well, the cavs are out, where will LeBron be in 2011?

[benji]

Heck, I would suggest I'm as talented as LeBron if not more;

Quoted for Jae.

[J@3]

...the only reason I'm not in the NBA is that I'm 6'1" and all of 160 lbs

Holy christ...

[Rip32]

If this isn't a joke (a bad one at that) this thread could arc towards the HoF really quick.

Heck, I would suggest I'm as talented as LeBron if not more; the only reason I'm not in the NBA is that I'm 6'1" and all of 160 lbs.

If Muggsy Bogues, a guy less talented than you and LeBron, can step into the NBA at 5'3" 132lb and average 10 assists per game, than you must be the atheist king of basketball.

[koberulz]

Firstly, there is no God, he was just born that way. Even if there was, being big isn't a talent. He's big. He can't help that. He can maximise the potential of his body, but he didn't get to be 6'8" by practising. Physique is not a choice, and therefore can neither be a talent nor a flaw. Why should the fact that he's learned to push his way into the lane mean we're not allowed to point out that he can't actually do anything else?

This is awesome. I too always thought Earl Boykins was the most talented player on planet earth.

Did I say he was?

I do like how you completely ignored the fact that LeBron is failing to live up to his potential in far more than just the Celtics series, though.

You may have seen it but I didn't, so it musn't have happened!
lol, yeah.

No, I haven't seen it so I can't base an opinion on it. If I didn't see it, how can I even know it happened until it was brought up in this thread, after I'd already made the point that its occurrence may have contradicted? How can I know what LeBron was like in that capacity? All I've seen of LeBron is his NBA play, and therefore it's the only thing I'm qualified to have an opinion about.

Talent is not a choice. It's something that you already have. LeBron is a 6'8" 240 lb. person that can barrel into the the lane. Not too many people have that body and height and if they do, not a lot of person can properly use that physique either.
Maybe you are referring to skill.

Maybe I am, if you must argue semantics. The point remains that LeBron has very little beyond his athleticism that allows him to be successful, a point NovU seems to have some sort of problem with.

If Muggsy Bogues, a guy less talented than you and LeBron, can step into the NBA at 5'3" 132lb and average 10 assists per game, than you must be the atheist king of basketball.

I've only seen one game in which Muggsy played, and it was ages ago, but I have trouble believing he was less talented than LeBron.

As for me, I can dribble passably, know where the hoop is, know how to use a screen, and shoot 90% from the free throw line. The latter two are not things LeBron is familiar with. I'm absolutely nothing special, but if I had LeBron's body I'd have no trouble.

[Dee.]

You're saying if you would have LeBron's body you could average the same stats in the NBA ?

[NovU]

I do like how you completely ignored the fact that LeBron is failing to live up to his potential in far more than just the Celtics series, though.

Because, he did live up to his potential untill the series against the Celtics this season. I don't see how he wasn't, especially since Lebron heavily was favored to win it all untill that very last series. Like I said, we'd be focusing more on his upside not on downside, if he was still playing. Come on, koberulz. You know I get your point in your arguments on his flaws.

Maybe I am, if you must argue semantics. The point remains that LeBron has very little beyond his athleticism that allows him to be successful, a point NovU seems to have some sort of problem with.

Novu says... Let's say I do but the OBVIOUS point remains same, he can play point guard to power forward position in 6'8" freak body which makes him extremely talented and skilled. No? If then, I stand corrected. Besdies, I wasn't arguing about his flaws, but I was simply giving "good outweighs bad" sentiment in my opinions.

[shadowgrin]

The point remains that LeBron has very little beyond his athleticism that allows him to be successful, a point NovU seems to have some sort of problem with.

Just to clarify, so your contention is LeBron's future success based on his skill set rather than his (freakish athletic) talent? If it's the former I'm inclined to agree with you though I'd call bullshite on hypotheticals like this...

As for me, I can dribble passably, know where the hoop is, know how to use a screen, and shoot 90% from the free throw line. The latter two are not things LeBron is familiar with. I'm absolutely nothing special, but if I had LeBron's body I'd have no trouble.

...since such a thing can't happen and therefore what he has done on the court or comparing him to other NBA (or professional basketball) players are the only thing qualified to form a basis regarding our opinions about him.

[koberulz]

I do like how you completely ignored the fact that LeBron is failing to live up to his potential in far more than just the Celtics series, though.

Because, he did live up to his potential untill the series against the Celtics this season. I don't see how he wasn't, especially since Lebron heavily was favored to win it all untill that very last series. Like I said, we'd be focusing more on his upside not on downside, if he was still playing. Come on, koberulz. You know I get your point in your arguments on his flaws.

