NBA Playoffs 2008 2.Hornets vs 7.Mavs
by hova- on Fri May 02, 2008 4:05 am
benji wrote:hova- wrote:Erick Dampier is just an overpaid center. I would love to see him being traded. You give up nothing when you trade him except a huge contract.
Except for his awesome offensive production.
I would not call it "awesome". Okay, he is more than solid when it comes to cleaning the offensive board. But 2.4 (or even 2.9 his regular season average) offensive boards is a number many Center/Power Forwards in this league can put up. (Actually 15 centers in this league put up better figures this season) Brandon Bass for example had 4.0 off. boards against the Hornets. But more about Dampier: His FG% is really really nice, but hey this guy takes 3.8 shots per game. It would not even bother if he only hit 30% of his shots, would be good for 2.6 points (with his .64% he has 6.1 - freethrows added).
His defense is not all to stifling, his blocked shots numbers are average (ranks 15th among Cs in the league) and you definitely dont want him to be your help defender since he averages 3.1 fouls in only 24 minutes of game time.
You could argue "what if" he played more than only 24 minutes per game but actually I think he does not have enough stamina since he has never played more than 32 mpg (which would be rank 10 among centers this season) and even if he was capable of playing more minutes he would foul out almost every game.
Another fact is that he is already 33 years old after this season and that his contract is egregious. He will earn 13.075.000$ in 2010/2011. (by the age of 35). So it would be a good idea to get him shipped away as long as his salary is in single digits (in millions
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hova- - Two time Hall Of Famer
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by benji on Fri May 02, 2008 6:31 am
You said:
Dampier has the second best career offensive rebounding percentage of any active player. He's been second and third in the league the last two seasons for anyone who's played over 1500 minutes. He has combined this with 64% shooting. Since his possession usage is low, it allows the ball to go to guys like Dirk and Terry more. He's almost an ideal big man for the Mavs, especially when he was paired with Diop.
Replacing him with an "All-Star" like Eddy Curry on last years Mavs easily could've cost them 12-13 wins.
Hmm, looks more like 9th for all players who played 1500+ minutes.
I was not contending that Dampier is not overpaid or that the Mavs shouldn't trade him, I was contending that you would be giving up nothing but a contract. Instead, as is very clear, you'd be giving up some great offensive production.
You give up nothing when you trade him
Dampier has the second best career offensive rebounding percentage of any active player. He's been second and third in the league the last two seasons for anyone who's played over 1500 minutes. He has combined this with 64% shooting. Since his possession usage is low, it allows the ball to go to guys like Dirk and Terry more. He's almost an ideal big man for the Mavs, especially when he was paired with Diop.
Replacing him with an "All-Star" like Eddy Curry on last years Mavs easily could've cost them 12-13 wins.
his blocked shots numbers are average (ranks 15th among Cs in the league)
Hmm, looks more like 9th for all players who played 1500+ minutes.
So it would be a good idea to get him shipped away as long as his salary is in single digits
I was not contending that Dampier is not overpaid or that the Mavs shouldn't trade him, I was contending that you would be giving up nothing but a contract. Instead, as is very clear, you'd be giving up some great offensive production.
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by hova- on Fri May 02, 2008 7:35 am
benji wrote:You said:You give up nothing when you trade him
Dampier has the second best career offensive rebounding percentage of any active player.
Whats Off. Reb. Percentage? Dont know this statistic ...
He has combined this with 64% shooting.
Which is not really useful but aint bad either, just pointless. He had seasons with only .49% but it doesnt matter if you take only 3 shots per game.
He's almost an ideal big man for the Mavs, especially when he was paired with Diop.
Yeah, but paired with Diop you could use almost everybody out there for just a lower price. (like Brandon Bass)
Replacing him with an "All-Star" like Eddy Curry on last years Mavs easily could've cost them 12-13 wins.
Yes, that maybe right. Except that Eddy Curry is far away from being an All-Star.
Hmm, looks more like 9th for all players who played 1500+ minutes.
That is not right. With his 1.47 blocks per game he ranks anywhere near 20th also among players who played more than 1500 minutes. Where do you get this stat from ? I could easily tell you 10 players blocking more shots than Dampier and having over 1500 minutes without looking at the stat sheet.
And even on the BP48M he is ranking on a ridiculous 35th seed.
And his block per foul ratio, which shows good blocking skills, is also mediocre. So his defense and in this case especially his shot blocking is only average at best !
I was not contending that Dampier is not overpaid or that the Mavs shouldn't trade him, I was contending that you would be giving up nothing but a contract. Instead, as is very clear, you'd be giving up some great offensive production.
I know that you were not contending that he is not overpaid since that would just be ignorant.
But that is still foolish. You have to look for what price you get this "great" offensive production. Great is just the wrong word because it is nowhere in ratio to his salary. That is my point.
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by benji on Fri May 02, 2008 7:55 am
Offensive rebound percentage is the only way to measure someones offensive rebounding capability. It is simply what % of possible rebounds on the offensive end does the player grab? Last two years Dampier has been around 14%, better than anyone but Jeff Foster.
