NBA Playoffs 2008 2.Hornets vs 7.Mavs

[Chaser7]

You can agree and also expand on a point, see even there you couldn't agree . Your argument is terrible for what its worth. He clearly isn't a great playoff performer, because he is supposed to a be leader who can't lead his team consistently. Sure he's had some great series, but the last 2 series he's done awful. How can you not blame him for the Mavs defeats at all? In fact you even say it without meaning to by saying "the playoffs only confirmed his importance to the team", i.e. without him they can't win a playoff series, which shows that he is the one to blamed. LOL

check and... mate.

[benji]

Seeping with such arrogance.

He clearly isn't a great playoff performer, because he is supposed to a be leader who can't lead his team consistently.

05-06: 27/12, 60%
04-05: 24/10, 51%
03-04: 27/12, 56%
02-03: 25/12, 59%
01-02: 28/13, 58%

Denying Dirk is a great playoff performer is denying what Dirk has actually done in favor of what you want Dirk to have done or whatever media meme you're currently latched onto.

Sure he's had some great series, but the last 2 series he's done awful.

Awful? I guess a 26/16 game on 62% shooting, 30/7 on 59%, and series-ending 29/15 on 57% is awful. Jordan's 1996 Finals was awful too, 31% and 26% FG in games four and six? Awful.

How can you not blame him for the Mavs defeats at all?

Where did I say that?

In fact you even say it without meaning to by saying "the playoffs only confirmed his importance to the team", i.e. without him they can't win a playoff series, which shows that he is the one to blamed. LOL

It was rhetorical fun on the MVP question.

Now it is my turn to be declarative.

You, like the media apparently cannot handle actual basketball analysis, so you boil it all down to the coach or best player and they serve as your entire focus for any and all blame. The nuance of reality is lost in the desire for a hero-villian story. And if it does not fit your story, you need to ignore or simplify in order to maintain the story. Dirk's entire 82 playoff game resume is irrelevant, only the games you decide count are the ones that do. The performance of the remainder of the team is lost, so Dirk can only be the focus and declared to "not be a leader," another such baseless meme.

[Andrew]

I'll say Hornets in six, thanks in part to owning home court advantage.

[Martti.]

Hornets in 6. Despite the experience Kidd and Nowitzki have, they haven't been good against winning teams.

[Sauru]

mavs gonna take games 1 and 2 on the road before winning the series in 5

[Chaser7]

Seeping with such arrogance.

He clearly isn't a great playoff performer, because he is supposed to a be leader who can't lead his team consistently.

05-06: 27/12, 60%
04-05: 24/10, 51%
03-04: 27/12, 56%
02-03: 25/12, 59%
01-02: 28/13, 58%


Denying Dirk is a great playoff performer is denying what Dirk has actually done in favor of what you want Dirk to have done or whatever media meme you're currently latched onto.

Sure he's had some great series, but the last 2 series he's done awful.

Awful? I guess a 26/16 game on 62% shooting, 30/7 on 59%, and series-ending 29/15 on 57% is awful. Jordan's 1996 Finals was awful too, 31% and 26% FG in games four and six? Awful.

LMFAO Ok Benji, I'm arrogant. Ok, ok yeah. You sure like to spin facts like the media does, hahahah wow. Look at this

Playoffs 2007:
Game 1: 4/16, 25%
Game 2: 7/15, 47%
Game 3: 7/16, 43.75%
Game 4: 9/19, 47.3%
Game 5: 7/15, 47%
Game 6: 2/13, 15.3%

Which is an average of... 38% shooting for the series. Yeah that puts him in MJ's status. Did MJ ever shoot 2/13 in the decisive game of the series? No. Benji, you are unbelievable. I'm not saying he hasn't done well in the playoffs. he just doesn't do it consistently enough. The stats you selected are select games where he did really well, I could pull out even worse games that Nowtizki has had in the playoffs, but I'm selecting one entire series, so its not like picking and choosing from different series to find stats that only back me up. (aka you). He never shot above 50% in the 2007 playoffs, and in the 2 biggest games, Game 1 and 6, he shot just over 20%! 20%! How can you say that's not meaningful. Nowitzki has had many great playoff games as you have pointed out, but the fact that he could find ways to shoot better against a team that JUST snuck into the playoffs says a lot about him. Benji=wrong.