If you got my point about his flaws, you wouldn't say "he did live up to his potential", because my point is that he didn't. Not in the Celtics series, not before the Celtics series. Never.

Maybe I am, if you must argue semantics. The point remains that LeBron has very little beyond his athleticism that allows him to be successful, a point NovU seems to have some sort of problem with.

Novu says... Let's say I do but the OBVIOUS point remains same, he can play point guard to power forward position in 6'8" freak body which makes him extremely talented and skilled. No?

No.

[Jackal]

You know any other 6'8 players who can handle the ball, pass and barrel themselves to the hoop like he can?

It's still skill you nincompoop.

I don't know why I bothered, you believe that you're more skilled than he is so...yeah.

[koberulz]

The point remains that LeBron has very little beyond his athleticism that allows him to be successful, a point NovU seems to have some sort of problem with.

Just to clarify, so your contention is LeBron's future success based on his skill set rather than his (freakish athletic) talent? If it's the former I'm inclined to agree with you though I'd call bullshite on hypotheticals like this...

As for me, I can dribble passably, know where the hoop is, know how to use a screen, and shoot 90% from the free throw line. The latter two are not things LeBron is familiar with. I'm absolutely nothing special, but if I had LeBron's body I'd have no trouble.

...since such a thing can't happen and therefore what he has done on the court or comparing him to other NBA (or professional basketball) players are the only thing qualified to form a basis regarding our opinions about him.

Clearly it's a completely ridiculous comparison. The point I'm making is that he lacks some pretty basic skills that aren't that hard to pick up (particularly such things as using a screen properly).

You know any other 6'8 players who can handle the ball, pass and barrel themselves to the hoop like he can?

It's still skill you nincompoop.

It is, yes, but he should be far, far better than he is, and is nowhere near his potential, and not just in the Celtics series.

[benji]

It is, yes, but he should be far, far better than he is, and is nowhere near his potential, and not just in the Celtics series.

He's already the best player in the league and one of the historical greats. If he gets far, far better then we should just shut down the league as there's no point. (Or kick him out.)

[shadowgrin]

basic skills that aren't that hard to pick up (particularly such things as using a screen properly)

When Larry Brown was coaching the Knicks he once said that most of his players, even some of the the vets, don't even know how to set or use a screen properly. It's not that far fetched to see NBA players lacking certain basic basketball skills (granted that it was the Knicks, but still). Those players who aren't 'complete' skill-wise still end up in the NBA because they have a talent or skill that is needed or are far greater in comparison to others.

In LeBron's case it's his physical talent, and skill in using that. Just by depending on those alone he already managed to be one of the most dominant players in the league much less in NBA history (when he doesn't give up anyway). I don't know what are your full expectations of him but I'm guessing one of those is that he improves his basic skills.
All great players have flaws that can be pointed out in their game or career and LeBron is no exception. Shooting FTs, using a screen, post game, and (the new one) giving up on a game - these are just some of the things that people have pointed out as his flaws, the same as you did koberulz. Despite the lack of some basic basketball skills that one would expect from a supposedly 'great player', LeBron still dominates the league (when he's not quitting on a game).

It's safe to say he's extremely talented and skilled because despite his flaws he still managed to be the best or one of the best players today or in history, statistically speaking.

[J@3]

I'm not LeBron's size but I'd make a decent sized SG/small SF in the NBA. I also can dribble passably, can see the hoop, use screens (AND SET THEM DOUBLE THREAT) and shoot 90% from the FT line. Where's my agent!

Seriously though, there is nothing LeBron does that is poor or even below average in any way, shape or form. Even his worst skill (shooting threes) is better than average. There have been bigger/more athletic guys than LeBron before who haven't even cracked the NBA let alone destroy it like he does. I can't stand him but seriously, the guy is a freak and one/two shit games in the play-offs shouldn't diminish that. Especially if Delonte was banging his mother. Hell, look at the garbage Dwight threw up in the Bobcats series and 2 of the Celtics games.

[koberulz]

basic skills that aren't that hard to pick up (particularly such things as using a screen properly)

When Larry Brown was coaching the Knicks he once said that most of his players, even some of the the vets, don't even know how to set or use a screen properly. It's not that far fetched to see NBA players lacking certain basic basketball skills (granted that it was the Knicks, but still). Those players who aren't 'complete' skill-wise still end up in the NBA because they have a talent or skill that is needed or are far greater in comparison to others.

