Spirit of '99: 2011 Lockout Discussion

[Andrew]

Absolutely, with the length of the NBA season they can afford to lose the preseason. The NBA preseason is very much an afterthought, after all. Still, it's that ticking clock and the knowledge that the start of the regular is next on the chopping block that makes it cause for concern. There's nothing else to cancel or postpone now but the season itself.

[Mavs4Life]

Well they have a few more weeks before chaos, at least this season dosen't start in the last week of October.

[puddnheadwilson]

Meanwhile, the first two weeks of training camp and the preseason have officially been cancelled.

This isn't as bad as it sounds in the first place. Same happened in the NFL and it - more or less - meant only less injuries during that period.
Nevertheless, time is running away as we nearly have October.

But now players are dropping like flies with ACL injuries!

[shadowgrin]

This isn't as bad as it sounds in the first place. Same happened in the NFL and it - more or less - meant only less injuries during that period.

I disagree that the cancellation of training camps aren't bad.
Preseason games may not be important for both leagues. Mostly the team noobs play in NBA preseason games while no preseason is a good thing for the NFL since even in practice (pre or regular season) there are more occurrence of injuries in the NFL than NBA. But training camp is really important as compared to preseason games.
Training camp is where players condition and prepare their bodies to handle the coming season. This is also the time for them to be familiar with the team's offense and defense. It's not called 'training' for nothing. Just ask Eddy Curry.

[Andrew]

The cancellation of the preseason would likely allow them to reschedule training camp towards the end of October, if they can get a deal done in time for the regular season to begin. Failing that, if the regular season does get postponed or games are lost, so long as the season happens at some point I expect they'll allow for training camp and a brief offseason as they did in 1999, leaving out the preseason entirely.

[Patr1ck]

They could compromise and allow a bigger roster for the first few regular season games instead of doing a preseason. It could work similar to the way baseball expands their 25 man roster to 40, allowing players to get actual nba experience.

[Andrew]

Talks to continue Wednesday.

Smiling widely but even resorting to a memorable NBA cliche to avoid specifics, David Stern provided little insight into the direction of the league’s labor situation.

That, he hinted, could come Wednesday.

Negotiators for the NBA and its players met for only about two hours Tuesday and plan to resume the talks early Wednesday. Stern said that meeting will determine how soon it’s worth sitting down again.

And if it’s not later this week, more cancellations are likely next week.

Woj tweeted some encouraging notes suggesting the sides are closer than they were despite there being no new proposals, but we've heard that one before.

EDIT: Apparently, owners have budged slightly on the hard cap.

[Andrew]

More meetings, no real progress, time running out. At least they're talking, I guess.

[shadowgrin]

Wade has been in New York for the past couple days for business meetings. When the invitation came to attend Friday’s session, he did not hesitate.

Fisher will brief the players first on the state of the talks.

And that is one of the reasons why the NBPA isn't the same and is weaker compared to the NFLPA. During the NFL lockout they had 'superstars' like Tom Brady and Peyton Manning leading them while the NBPA had to invite one of their most well known players just to attend one damn session and he'll attend because his business meeting coincided to be in the same area as the negotiations! Goody.
I expect the NBPA to be ass raped by the owners when this lockout is over.
If only Kobe would attend a session this lockout would be over by now but he needs to tour the world for his worshipers.
NBPA idiots aren't worthy of Kobe's presence. iirc Kobe was (the only?) one who opposed the maximum salary limitation in a previous CBA.



Reports say most of the owners are ready to concede the hard cap, win for the NBPA you stupid shadow!

Concession of the hard cap really means nothing for the NBPA's progress on the bargaining table as discussed in the first page of this thread.

[Andrew]

Apparently the big names have been told to stay away and avoid commenting on the situation, or so I read.

[shadowgrin]

Well that is for Fisher and Hunter.

[Andrew]

I guess you have to admire Fisher for standing up for his fellow players and defending their rights in these negotiations. On the court, he's usually about falling down on defense.

[shadowgrin]

...and he's about to flop on the negotiations too.


I do recall about the players asked not to comment on the negotiations. I also recall that players say the owners are more 'behaved' when the franchise players are present in discussions, which on the flip side might be a bad thing because the owners don't feel 'free' in speaking their mind during discussions which can slow down the negotiation.
But having a franchise player in the discussion to confront the owners is a much better tactic in bargaining for their side as compared to an old player nearing retirement role player and a union head who can't even answer one question from Shane Battier that only required a yes or no answer.

[NovU]

I hope Wade goes ape shit and gets something finally done FFS.

[benji]

They don't want franchise players involved because the young franchise players led by Shaq are what ended things in the last lockout.

Franchise players will always get paid under any CBA and that isn't going to change, this is really about guys like Fisher and Bonner continuing to get paid above the league average.

[shadowgrin]

Franchise players will always get paid under any CBA and that isn't going to change, this is really about guys like Fisher and Bonner continuing to get paid above the league average.