Also you suck at math:
Dirk Nowitzki shot 10-22 from the field in game 6 of the 2006 NBA finals, which is 45% not 57% you idiot. Also you forgot to mention his 2-14 performance in Game 5, and his 4-14 shooting performance in Game 1. So yeah, he played so well in such a critical game, (game 5). You're right Benji, as usual. haha.

[benji]

Did MJ ever shoot 2/13 in the decisive game of the series? No.

Can you prove this? I don't have game logs prior to 1992-93. He does have the following underwhelming decisive games...
1993, NYK game six: 8/24, 50% shooting
1995, CHA game five: 8/22, 39%
1996, SEA game six: 5/19, 45%
1997, ATL game five: 9/23, 48%
1997, MIA game five: 11/31, 42% (he also has 4/15 and 9/35 performances in that series...one equivalent to Dirk's Warriors series)
1998, IND game seven: 9/25, 39%

My point wasn't that Dirk is comparable to Jordan, nor that the lone game six in one series is relevant, but that like all great playoff performers, he does have bad games/series.

I'm not saying he hasn't done well in the playoffs.

But you did say "[Dirk] clearly isn't a great playoff performer" despite the evidence to the contrary.

The stats you selected are select games where he did really well, I could pull out even worse games that Nowtizki has had in the playoffs, but I'm selecting one entire series, so its not like picking and choosing from different sereis and choosing his best game (aka you).

I wasn't picking and choosing from different series, I chose the games above from the 2006 Finals. You may be focused on one series, but I'm focused on Dirk's entire playoff resume.

Nowitzki has had many great playoff games as you have pointed out, but the fact that he could find ways to shoot better against a team that JUST snuck into the playoffs says a lot about him. Benji=wrong.

I don't know how these things logically follow. My contention is that Dirk is a great playoff performer, and all the evidence indicates he is. You're trying to focus on one series and primarily the two games where he played did not meet this standard.

Also you suck at math:
Dirk Nowitzki shot 10-22 from the field in game 6 of the 2006 NBA finals, which is 45% not 57% you idiot

Except, I don't think all shots have the same value. I understand there are also three pointers and free throws. If your lack of understanding this makes me an idiot who sucks at math, so be it.

Also you forgot to mention his 2-14 performance in Game 5, and his 4-14 shooting performance in Game 1. So yeah, he played so well in such a critical game, (game 5).

I forgot? You were contending his Finals performance was "awful", I was pointing out he had some fantastic games. If I also mentioned those obvious lower quality games, then Dirk's NBA Finals performance would support the thesis that Michael Jordan's 1996 Finals was awful.

[Skills]

IMO, The Hornets will be more playoff-ready than the Mavs.
BUT I predict the Mavs will win it in 7. Jason Kidd will a rough time keeping up with CP3.

[Chaser7]

I'm not saying he hasn't done well in the playoffs.

But you did say "[Dirk] clearly isn't a great playoff performer" despite the evidence to the contrary.

The stats you selected are select games where he did really well, I could pull out even worse games that Nowtizki has had in the playoffs, but I'm selecting one entire series, so its not like picking and choosing from different sereis and choosing his best game (aka you).

I wasn't picking and choosing from different series, I chose the games above from the 2006 Finals. You may be focused on one series, but I'm focused on Dirk's entire playoff resume.

Except that you only chose his bad games, whereas I chose all the games in a series.

Also you suck at math:
Dirk Nowitzki shot 10-22 from the field in game 6 of the 2006 NBA finals, which is 45% not 57% you idiot

Except, I don't think all shots have the same value. I understand there are also three pointers and free throws. If your lack of understanding this makes me an idiot who sucks at math, so be it.

A) you didn't specify that it didn't include 3-pointers and free throws
B) 10/22 is field goal percentage including 3-pointers, not free throws
C) How did Dirk Nowitzki shoot 57% in that game, what categories did you use?
D) Who the fuck combines all the shots into one category? (Is that what you did?) I don't even get what you mean, I know there are free throws and 3-pointers as well.

Also you forgot to mention his 2-14 performance in Game 5, and his 4-14 shooting performance in Game 1. So yeah, he played so well in such a critical game, (game 5).

I forgot? You were contending his Finals performance was "awful", I was pointing out he had some fantastic games. If I also mentioned those obvious lower quality games, then Dirk's NBA Finals performance would support the thesis that Michael Jordan's 1996 Finals was awful.