In LeBron's case it's his physical talent, and skill in using that. Just by depending on those alone he already managed to be one of the most dominant players in the league much less in NBA history (when he doesn't give up anyway). I don't know what are your full expectations of him but I'm guessing one of those is that he improves his basic skills.
All great players have flaws that can be pointed out in their game or career and LeBron is no exception. Shooting FTs, using a screen, post game, and (the new one) giving up on a game - these are just some of the things that people have pointed out as his flaws, the same as you did koberulz. Despite the lack of some basic basketball skills that one would expect from a supposedly 'great player', LeBron still dominates the league (when he's not quitting on a game).

It's safe to say he's extremely talented and skilled because despite his flaws he still managed to be the best or one of the best players today or in history, statistically speaking.

Sure, but the fact remains he's an incomplete player who, despite what NovU may claim, has come nowhere near the fullest extent of his potential. That's all I'm saying.

Even his worst skill (shooting threes) is better than average

33% is better than average? If it is, it's because the average is far below where it should be.

Hell, look at the garbage Dwight threw up in the Bobcats series and 2 of the Celtics games.

I'm not as thrilled with Dwight as most people seem to be, either.

[benji]

Shooting 33% on three-pointers is equivalent to shooting 50% on two-pointers.

[NovU]

Sure, but the fact remains he's an incomplete player who, despite what NovU may claim, has come nowhere near the fullest extent of his potential. That's all I'm saying.

Agreed. The fact is that Lebron is an incomplete player as well as 100% of fellow NBAers along with anyone that has played a game of basketball. Hope now you get off my back, sir.

Anyways, on more relevant matter...
http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/05/27/1 ... scuss.html

Wade also questioned the Chicago Bulls' loyalty to former players in an interview with the Chicago Tribune.

followed by...

``I see Michael Jordan is not there. Scottie Pippen is not there. You know these guys are not a part [of the organization]. So that is probably one of the biggest things for me, because I'm a very loyal person.''

I wanna hear what Andrew has to say about this, or Air Gordie. Him saying such things can affect Lebron or other fellow FA's decisions, I hafta assume.

... It's not just a me-situation here. We all have to look and see what each other is thinking. I understand you have to have a great team, a great supporting cast around you. That's all I want. My ego is not that big. I just want to win.''

Honestly, I don't believe this. If Wade gives up 30 million dollars(which pretty much is his last big fat contract) just to pursue the wins in other city, I'll admire this kid. I think he'll stay in Miami and is trying to pursuade others to come here. Him also saying that his ego is not that big makes sense and should be appealing to those who want spotlights while winning at the same time.

[koberulz]

Sure, but the fact remains he's an incomplete player who, despite what NovU may claim, has come nowhere near the fullest extent of his potential. That's all I'm saying.

Agreed. The fact is that Lebron is an incomplete player as well as 100% of fellow NBAers along with anyone that has played a game of basketball. Hope now you get off my back, sir.

Obviously there's always something that can be improved on for any given player, but LeBron isn't even close to complete. Your statement that he lived up to his potential outside of the Boston series is simply wrong.

[NovU]

I will just say that I was given a feeling that you were trying too hard to diminish what Lebron offers as a player.

Your word, "Lebron's potential" may differ on all kinds of individual standard. Sure he can improve here and there. It's just playing with words from there though...

He's already a stat monster + the best player in the league, the terms like "shoud be far far better" "limited" "overrated"... I disagree ofc.

[koberulz]

You don't agree that he's limited as a player? Do you watch him play much?

[benji]

So your argument is that LeBron's potential is that he could be the greatest player ever, because he has not yet achieved this at age 25, he is overrated, should be far better, and you're better at basketball than him.

So what players HAVE lived up to their potential?

[NovU]

You don't agree that he's limited as a player? Do you watch him play much?

Lolz... Isn't he the most complete player in the league at this moment? If the word "limited" applies to him, I guess everyone is fuckedly limited. If you go by that logic, fine.

[koberulz]

You don't agree that he's limited as a player? Do you watch him play much?

Lolz... Isn't he the most complete player in the league at this moment?

No.

[NovU]

Then perhaps you can tell me who is, so I can play your game too.
But then again... I am sick and tired of this pointless discussion.

[benji]

Who in the NBA is living up to their potential? Who in NBA history lived up to their potential?

[koberulz]

Then perhaps you can tell me who is, so I can play your game too.
But then again... I am sick and tired of this pointless discussion.

Regardless of who is, anyone who can do more than one thing is a more complete player than LeBron. All he does is penetrate. That's it. That doesn't make him a complete player, that makes him a one-dimensional player. Which is why he fails so spectacularly when that aspect of his game isn't working, rather than being able to go to the post, spot up for perimeter jumpshots, or get to the line and shoot a high percentage.