How The Last NBA Lockout Changed The Game For The League's Middle Class

The thought is that before the 1998-99 lockout, there was mass income equality among players: you had select superstars (Michael Jordan, Patrick Ewing) making huge salaries, a few stars making good chunks of changes and everyone else making relatively little. The new CBA in '99 capped salary at the top and invented new mechanisms (all hail the mid-level exception) to redirect payroll to the mid-rung players of the league.

Now, the concern is that those middle-class players make too much money. The '99 CBA was too effective as an income redistributor, and it's driving the league out of business because no one can afford to pay all of these Travis Outlaws and Amir Johnsons $7 million a year.



The red-orange bars are 1998, and the blue bars are 2011. The general pattern stands out immediately: most of the league's payroll in 1998 went to players making less than $6 million. In fact, some 77 percent of the league's entire 1998 payroll went to the 417 players making less than $6 million. After that range, there's a huge drop-off, where the other 23 players in the league share 23 percent of the payroll. (MJ himself earned 3 percent of all NBA player payroll.)

By 2011, the salary structure had flattened and stretched significantly. In 1998, those 417 players making less than $6 million constituted 95 percent of the league. In 2011, 71 percent of the league made less than $6 million. But while that made up 77 percent of total league payroll in 1998, it came out to only 39 percent of salary in 2011. That means that over that $6 million level, 29 percent of the league's player base made 61 percent of its salary.

Now owners apparently want to revert back to the good ol' days, when your stars drew huge checks but everyone else would sign to non-backbreaking deals. That's what the hard cap would effectively do: if faced with a choice of giving up a star making $15 million or three solid roleplayers making $5 million apiece, every team will give up the roleplayers. Every team. Those roleplayers will sign somewhere else for less. The market will dampen for these players. Shawn Marions will become Matt Barneses. Drew Goodens will become Joe Smiths.

[Andrew]

You can understand why the owners would want to avoid overpaying non-superstar players, but in that respect they should all just learn some self control. If no one is willing to pay (insert borderline All-Star here) upwards of $15 million a year or more, then he can't easily hold his team to ransom in free agency and no one splashes out on a ridiculous contract.

It's easily enforced with the hard cap, but what that's really saying is that owners can't control themselves.

[benji]

They can't because they're in competition with each other.

The Bulls overpaid for Boozer, Korver and Brewer last offseason, but had they not signed anyone and built through wise payroll management even if it took another five years to get out of the first round would Bulls fans have been fine with that while the Heat, Knicks, Mavericks, Lakers and everyone else stocked up on new pieces?

Look at all the shit Sterling gets, not for being a racist asshole, but for not overpaying all the so-called "talent" the Clippers had for 15 years. Even after throwing tens of millions into the money hole with Kaman and Baron Davis and he's still a "bad owner" for not spending enough on players.

If you intend to actually win you can't knee cap yourself while the Lakers, Magic, Heat, Mavericks, Spurs, Magic, Celtics, Knicks, etc. will all pay whatever it takes to contend year in and year out. If you just want to make money or control your spending prepare to be absolutely despised like Sarver, the Maloofs, Sterling, etc.

[Andrew]

Talks are ongoing through the weekend.

[NovU]

They can't because they're in competition with each other.

The Bulls overpaid for Boozer, Korver and Brewer last offseason, but had they not signed anyone and built through wise payroll management even if it took another five years to get out of the first round would Bulls fans have been fine with that while the Heat, Knicks, Mavericks, Lakers and everyone else stocked up on new pieces?

Look at all the shit Sterling gets, not for being a racist asshole, but for not overpaying all the so-called "talent" the Clippers had for 15 years. Even after throwing tens of millions into the money hole with Kaman and Baron Davis and he's still a "bad owner" for not spending enough on players.

If you intend to actually win you can't knee cap yourself while the Lakers, Magic, Heat, Mavericks, Spurs, Magic, Celtics, Knicks, etc. will all pay whatever it takes to contend year in and year out. If you just want to make money or control your spending prepare to be absolutely despised like Sarver, the Maloofs, Sterling, etc.

Seems like this cannot be fixed even with hard cap. It's just that there are too many teams in the league at the moment.

[Andrew]

Wade, LeBron make stand in labor meeting

Before a stunning confrontation between Dwyane Wade and NBA commissioner David Stern in Friday’s labor meeting, Wade, LeBron James and Chris Paul told their Players Association peers that they’re willing to sit out the season rather than make further concessions to the owners, sources told Yahoo! Sports.

Well, bringing them in sure helped the situation.

[Patr1ck]

Replacement players while they sit.

[shadowgrin]

Wade, LeBron make stand in labor meeting

Before a stunning confrontation between Dwyane Wade and NBA commissioner David Stern in Friday’s labor meeting, Wade, LeBron James and Chris Paul told their Players Association peers that they’re willing to sit out the season rather than make further concessions to the owners, sources told Yahoo! Sports.

Well, bringing them in sure helped the situation.

Finally some real progress! Instead of both sides exchanging about nothings regarding the issues that won't resolve itself unless both sides confront it head on, constant meetings or not.

[NovU]

Wade VS Stern? This certainly is not too promising for the Heat's future. We need those foul calls.

[puddnheadwilson]

Wade used to be one of my players until that nasty divorce of his. Now he does this. I wonder if this is how he treated his ex-wife!