Anthony, Nuggets look ready to part ways

[Andrew]

That's because Melo can't really be considered a big.

Well, yes. That's my point, the Bulls need Noah more than they need Melo.

[Lamrock]

but there's no doubt he's a solidified superstar figure in prime atm.

What? No doubt? Melo is all hype. He's a piss-poor defender and slightly above average scorer (cue you arguing "28 PPG is slightly above average? There is no doubt that he and Rose are as good than Wade and LeBron") who takes a ridiculous amount of shots. He's not team-killingly bad, but he's hardly a difference maker (see: every game Melo misses where the Nuggets play just as well). Melo would have the same reputation as 2007 T-Mac if not for Billups and Nene carrying Denver to the conference finals in 09.

Granted, you have one good point. NBA players aren't known for their intellect, and they could buy into the hype and join this hypothetical 40-50 win Rose-Melo-Boozer squad. ("Man, I used to play against him and it was tough stopping him from taking contested 2pt jumpers, missing threes and getting to the line almost, but not quite at will")` Getting Melo would put them in a great position for the Chris Mihm sweepstakes.

Even Tom Thibodeau can't make Rose - Korver - Melo - Boozer - K. Thomas (?) a top 20 defensive team. With Melo's playmaking inability, and Rose's relative mediocrity, its hard to see them as a fearsome offensive team either.

[The X]

Andrew, I actually don't think Melo is good fit for the Bulls (but is for Knicks). I do like what Noah brings to the the Bulls' team. If he goes, the whole dynamics will change. I just find it funny that Bulls fans are so enamored by Taj Gibson.

I can only speak for myself but for me it's simply having a solid backup power forward in the rotation rather than considering Gibson himself untouchable or something special. As I said, put me on the spot and ask me if I do Deng, Johnson and Gibson for Melo, I'd say I would.

That is the right answer. For me, it's a no brainer.

[NovU]

but there's no doubt he's a solidified superstar figure in prime atm.

What? No doubt? Melo is all hype. He's a piss-poor defender and slightly above average scorer (cue you arguing "28 PPG is slightly above average? There is no doubt that he and Rose are as good than Wade and LeBron") who takes a ridiculous amount of shots. He's not team-killingly bad, but he's hardly a difference maker (see: every game Melo misses where the Nuggets play just as well). Melo would have the same reputation as 2007 T-Mac if not for Billups and Nene carrying Denver to the conference finals in 09.

Granted, you have one good point. NBA players aren't known for their intellect, and they could buy into the hype and join this hypothetical 40-50 win Rose-Melo-Boozer squad. ("Man, I used to play against him and it was tough stopping him from taking contested 2pt jumpers, missing threes and getting to the line almost, but not quite at will")` Getting Melo would put them in a great position for the Chris Mihm sweepstakes.

Even Tom Thibodeau can't make Rose - Korver - Melo - Boozer - K. Thomas (?) a top 20 defensive team. With Melo's playmaking inability, and Rose's relative mediocrity, its hard to see them as a fearsome offensive team either.

It's only an usual occasion superstars take tons of shots and it isn't exceptional with Melo. Yes, it's a big part of Melo's game, but that's where he flourishes the most and made his name. Besides, I was just replying to your comment of Noah being a better player than Melo. Please tell me more how he is better, and how Melo is overhyped. Tell me better SFs that are available in today's league if you aren't exaggerating because I can give you 10 more better bigs than Noah that comes to mind easily.

[Lamrock]

There are more PF's AND C's in this league than there are SF's, but off the top of my head:
LeBron James (obvious)
Kevin Durant (obvious - more efficient, better defender, better shooter)
Corey Maggette (Basically Carmelo but with more points per possession)
Nicolas Batum (WP48: .181; Melo's: .145; a more effective player overall)
Paul Pierce (far more efficient scorer - Melo can only dream of .613% TS)
Andre Iguodala (better career TS%, actually defends, wastes less possessions)
Gerald Wallace (equally efficient offensive player, dominant defender)

Then there are all the efficient reserves, and the low usage players besides Batum that I would generally rather have on my team than the possession sink Melo.

Noah vs. Melo:
TS%: Noah: .557%; Anthony: .548% (career high)
WP48: Noah: 0.154; Anthony: 0.145 (career high)
ORtg: Noah: 112; Anthony: 110
DRth: Noah: 101 (you want this to be low); Anthony: 110

[shadowgrin]

Nicolas Batum

You really had to insert him in the list didn't you?