Benji, there is no way you can argue against this. Dirk has choked the last 2 years, and has not shown he carry his team to the championship. He has been able to help his team in many series, but can never quite get over the hump. Great playoff performers are those who can carry his team to victory no matter what. The names Reggie Miller, Tim Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, MJ, Larry Bird all come to mind (including many many others). Dirk does not (well I guess this part is debatable).

[benji]

Except that you only chose his bad games, whereas I chose all the games in a series.

No I didn't. I looked at Dirk's entire playoff career, all 82 games, and saw he is a great playoff performer. He averages 25 and 11 on 57% shooting and 8.8% turnovers in the playoffs, he averages 26 and 10 on 58% and 9.1% during the regular season. He loses nothing in the playoffs, making him a great playoff performer.

Who the fuck combines all the shots into one category?

People who want to know how well a player shot.

Dirk made 10 field goals, and attempted 22. He also made one three pointer. And took eight trips to the line, hitting all of them. He racked up 29 points on 25.5 shots. (All free throw attempts are not equal, we must account for "and-ones.") How many two point shots do you have to make to score 29 points? 14.5. 14.5/25.5 = 56.86% or 57%.

Another example. In 05-06, Billups had a FG% of only 42%, so he sucks, as Bill Simmons said, right? He took 12.5 field goal attempts a game, making 5.2, but 2.3 of those makes were worth an extra point. He's already up to 51% from the floor. But Billups also gets to the line like mad, 6.4 times a game in 05-06, and shot 89.4% there. He scored 18.5 points a game, but took only 15.3 shots a game. So he actually shot 60.2%, good enough for sixth in the league.

Looking at FG% only tells you the guy made field goals, but not the value of the shots he took and made.

Benji, there is no way you can argue against this.

I can't argue that? No way? Against what? Dirk is a great player, he maintains his performance in the playoffs. Thus, he is a great playoff performer.

There certainly is no way you can argue that Dirk is not a great playoff performer without completely denying his career playoff performance.

Dirk has choked the last 2 years, and has not shown he carry his team to the championship. He has been able to help his team in many series, but can never quite get over the hump.

Dirk Nowitzki is not the entire Dallas Mavericks team. He is one player. Their best player, their most important player. But still only one player. He "carried" his team to the NBA Finals in 2006, and had he not been injured in 2003 likely would've done the same, even so, he is only one player on a team. Enough with the "best player is everything" meme already, we don't have to be zombies and repeat everything the media says.

You can define "choked" however you like, and certainly say Dirk "choked" even when he plays well but "choked" by not playing even better than he did, but this is far far too simplistic way to explain the Dallas Mavericks failure to win a championship while Dirk has played for them.

Great playoff performers are those who can carry his team to victory no matter what.

Everyone you named have lost playoff series. Therefore, they must not be great playoff performers? They didn't carry their teams to victory "no matter what" after all.

[Carmo]

lol, Benji is owning you Chaser....

Just wondering Benji...how come you aren't using your per stats that you love? I thought you weren't a fan of per game stats?

[Chaser7]

But those players actually made several several big shots, and most of those players listed won at least one title. I'm not repeating what the media has said, I've observed this on my own. I watched all the Warriors Mavs game, including game 3 in person. It was obvious how little Nowitzki could handle the pressure of carrying the Mavs in a do or die situation. He couldn't adapt to the Warriors defense, couldn't figure out ways to make his teammates better or even find ways to really contribute. I doubt you had any first hand experience Benji haha. I say Dirk has choked when he plays as poorly as he had done in Game 5 in the 2006 NBA finals (and as much I hate to admit it, he did push Wade in the back, thus even costing his team the victory. It is very obvious when you look at a good quality video, you see his hand push Wade in the back), and as bad of a series against the Warriors. He knew the 2007 playoffs were a chance to redeem himself for last season's failure and he blew it. That's called choking.

[benji]

But those players actually made several several big shots, and most of those players listed won at least one title.

You said "victory no matter what." Those players never achieved "victory no matter what."

You want to focus on one and a half series that support your thesis. I am far more interested in his entire seasons worth of playoff games. That's the difference here.

[Chaser7]

Ok Lol so the Mavs achieved sooo much playoff success the years before that then? I didn't realize they already had proved everything (like winning championships)

OMG Benji you are taking things too literally. When I said they won no matter what, I meant that in many situations when they should have lost, they brought their teams back. Has Dirk ever had a moment like Millers 8 points in 8.9 seconds against the Knicks in 1994? Has Dirk ever had moment where he scored on a layup, stole the ball and then scored another pullup (MJ)? Had Dirk ever found ways to make his teammates better when he isn't able to (Shaq with Wade)? No.

