NBA Finals: Lakers (1) vs Celtics (4)

Now that's a bit unfair. Sometimes the refs are very professional and call as fair of game as they are capable (i.e. still anti-Lakers but not overtly so like game two) such as they did in game one and the first two games (and early in game five) of the WCF.

But there are certain crews and games where the refs can't get over their seething hatred of Kobe Bryant and they call a strongly anti-Laker game like game two, or games three, four and the fourth quarter of game five of the WCF.

I think in those kinds of situations, everyone can agree that something needs to be done to rectify this. And that David Stern, or as I like to call him The Commish, should step in and right the wrongs of the prior game. A good way to do this would be to open game three by having the Lakers take five or six free throws to even things out. Then have the tip-off and call a fair game from there. This also helps that when Kobe Bryant has another history making game the Lakers have a bit of a cushion from the oncoming onslaught of the referees and their Celtics enforcers.

Even if the Celtics got the benefit of some timely calls, the Lakers were still very much in the game, which was very much up for grabs until basically the last minute. The Lakers still had the edge in free throws (that was much larger before the intentional fouls in the last minute) and had been whistled for fewer fouls overall until the intentional fouls evened things up by the end of the game.

Free throws don't say anything about the referees, though, at least on their own.

Artest's errors are fine examples of how the Lakers came up short as much as they were affected by a couple of calls.

Absolutely. Why the hell did they even sign that fucker? How much longer are we stuck with him?

At the end of the day, it's easier to claim referee incompetence and point to bad calls here and there rather than admit to bad plays and bad shots here and there.

At the end of the day, though, Kobe had two or three fouls, depending on the exact rule on the offensive foul, and had to spend time on the bench that he shouldn't have. Even if there were bad calls in the Lakers' favour, they weren't forcing Ray Allen or Paul Pierce to the bench.

and because we often had kids and teenagers refereeing, we got some really bad officiating at times and a few refs that didn't care for us to boot

That's always fun. A couple of years back one ref called me for a travel purely because the opposing coach told him to. It was close enough that I wouldn't have minded the call being made, but to ignore it, let me stand there for a couple of seconds, have the opposing coach yell 'Travel!' and then make the call is just not on.

The officials are not going to be perfect, one can't expect 100% accuracy, so you can't depend on that to win games.

Except that it's the NBA, and they should be damn close to perfect. If LeBron, Kobe, Wade, Melo, etc fuck up, everyone yells at them, but if the officials fuck up fans of the team that got screwed to whatever degree yell at them, and everyone else yells at the fans to stop their whining. Two of those fouls on Kobe were absolutely horrible calls that shouldn't be made by any official anywhere, and not getting the out-of-bounds play correct late despite looking at the video replay is just absurd. Pau pushing Garnett's hand is irrelevant. I've been watching the '94 Finals the last couple of days, and on several occasions Ewing's thrown the ball off a Rockets player when falling out of bounds. Arguing that the ball should go to the Celtics because Garnett's hand was pushed by Gasol's is the same as arguing that the Rockets should get the ball because Ewing caused it to go out. It's not about who causes it to go out, it's about who touched it last. End of story.

referees certainly do need to be held accountable

This. I think a large part of the criticism they get, and the conspiracy theories that arise, comes from this not appearing to happen, if it does at all. Nobody can talk about it to the media, and nobody ever publicly admits that the wrong call was made. Everything with the referees and their mistakes happens behind closed doors. The NBA insists on treating them as though they're absolutely infallible.

Artest's errors are fine examples of how the Lakers came up short as much as they were affected by a couple of calls.

Absolutely. Why the hell did they even sign that fucker? How much longer are we stuck with him?

Laker fans were yelling how they were instant champions back when they first got him now they all hate him for the head case he has always been

At the end of the day, it's easier to claim referee incompetence and point to bad calls here and there rather than admit to bad plays and bad shots here and there.

At the end of the day, though, Kobe had two or three fouls, depending on the exact rule on the offensive foul, and had to spend time on the bench that he shouldn't have. Even if there were bad calls in the Lakers' favour, they weren't forcing Ray Allen or Paul Pierce to the bench.


no pierce or allen did not get forced to the bench but kg did. plus like i said before that one blown call against kobe was made up the very next trip down

Free throws don't say anything about the referees, though, at least on their own.

Indeed, that was an over-simplification. But the foul and free throw discrepancy throughout most of the game shows that the Lakers were certainly getting their fair share of calls too. For an officiating crew that was - in some people's eyes - biased towards the Celtics, they were certainly whistling the Celtics for a lot of fouls and giving the Lakers a lot of free throws. If their intention was to hand the game to Boston, outside of a couple of the fouls on Kobe and the other questionable calls, they didn't do a particularly good job (not to mention Boston kept trying to blow golden opportunities).

