started to complain a few years ahead of schedule doesn't really help.

Reason this is important is simple. 48 of the last 50 championship teams have included a HOF. Without Kobe, the Lakers will not have one. The Lakers will become a hellhole for years to come while looking for the next great draft pick or transaction. As we all know, that is simply impossible especially with Mitch and Jim Buss running the office. Hence the great demand by Kobe to bring back Jerry West.

How bad is the front office run?

See, you illustrate the point I made above how some Laker fans just don't understand.

If the aim was to win now, Buss and Kupchak have done a shit job.

But since the aim has always been to build a contender/good team and surround the team around Kobe's talents, then the job hasn't been all that bad. Theyve brought in guys who potentially fit in the triangle and also compliment Kobe's skills. The team is also young.

That's not doing a bad job.

That's why our number 1 goal should be to win now. Trade the unproven future for a proven HOF that can provide production at a high level now. How can you pass up Kidd/Kobe/Odom? If it was Odom for Kidd I'd understand. But I cannot understand why the FO was reluctant to trade Bynum for Kidd. You just don't turn down unproven talent for HOF talent.

At the time, the decision would have been very tough. The Lakers had sepnt all this time developing Bynum and then need to trade him for Kidd who is nearing the end of his career although dispelling those theories by having a crazy good season last year.

As I've said before, if the Lakers wanted to win right away... they should have traded for Kidd. No matter how much he might not fit in the system, both Coach and player might have worked out a way for him to play.

However, the focus back then was for the future. So thats why it didn't go down.

Hindsight is 20/20... I'm just wondering what will happen down the road and they look back and might say, 'Damn, we shoulda made the trade.' The best case scenario for those in the front office is that they will be looking back and saying, 'yes, we made the right choice.'

[LakersRule24]

L4L from Clublakers?

I have to admit... the 'huge load' you describe was put on by himself when he and Shaq feuded and they destroyed the team from inside. Kobe's insistence of being the man has come back to haunt him. I sort of knew at the back of my mind that it wouldn't work out but the fact that Kobe has started to complain a few years ahead of schedule doesn't really help.

It wasn't all Kobe. The Lakers were not going to keep Shaq anyways because he wanted a 30 million dollar contract.

How bad is the front office run?

See, you illustrate the point I made above how some Laker fans just don't understand.

If the aim was to win now, Buss and Kupchak have done a shit job.

But since the aim has always been to build a contender/good team and surround the team around Kobe's talents, then the job hasn't been all that bad. Theyve brought in guys who potentially fit in the triangle and also compliment Kobe's skills. The team is also young.

That's not doing a bad job.

They told Kobe they would try to win now. But instead, they went on a longterm plan that Kobe knew nothing about, this is not only bad for Kobe but also for the franchise. They have turned LA into a mess and a mud puddle. He is the worse GM in the league currently. I mean the literally traded an allstar for a 7 feet bum who can't make a layup in his 7th season.

If their aim was to win now, they could have Kidd, Butler, Odom, and Kobe all on the same team right now.

It's obvious they're trying to build for the future. No one in this world can deny that. I just explained why you should not do that above. Building for the future=Waste of Kobe's prime=no rings

At the time, the decision would have been very tough. The Lakers had sepnt all this time developing Bynum and then need to trade him for Kidd who is nearing the end of his career although dispelling those theories by having a crazy good season last year.

As I've said before, if the Lakers wanted to win right away... they should have traded for Kidd. No matter how much he might not fit in the system, both Coach and player might have worked out a way for him to play.

However, the focus back then was for the future. So thats why it didn't go down.

Hindsight is 20/20... I'm just wondering what will happen down the road and they look back and might say, 'Damn, we shoulda made the trade.' The best case scenario for those in the front office is that they will be looking back and saying, 'yes, we made the right choice.'

But I don't understand why they are building for the future. I can't see that side of the argument.

[Jackal]

Let's just sum it up, shall we?

Kobe's a bitch for copping out so soon after being "the main man". Mitch is a bitch for not knowing how to manage a god damn team. Buss is a bitch for not willing to shell out the cash for a couple of more very realistic runs at the championship while Kobe is again a bitch for not letting Shaq just transition in to being second fiddle, as if he's having such a difficult time doing that in Miami. So difficult they won a Championship.

Bryant is better than Wade too. It's a series of unfortunate events. Bryant though is like a spoilt little girl who can't be happy with anything. Grass seems to always be greener for him in some other situation. He prides himself on being a hardworker not a quitter...then whines and moans like a bitch when real hardworkers (think KG and Iverson) stuck it out for way longer.

Don't bullshit me about Kobe's yearning to win because he's a winner, that means that KG and Iverson aren't winners. If you believe that, up yours. They just knew how to be loyal to a team instead of jumping ship as soon as they realized shit was going downhill. Bryant is a faggot for bailing on LA, a huge faggot. Great basketball player and all...but at the end of the day...a great faggot basketball player who is pretty much ready to quit on LA.