[NovU]

There are more PF's AND C's in this league than there are SF's

Even if so, by what margin?

, but off the top of my head:
LeBron James (obvious)
Kevin Durant (obvious - more efficient, better defender, better shooter)
Corey Maggette (Basically Carmelo but with more points per possession)
Nicolas Batum (WP48: .181; Melo's: .145; a more effective player overall)
Paul Pierce (far more efficient scorer - Melo can only dream of .613% TS)
Andre Iguodala (better career TS%, actually defends, wastes less possessions)
Gerald Wallace (equally efficient offensive player, dominant defender)

Then there are all the efficient reserves, and the low usage players besides Batum that I would generally rather have on my team than the possession sink Melo.

Noah vs. Melo:
TS%: Noah: .557%; Anthony: .548% (career high)
WP48: Noah: 0.154; Anthony: 0.145 (career high)
ORtg: Noah: 112; Anthony: 110
DRth: Noah: 101 (you want this to be low); Anthony: 110

Outside of Durant and Bron, do you really believe those craps? Ok, Pierce may have a good case, but his value considering his age and all, Melo is an obvious choice over him.

As for the stats especially on those related to efficiency, it's pretty obvious players like Noah can be easily viewed as better players as their roles on the court isn't quite as large as superstars. The thing is the teams try to surround those efficient role players around the superstars and let them do whatever they want to do while the role players like Noah focus on what they do the best.

[Lamrock]

But how can you call a guy who's barely a top 10 player at his position a superstar? Kaman averaged nearly 20 and 10 this season. Would you consider him a star C?

[NovU]

I wasn't arguing his worthiness for being a superstar as I also think he needs to improve many other aspects in his game, but we obviously can agree on a reason of him becoming a superstar mainly from his scoring ability and toughness plus the size. The Nuggets almost succeeded with their plan when they came close to taking out the Lakers and Melo was obviously the centerpiece of their plan. There's no way that will ever happen with Noah unless as a supporting cast which I think is quite expandable compared to Melo's game. Noah vs Melo discussion I find this quite pointless anyways, but the Bulls obviously lack in size without Noah and that's understandable. But it'd still be a great move if they still find a way to land Anthony and build around the new core as it will make Chicago one of the most prefered place to play for the players.

[Lamrock]

Melo was the centerpiece, but Billups and Nene were that team's best players. Melo's a "superstar" in the same was Iverson was. Carried his teams to mediocrity by using like every possession with average efficiency.

If they manage to pull off a Deng/Gibson for Melo trade, then its fantastic for them as they get rid of Deng's albatross if nothing else. However, I see them being a little too similar to the AI-Melo Nuggets that won one playoff game. (Rose=late career AI, Noah=Camby, Melo=Melo, Boozer=Nene, etc.) They would have a tough time advancing past the first round with an improved Eastern Conference. and if the their not-so-big 3 fails to accomplish anything, the vets will still flock to LA, Miami, etc.

[Rip32]

They would have a tough time advancing past the first round with an improved Eastern Conference. and if the their not-so-big 3 fails to accomplish anything, the vets will still flock to LA, Miami, etc.

You don't think that team could easily out-duel a five or six seed like Milwaukee or Atlanta? I think the Bulls current roster could take out either of those teams, and with Melo on board they wouldn't have any trouble scoring. I understand your reasoning about him being a black hole, but he would improve the team, ball hog or not.

Apparently talk now is involving Noah in the trade... which is just plain stupid. If they trade Deng-Noah-1st for Carmelo and a 1st it would be epically awful for Chicago.

[Lamrock]

The Bucks are going to be a top 4 seed, since they'll win their division. If Bogut is healthy, they are really good team. People underestimate how much they've improved. Chicago would probably beat the isobirds though.

[Andrew]

Apparently talk now is involving Noah in the trade... which is just plain stupid. If they trade Deng-Noah-1st for Carmelo and a 1st it would be epically awful for Chicago.

I really hope they don't go through with that. I don't fault Denver for holding out for a deal like that instead of Deng, Gibson and Johnson but the latter is that the Bulls should be pushing for with Noah strictly off the table (and if they can't get it, then forget about Melo until Denver is in full panic mode and desperate to get something for him). It would be going back to an old Paxson trend though, following up some solid moves with a frustrating one that takes another step backwards.

[The X]

No point having both Deng & Melo on the team together. Even if Bulls had to throw in a future 1st with Deng, Johnson & Gibson, then I still think it's worth it.