I should also note before I go any further that my previous post was in response to some of the more homerish comments I've read elsewhere rather than what's been said in this thread.

Absolutely. Why the hell did they even sign that fucker? How much longer are we stuck with him?

Four more years. Of course, as Ludden notes, when he's good he's well worth the investment. Great highs, frustrating lows.

At the end of the day, though, Kobe had two or three fouls, depending on the exact rule on the offensive foul, and had to spend time on the bench that he shouldn't have. Even if there were bad calls in the Lakers' favour, they weren't forcing Ray Allen or Paul Pierce to the bench.

True, but the Lakers were still in the game right up to the end with Kobe on the floor in the final minutes of a close game that they could've won. I'm not arguing the questionable calls, but did they really cost the Lakers the game any more than their own miscues? Even with Kobe being forced to the bench by foul trouble, even with that out of bounds call that wasn't overturned, in those last couple of minutes I could see Boston running out of steam and Kobe (now back on the floor) wrapping up the win for the Lakers. It didn't turn out that way, but it easily could've. It was still up for grabs in the last minute or so.

On the subject of forcing players to the bench though, KG was certainly forced to the bench for the Celtics (though with his struggles in the first two games that was arguably a blessing in disguise) and I thought some of the fouls on Ray Allen in Game 1 were a bit ticky-tack. Of course, there were some Lakers fans elsewhere complaining about the referees being biased towards the Celtics in Game 1, too. Go figure.

That's always fun. A couple of years back one ref called me for a travel purely because the opposing coach told him to. It was close enough that I wouldn't have minded the call being made, but to ignore it, let me stand there for a couple of seconds, have the opposing coach yell 'Travel!' and then make the call is just not on.

Had that happen when I was playing too. It's not good for the local comp and I always thought it was a big mistake to have kids referee above their own age division and games involving teams from their own clubs, because there were incidents.

Except that it's the NBA, and they should be damn close to perfect. If LeBron, Kobe, Wade, Melo, etc fuck up, everyone yells at them, but if the officials fuck up fans of the team that got screwed to whatever degree yell at them, and everyone else yells at the fans to stop their whining. Two of those fouls on Kobe were absolutely horrible calls that shouldn't be made by any official anywhere, and not getting the out-of-bounds play correct late despite looking at the video replay is just absurd. Pau pushing Garnett's hand is irrelevant. I've been watching the '94 Finals the last couple of days, and on several occasions Ewing's thrown the ball off a Rockets player when falling out of bounds. Arguing that the ball should go to the Celtics because Garnett's hand was pushed by Gasol's is the same as arguing that the Rockets should get the ball because Ewing caused it to go out. It's not about who causes it to go out, it's about who touched it last. End of story.

Ideally, yes, but where are we drawing the line for being closing enough to perfection? If we can pick five or six calls that are bad or at least highly questionable for each team, in all fairness that's not a huge percentage of the total calls made throughout the game. I think in at least a couple of cases you can chalk it up to a mixture of a) human error, b) limitations in the instant replay rules that would benefit from even further expansion and c) players being adept at selling contact.

As far as the out of bounds call goes I do agree, the Celtics caught a break there and I was very surprised that it wasn't overturned after the replay. I can understand if there was also a clear loose ball foul on Gasol and they decided to call it out of bounds rather than hit Gasol with another personal and the Lakers with another team foul, but it wasn't one of those situations. Of course, there's arguably a happy medium for situations like that: a jump ball. But I expected that call to be overturned when they showed the replay and it surprised me greatly they decided against it. They got it wrong there, even with the replay.

This. I think a large part of the criticism they get, and the conspiracy theories that arise, comes from this not appearing to happen, if it does at all. Nobody can talk about it to the media, and nobody ever publicly admits that the wrong call was made. Everything with the referees and their mistakes happens behind closed doors. The NBA insists on treating them as though they're absolutely infallible.

The NBA has actually acknowledged bad calls in recent years, which is good but it does present another problem: it doesn't really solve anything. The decision still stands even if the NBA admits fault on the part of the referees, there's no do-over and they look almost as bad coming out and saying it as they do when they say nothing. Perhaps there could be harsher repercussions for the officials and these could be made public as with player fines/suspensions, but there'll still be grumbling over the result that stands.

no pierce or allen did not get forced to the bench but kg did. plus like i said before that one blown call against kobe was made up the very next trip down

Kevin Garnett is not one of Boston's best two players. Not to mention I don't recall any questionable calls against him.

How does a blown call on one end that forces Kobe Bryant to the bench get made up for by a correct call on the other end on Ray Allen, who hits a three on the very next possession?