[The X]

amen Jackal, amen....

on a side note, I recall reading somewhere that Kobe was compared to Pistol Pete Maravich (a personal fav of mine)....both insanely talented players who could achieve anything they want, but when things don't go their way, they bitch & whinge, & pass the buck....

it's time to suck it up Kobe....if you played 100% on both ends of the court (not just one, some people seem to forget that MJ played both ways), maybe your team would be better....& maybe the GM would consider it worthwhile to trade for the likes of Kidd.....

[---]

Don't bullshit me about Kobe's yearning to win because he's a winner, that means that KG and Iverson aren't winners. If you believe that, up yours. They just knew how to be loyal to a team instead of jumping ship as soon as they realized shit was going downhill.

Other than that, I agree.

[Jackal]

Iverson bailed pretty much when he realized he got old. Iverson stuck it out in Philly for a really long time. Saying Iverson bailed the way Kobe (after what, 2 seasons?) bailed is just silly. Iverson endured a lot more.

[Fresh8]

I wrote a huge ass post and then IE decided to die on me.

I will have to agree with Jackal though. I lost a lot of respect for Kobe as a person because he's decided to pull this. The Lakers haven't even done that bad either being close to .500 for the past two seasons (the season before these last two Kobe was injured) and making the playoffs to lose to Phoenix. And come on, losing to Phoenix isn't bad... they are good.

So yeah, Garnett has been on a team for most of his career that was going nowhere. He never got past the first round until Cassell and Spree showed up. Then after they were gone, the Wolves just haven't done much to help him get back to the postseason and especially not fast enough. I think you could make an arguement that a lot more of Garnett's prime was wasted than Kobe's has been.

And I can see where Jackal is going on about with AI. Iverson has been with the team for a very long time and asked to be traded after 12-13 years. He's on the downside of his prime also.

Kobe is in his prime right now and he seems wanting to call it quits after three years of being the man... which is what he had wished for. When it comes to loyalty and guys who weren't loyal to their teams and wanted out... I think of Vince Carter first. AI And KG were there for their teams through the semi good and the bad throughout their best years of their careers.

[Kbryant8]

Philly traded AI against hes will.
AI is a sixer in his heart for life.

[Sauru]

i guess its clear that kobe is more a pippen than a jordan

[Patr1ck]

i guess its clear that kobe is more a pippen than a jordan

Probably. Correct me if I am wrong, but I have heard stories about Pippen being more of a leader then Jordan, as far as the team was concerned, but I also remember stories of Jordan slapping teammates in the locker room when they mess up. Kobe has shown that he is a great go-to scorer at anytime in a game, but he doesn't have confidence in his current teammates. It's hard to call him a leader when he sais things like "ship his ass out" about Bynum. However, you can also look at it like he is being a leader trying to acquire more established talent for the team.

[J J]

Well, honestly, for me, from the way I see it, Kobe wants trophies for his career but not for the organization.

Can you elaborate?

What I mean is, from the way I see it, Kobe doesn't care about the Lakers organization nor what team he is playing for, the only thing he cares for is his career and tries to get above every legend including Michael Jordan.

He wants to win championships because he wants to add the number of trophies he won in his career for everyone to be astonished about, he doesn't care about the players he plays with, doesn't care about the city he plays in, and doesn't care about the fans because the only thing he cares about is himself, no offense to Kobe-lovers. Just my honest opinion.

[Fresh8]

Probably. Correct me if I am wrong, but I have heard stories about Pippen being more of a leader then Jordan, as far as the team was concerned, but I also remember stories of Jordan slapping teammates in the locker room when they mess up.

I've read the same stories too. MJ has never been known to be too tolerent with his teammates. Although, don't get me wrong... he always respected his teammates and treated them as equals. In a book I read he was playing Bill Wennington one on one while people were heckling Wennington and Jordan stood up for Wennington calling the hecklers out.

People have said this was his way of making his teammates better. He was brutal against them in training and during games and hated mistakes. I think I've also read that Jordan being a perfectionist was a good and a bad thing. I think some team mates have been broken down by that kind of attitude. And the guys who stuck around were those strong willed enough to take it from MJ.

Pippen was always a good floor general and a leader. I'm not entirely sure if pippen was the more vocal leader though.

Kobe has shown that he is a great go-to scorer at anytime in a game, but he doesn't have confidence in his current teammates. It's hard to call him a leader when he sais things like "ship his ass out" about Bynum. However, you can also look at it like he is being a leader trying to acquire more established talent for the team.

Telling people to 'ship his ass out' isn't a leadership quality IMO. This is why Chucky Atkins said that Kobe was the GM. If you say stuff like that, I wouldn't count you as a good leader.