BTW I think this should be split into another thread, since it doesn't really relate to the Hornets series specifically..

[benji]

"Dallas Mavericks" is not a synonym for "Dirk Nowitzki."

[Chaser7]

Benji infer a little bit will you? Jesus christ! God... Did Dirk ever prove that he could carry his team to their goals in the playoffs before the last 2 seasons? (No)

[benji]

You are no longer discussing anything relevant to the question of whether or not Dirk Nowitzki is a great playoff performer. Instead you are just endlessly throwing out memes such as "he didn't carry his team," "he doesn't make his teammates better," or "the best player is the entire team" that are completely meaningless.

Dirk Nowitzki is a great playoff performer. If you want to keep looking to one and a half series to justify an argument contrary to the full scope of evidence, that is perfectly within your freedoms. And if you want to look to ten second segments of games to completely define a player, that too resides within your freedoms.

The evidence is clear, continued denial of it slowly grows old.

[BigKaboom2]

So their goal was to win the NBA title (like every team not in the lottery), and because the Mavs didn't win the NBA title in either of the past two seasons their best player must have choked? That leaves 15 star players that have choked in every playoffs, it seems.

[Chaser7]

You are no longer discussing anything relevant to the question of whether or not Dirk Nowitzki is a great playoff performer. Instead you are just endlessly throwing out memes such as "he didn't carry his team," "he doesn't make his teammates better," or "the best player is the entire team" that are completely meaningless.

Dirk Nowitzki is a great playoff performer. If you want to keep looking to one and a half series to justify an argument contrary to the full scope of evidence, that is perfectly within your freedoms. And if you want to look to ten second segments of games to completely define a player, that too resides within your freedoms.

The evidence is clear, continued denial of it slowly grows old.

Oh right using the 2 most recent playoff series is an awful way to gage how Nowitzki is now as playoff player. You're right, the last 2 years certainly don't mean anything at all. And using the final 10 seconds of a game, aka the most important moment is an awful way to determine to see if someone choked.

And whatever, I'm not going to argue anymore if BigKaboom and you are now starting to gang up on me. You are free to think Nowitizki is a great playoff performer, someone who really knows to how to take over critical games. Nowitzki certainly has had the supporting cast, he should have won the championship by now, since he is such a great playoff performer.

[BigKaboom2]

CHECK AND.....MATE.

*high fives Benji*

[Chaser7]

I don't agree with you at all that he is a good playoff performer, so if that is what your "Check and Mate" refers to BigKaboom, you haven't won. Lol.

[BigKaboom2]

check and... mate.

If you don't agree, then explain why you don't agree instead of saying omfg Dirk is a choker he sucks he can't carry his team. Benji gave you endless amounts of statistics that make your argument look foolish, but you ignore them and start telling him real FG% is useless or something.

You think being a good playoff performer involves highlight reel plays and other memorable segments, whereas Benji and I value overall performance based on what we deem to be useful statistics. The overall performance is not always obvious just from watching the game and seeing someone dunk over a seven footer a few times, for example.

Maybe you want to say he's not a good CLUTCH player or something like that...but you'd still be pretty out to lunch.

Check out this game: http://www.nba.com/games/20060522/DALSAS/recap.html

Game 7 against the Spurs, he had 37 points, 15 rebounds, shot 11-20 for 68% including 15/16 from the line. He played FORTY NINE minutes in the game, and converted a three-point play with 21 seconds left to tie the game and send it to overtime. They went on to win, bringing Dirk's record in Game 7s to 4-0.

I just don't know what point you're looking to make or where your evidence is for it.

[Fizdale]

Mavs in 7, Book it.

[Chaser7]

My evidence that Dirk has choked the last 2 years? Well, uhm.. pretty much the entire playoff series vs. the Warriors, and especially in game 6 facing a must-win situation, he choked and shot 2-13. And no, I never said it had to do with highlight reel dunks, where did I ever say that? lol. I've given you guys statistics about his shooting percentages from last year and the in the critical game 5 against the Heat in 2006 (and game 1 for that matter). Plus... what about his defense? The nickname "Irk" doesn't come from nothing. I've explained earlier, read the posts from beginning...

[Lamrock]

*nevermind this post*