Indeed, that was an over-simplification. But the foul and free throw discrepancy throughout most of the game shows that the Lakers were certainly getting their fair share of calls too. For an officiating crew that was - in some people's eyes - biased towards the Celtics, they were certainly whistling the Celtics for a lot of fouls and giving the Lakers a lot of free throws. If their intention was to hand the game to Boston, outside of a couple of the fouls on Kobe and the other questionable calls, they didn't do a particularly good job (not to mention Boston kept trying to blow golden opportunities).

I should also note before I go any further that my previous post was in response to some of the more homerish comments I've read elsewhere rather than what's been said in this thread.

Naturally, I'm not arguing that the referees were biased in any way, just that they made three awful calls and one very questionable call, three of which led to Kobe Bryant sitting on the bench with the other leading to the Celtics getting possession late in the game.

Of course, as Ludden notes, when he's good he's well worth the investment. Great highs, frustrating lows.

Those highs being the one game-winner he hit through sheer luck (in a game that, worst-case, would have gone to overtime anyway) that he only needed to hit because he threw up an idiotic shot? Not impressed.

[quot]True, but the Lakers were still in the game right up to the end with Kobe on the floor in the final minutes of a close game that they could've won.[/quote]
On the other hand, had Kobe not been on the bench all that time the game might not've been close at all, and Ron Artest wouldn't have been able to throw it away. Or maybe Kobe has a bad game and throws the offense off, and they lose anyway. You can't ever know, but there's no doubt the referees influenced the result, which they shouldn't do.

Ideally, yes, but where are we drawing the line for being closing enough to perfection? If we can pick five or six calls that are bad or at least highly questionable for each team, in all fairness that's not a huge percentage of the total calls made throughout the game.

It's not so much about how many they get wrong, but what those calls are and how wrong the call is. The out of bounds play, as well as Kobe's offensive foul against Ray Allen and foul on Rajon Rondo when he fell out of bounds, were blind-guy-in-the-back-row-knows-you-fucked-up wrong. Zero errors of that magnitude are allowable. Whilst certainly you can't expect them to always get it right, you do have to expect them not to get it that wrong.

b) limitations in the instant replay rules that would benefit from even further expansion

Do you have anything specific in mind here? Only one of the awful calls in game two could have changed under replay, and that was already a reviewable situation.

they look almost as bad coming out and saying it as they do when they say nothing.

I don't believe that to be true. Saying nothing is implicitly supporting the call, which they shouldn't be doing.

kg may not score like he used to but he is still very important to the team. him going to the bench does hurt us dont be mistaken. the 3rd foul on kobe was questionable for sure and it does not have the same effect since he had to sit on the bench and allen didnt but all allen did was what every other player in the nba does (including your never can be wrong lakers) and acted like he got hit alot worse than he did

Oh man, this is one of the few games in his career where Kobe had to sit out early with foul-trouble, so it has to be the refs fault!!!!!
Kobe coming a tad too late on defense or even getting a questionable call is not legal!! You just can't allow to have controversial calls on superstars!!! The whole game shifts with these superstars, they win alone or the rest of the team looses without their superstar!! Kobe limited to 34 (!) minutes is a disaster for the Lakers!!!! Garnett limited to 24 minutes, no problem, Cs!! It's the refs fault that Kobe only shot 2-7 from downtown, because he could not find his rhythm with all those strange calls on him!!!!!

Watch out fellow Kobe foot soldiers, I think this guy above is being sarcastic and is not truly one of our brigade.

Man. That's the dude that said MJ is Kobe without 3pt range ang Lebron a Kobe lite. Don't be surprised to see him blaming the refs for the shit Kobe game.

The Heat championship was a give away indeed, concur with you on that one.

For the second part of your post: You're a whiney little bitch. Kthx.

Guys, you guys have it all wrong.

Watch out fellow Kobe foot soldiers, I think this guy above is being sarcastic and is not truly one of our brigade.

Man. That's the dude that said MJ is Kobe without 3pt range ang Lebron a Kobe lite. Don't be surprised to see him blaming the refs for the shit Kobe game.

The Heat championship was a give away indeed, concur with you on that one.

For the second part of your post: You're a whiney little bitch. Kthx.

Guys, you guys have it all wrong.

explain

Haha he's a Wade fan, what more do you need explained?

i just wanted to see him try

Just read Koberulz' posts & replace the word "Kobe" with "Wade". Done.

yup that works, thanks

kg may not score like he used to but he is still very important to the team. him going to the bench does hurt us dont be mistaken. the 3rd foul on kobe was questionable for sure and it does not have the same effect since he had to sit on the bench and allen didnt but all allen did was what every other player in the nba does (including your never can be wrong lakers) and acted like he got hit alot worse than he did

Questionable? It was awful. Which two calls against Garnett were that bad?