[Andrew]

I'd be fine with that, if you're trading for Melo then absolutely use that as an opportunity to shed Deng's contract and if it takes a future first round pick to do that, that's a gamble I think they should take. I'm just not keen on them including Noah in any deal that isn't bringing in a suitable replacement for him.

[The X]

I'd agree with that. I like the energy & presence that Noah adds to the Bulls' team. I'm guessing the only way you could give up Noah in any Melo deal is if you are also getting Nene back (say Noah, Deng, Johnson, cap filler & future 1st Round pick for Melo & Nene), which just isn't going to happen so it's a moot point.

[shadowgrin]

It's now being rumored to be a three or four team deal with Noah involved. Only hitch now is finding other teams to join the trade so the Bulls can get a decent big when they trade Noah.

[NovU]

It's now being rumored to be a three or four team deal with Noah involved. Only hitch now is finding other teams to join the trade so the Bulls can get a decent big when they trade Noah.

Good move by the Bulls I have to assume. I like the new look of the Bulls team, but Noah, Boozer and Rose core I think is still far from championship contending team. Besides losing Noah doesn't sound like a shake-up rather than needing of another size in the paint which is more like an adjustment they can make easily.

[Rip32]

People over-value Johnson a lot. He's not a blue-chip young guy at all, he's a guy who should still be playing at Wake Forest and some Bulls' fans are just talking about him in this deal like he's a clincher for it when he's def. not.

I think the Bucks and Bulls will have a good battle for the Central. I like Corey Maggette's addition, but with a slower paced team I really don't think he'll have anything close to the great season he had this past season. And if Drew Gooden plays like Cavaliers Gooden and not ball hog Gooden they will be a lot better.

[air gordon]

seriously. it's the bucks that are being overrated. They got rid of their best PG, brought in non Skiles players like Maggette & Gooden, Salmons will stink this year, and Bogut still can't fully extend his arm. he's going to miss the first few weeks of the season. Lamrock you want to step up the bet amount? lol

Andrew- are long term career backup PF's in low quantity?? are they difficult to acquire? are they expensive? what is their value relative to the rest of starters?

and who the heck is overrating James Johnson? it's agreed he stinks

Celts are going for broke this year. after this year, the ringchasers will be going elsewhere

i'd trade the package of Gibson-Deng for Anthony in a heartbeat just to get rid of Gibson's overratedness and Deng's contract. worry about how the rest fits later

i'm with the camp of not trading Noah for Anthony. Rose one of the best mid range shooting players in the game? can't be...

[Andrew]

Andrew- are long term career backup PF's in low quantity?? are they difficult to acquire? are they expensive? what is their value relative to the rest of starters?

I guess not, though I already said I ultimately would trade Deng and Gibson for Melo.

[J@3]

Well, its partly Noah's value by himself, considering he's a better player than Melo.

Wait... what?? He's only slightly less efficient than Noah, yet averaged 18ppg more and is only assisted on like 40% of his shots, compared to Noah who lives off offensive rebounds. Noah's a great rebounder but his D is still suspect against certain players (old mate Bogut torched him all season) and he's a non-factor offensively if you can keep him off the offensive boards... hell, 10 per game is not a huge factor offensively full stop. Melo can hit the three and gets to the line 9 times per game, compared to 3 for Noah. There is no comparison offensively.

You can say Melo takes a lot more shots (and he does) but if Noah were to take the same amount of shots as him (an extra 12 per) at his current efficiency (assuming everything stays the same.. I mean realistically for this to happen he'd have to average like 17 rebounds per game) he'd still average less points than Melo does. Melo's also a better passer and turns the ball over A LOT less. Noah's a lot better defensively and better on the boards (as you'd hope he would be) but there's no way he's a better player. A more valuable player maybe.

[TheMC5]

only assisted on like 40% of his shots

This is hugely important and something advanced stats people often overlook when extolling the virtues of low-usage/high-efficiency players. This is why guys like Melo, AI, Kobe, etc., have value offensively.

[benji]

This is hugely important and something advanced stats people often overlook when extolling the virtues of low-usage/high-efficiency players. This is why guys like Melo, AI, Kobe, etc., have value offensively.

No, we don't.

And one of those players is not like the others, one of those players is not the same.

[jonthefon]

Somewhat OT: How much stock can one really put on ORtg and DRtg?

Does one's teammates have a particularly big effect on it, even in the case of a high-minute player?