Confidence in his team mates... he doesn't have it. I'm not sure if he has really tired hard to start to trust in his team mates. However, when he came back at the satrt of last season, the team was winning because he was passing and trusting in his team mates. That's until everyone got injured, the lakers were on a slump and Jax told him to step up. Kobe delivered but for the rest of the season, it was all Kobe... again.

It's a two way street for the lakers. Kobe needs to trsut in his team mates and his team mates need to step up and deliver. However, in terms of Kobe's leadership, i see it as this: When he tries, he is a leader on the court but I am more and more doubting his leadership capabilities off the floor. I think that's why the front office had envisioned for Lamar to be that vocal leader off the court. And I think Lamar does a fine job... unfortuantely he can't get it done consistently on the floor.

it's time to suck it up Kobe....if you played 100% on both ends of the court (not just one, some people seem to forget that MJ played both ways), maybe your team would be better....& maybe the GM would consider it worthwhile to trade for the likes of Kidd.....

X, not sure if this is a valid arguement but... Kobe plays less than 20 minutes a game for Team USA against competition which isn't near the level of NBA-caliber. In the NBA, he plays maybe more than 40 minutes a game against the most athletic an d maybe talented swingmen in the world. The Lakers rely on Kobe to score as none of his teammates can deliver on a consistent basis. Team USA has guys Kobe can fall back on. The thing is Kobe can't (Or maybe won't) play all out on both ends of the floor for the Lakers.

You might nthink it's a weak arguement but i think it's sort of valid. Not an excuse for not playing harder on defence but it can be a reason why he doesn't seem to do it. Although, he does turn it up when he feels the need to. At least he has that luxary.

With the team mates thing, I think it's more of his lack of trust in them. I'm sure that when he does seem to trust those guys on offence, his defence consistency will also improve. We just need to wait and see.

I wanna quickly say that the fact that Bryant is getting away with handchecks and stuff in the international game m akes him an even tougher defender... The NBA shouldn't have abolished handchecking... They destroyed the concept of hard and physical defence for the NBA. It's affected our games in real life... i get called for fouls when I'm, 2-3 metres away from the ball...

[LakersRule24]

If "ship his ass out" isn't a leadership quality, then let's stop calling Michael Jordan a leader. He did a lot of that and much more in his early days.

Can't blame him for not trusting one of the worse groups in NBA history.

Kwame=can't make a layup in his 7th season, fumbles too much
Bynum=lazy in game, 2 inch vertical in game, a sloth
Odom=inconsistent
Walton=life was over ever since the ball change
Smush=worse point guard in the league
Cook=inconsistent
Sasha=inconsistent, very soft
Radmanovic=life was over since the injury

[Fresh8]

Kwame=can't make a layup in his 7th season, fumbles too much
Bynum=lazy in game, 2 inch vertical in game, a sloth
Odom=inconsistent
Walton=life was over ever since the ball change
Smush=worse point guard in the league
Cook=inconsistent
Sasha=inconsistent, very soft
Radmanovic=life was over since the injury

Sure, they aren't the best players in the NBA but I think they all fit a certain role.

Kwame: Good interior defence, has given the likes of Tim Duncan trouble in the past. Injury hurt him at the worst possible time as he was finding his niche for the Lakers.

Bynum: He's still young and played out of nessecity last season. I'm not thinking too much about him till he gets regular minutes because he is good enough.

Odom: Inconsistency... however, he did havea rough year last year. After the passing of his daughter he was strong enough to come back to play. And he played better than ever... unfortuantely his injury made him revert back to the old Lamar... however, I have a feeling that with Fish back in the fold, Lamar can go back to play PF where he plays his best.

Walton: You obviously don't understand the value of Walton on the team.

Smush: Yeah, I didn't like smush either.

Cook: He can shoot and that's about it. I agree. However, he is on the team for that reason. To shoot the rock if open.

Radmanovic: I'm anticipating a better season from him this season. He was clearly disappointed in himself last season but I think a reason is also due to the fact he wasn't picking up the offence too well and when he was, he got injured. As a shooter coming off the bench, he holds a lot of value. And I think I recall him doing well guarding guys towards the All-Star break to make up for his hand injury limiting his shot.

If "ship his ass out" isn't a leadership quality, then let's stop calling Michael Jordan a leader.

Read what he posted:

Pippen being more of a leader then Jordan

He did a lot of that and much more in his early days.

And i also wouldn't call MJ from the 'early days' a leader. On the court maybe since he carried his team on his back... Off the court, i'm not sure if he really was a leader. It was only later on, maybe when Phil came, Phil taught MJ to trust in his teammates and how he could help them get better... that's when Jordan became a better leader.

Perhaps someone who knows the subject a bit more like Andrew, can help validate this point.