Oh man, this is one of the few games in his career where Kobe had to sit out early with foul-trouble, so it has to be the refs fault!!!!!
Kobe coming a tad too late on defense or even getting a questionable call is not legal!! You just can't allow to have controversial calls on superstars!!! The whole game shifts with these superstars, they win alone or the rest of the team looses without their superstar!! Kobe limited to 34 (!) minutes is a disaster for the Lakers!!!! Garnett limited to 24 minutes, no problem, Cs!! It's the refs fault that Kobe only shot 2-7 from downtown, because he could not find his rhythm with all those strange calls on him!!!!!

Did you watch the game?

you are right. it was a bad call every single time. every game too. i dont think he has ever tried to sell a play, gasol either

Just read Koberulz' posts & replace the word "Kobe" with "Wade". Done.

Hey! I'm not trying to ignore its fair share of controversy on finals but nonetheless, it was a good series and most importantly, the Heat were the better team regardless of officiating.

i was gonna give you more credit than this kobe douchebag but if you keep talking like that i might have to reconsider lol

you are right. it was a bad call every single time. every game too. i dont think he has ever tried to sell a play, gasol either

Finally, you get it. You're ready to be fully converted. What size Kobe jersey do you wear? And shoe size?

bigger the better, i want to be able to swim in the awesomeness that is kobe. can i get it in purple though?

Lolz...

Game 3 about to start. my guess is BOS by 10.

you are right. it was a bad call every single time. every game too. i dont think he has ever tried to sell a play, gasol either

...I pinpointed four calls. Three of which were definitely wrong, one of which was highly questionable. How is that 'every single time...every single game'?

On the other hand, had Kobe not been on the bench all that time the game might not've been close at all, and Ron Artest wouldn't have been able to throw it away. Or maybe Kobe has a bad game and throws the offense off, and they lose anyway. You can't ever know, but there's no doubt the referees influenced the result, which they shouldn't do.

Absolutely, plenty of what-ifs in that game. But the Lakers were still in that game with a very good chance to win right up to the end, even holding the lead with just under two minutes to go (if I recall correctly). I won't dispute that there were bad calls and that if nothing else they presented the Lakers with a challenge - as all bad calls do - but it was still a winnable game for them.

As for the officials having influence on the game, that's inevitable since they're the ones making the calls (which is their job, after all). Did they really influence the game in the final minute when it was up for grabs? Kobe was on the floor with a chance to take over, the score was close and as I said before, the Lakers were leading late in the game. Their bad decisions shaped the game up to that point but with the close scores and the ties in the final minutes, it was anyone's game to win. I think it's only fair that the Lakers themselves share in the responsibility for the loss because the officiating isn't going to be perfect and like I said before, you can't rely on that to win.

It's not so much about how many they get wrong, but what those calls are and how wrong the call is. The out of bounds play, as well as Kobe's offensive foul against Ray Allen and foul on Rajon Rondo when he fell out of bounds, were blind-guy-in-the-back-row-knows-you-fucked-up wrong. Zero errors of that magnitude are allowable. Whilst certainly you can't expect them to always get it right, you do have to expect them not to get it that wrong.

That's the ideal, but it's also expecting perfection of the referees and I don't we can feasibly expect that of any human being. Referees aren't going to be immune to bad angles or the influence of players flopping and selling contact. In some cases, we do have a better view than the referees, which brings us to...

Do you have anything specific in mind here? Only one of the awful calls in game two could have changed under replay, and that was already a reviewable situation.

That's why I'd expand the instant replay a little further to allow review of other calls that are left up to referee judgement, maybe even allow calls to be challenged so long as it's within reason, and perhaps similar to the way disputes are handled in tennis teams would forfeit the right to challenge calls for the rest of the quarter if they're wrong...or simply place a limit on the amount of calls you can challenge, similar to timeouts. It would provide a means of cleaning up the bad calls without slowing the game down, since teams couldn't dispute anything and everything; it'd be something reserved for particularly significant calls.

I don't believe that to be true. Saying nothing is implicitly supporting the call, which they shouldn't be doing.

It's worse when nothing is said, but not by much. The result still stands and everyone with objections to the call is still miffed that something the league admits was wrong happened in the first place.

Everything should be done to prevent bad calls and referees should be held accountable especially on big screw-ups. But questionable calls and flat out bad calls are a part of the game, just as they exist in pretty much any team sport and something that need to be played through. The referees shouldn't decide the game but teams ideally shouldn't place themselves in a position to have the game decided by the referees and ultimately share in the responsibility.

In any event, what's done is done and Game 2 is behind us and Game 3 has just begun. Celtics off to a good start.

Ron Artest: 1 turnover, 1 bad shot, 2 fouls. Well done sir.

12-5.
Bos's 12 points from kg and rondo 6 each. What an awesome start by these two. Bos's D looking solid as well.

Hoping this to be a close game though...