But it's not! It means Dampier isn't taking horrible shots. His low number of shots leaves more for Dirk, Terry, etc. And when he does take a shot, he makes it. So Dampier is not wasting possessions, and once his offensive rebounding is thrown in, he's awesome when he's on the floor.
Again, block percentage. Why would I care how many minutes per game a player plays? I want to know how many shots he's blocking when he's on the floor.
My question is, who are you going to replace Dampier with? What other guy combines 60+% shooting with dominant offensive rebounding and 4% shot blocking, who doesn't use up possesions other players could use? I mean, other than the player you already traded in DeSagana Diop. Dampier is integral to the Mavericks' offense.
Since you mentioned him, Brandon Bass, who I really like, replacing Erick Dampier. He uses a ton more possessions and gets a lot fewer offensive rebounds...so assuming the five man team could play all 48 minutes as a way to illustrate how useful they are while on the floor:
Dampier - 11.7ppg, 5.7 possessions used
Nowitzki - 30.6ppg, 27.3 poss
Howard - 25.6ppg, 23.9 poss
Terry - 23.0ppg, 21.1 poss
Kidd - 13.3ppg, 14.5 poss
Off: 112.7
PPG: 104.2
Bass - 17.6ppg, 14.6 poss
Nowitzki - 27.5ppg, 24.5 poss
Howard - 23.0ppg, 21.4 poss
Terry - 20.6ppg, 19.0 poss
Kidd - 11.9ppg, 13.0 poss
Off: 108.9
PPG: 100.9
Which is not really useful but aint bad either, just pointless. He had seasons with only .49% but it doesnt matter if you take only 3 shots per game.
But it's not! It means Dampier isn't taking horrible shots. His low number of shots leaves more for Dirk, Terry, etc. And when he does take a shot, he makes it. So Dampier is not wasting possessions, and once his offensive rebounding is thrown in, he's awesome when he's on the floor.
That is not right. With his 1.47 blocks per game he ranks anywhere near 20th also among players who played more than 1500 minutes. Where do you get this stat from ?
Again, block percentage. Why would I care how many minutes per game a player plays? I want to know how many shots he's blocking when he's on the floor.
My question is, who are you going to replace Dampier with? What other guy combines 60+% shooting with dominant offensive rebounding and 4% shot blocking, who doesn't use up possesions other players could use? I mean, other than the player you already traded in DeSagana Diop. Dampier is integral to the Mavericks' offense.
Since you mentioned him, Brandon Bass, who I really like, replacing Erick Dampier. He uses a ton more possessions and gets a lot fewer offensive rebounds...so assuming the five man team could play all 48 minutes as a way to illustrate how useful they are while on the floor:
Dampier - 11.7ppg, 5.7 possessions used
Nowitzki - 30.6ppg, 27.3 poss
Howard - 25.6ppg, 23.9 poss
Terry - 23.0ppg, 21.1 poss
Kidd - 13.3ppg, 14.5 poss
Off: 112.7
PPG: 104.2
Bass - 17.6ppg, 14.6 poss
Nowitzki - 27.5ppg, 24.5 poss
Howard - 23.0ppg, 21.4 poss
Terry - 20.6ppg, 19.0 poss
Kidd - 11.9ppg, 13.0 poss
Off: 108.9
PPG: 100.9
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benji - Posts: 14545
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by hova- on Fri May 02, 2008 3:22 pm
But actually no using possesions for me is something you cannot say is good.
You can say that Dampier "know what he has to do". But still you have to say that his possesions are that low for a reason. He is not capable of scoring on a regular basis.
His offensive rebounding numbers are good, no question.
But the fact that he does not really have the ball in his hands very often is not that positive.
As for other players, I think that a player with more possesions like Bass, who is also a bit of a threat in the post, opens up more space for others.
Maybe you wont find a guy out there pressuring the boards better than Dampier (although I think there are some guys definitely), but still his offensive production is not great since he is pretty much a non factor with the ball in his hands.
Bass is an other type of player. He shows confidence in his shot and aggressivenes. Thats something you cannot measure, even with stats. Dampier does not bring the team any positive energy if you ask me. He is more like "Im doing my job, thats all".
And still I want to repeat, my biggest point was that Dampiers give and take ratio is just horrible. This guy earns 32M$ in the next three years !!
You can say that Dampier "know what he has to do". But still you have to say that his possesions are that low for a reason. He is not capable of scoring on a regular basis.
His offensive rebounding numbers are good, no question.
But the fact that he does not really have the ball in his hands very often is not that positive.
As for other players, I think that a player with more possesions like Bass, who is also a bit of a threat in the post, opens up more space for others.
Maybe you wont find a guy out there pressuring the boards better than Dampier (although I think there are some guys definitely), but still his offensive production is not great since he is pretty much a non factor with the ball in his hands.
Bass is an other type of player. He shows confidence in his shot and aggressivenes. Thats something you cannot measure, even with stats. Dampier does not bring the team any positive energy if you ask me. He is more like "Im doing my job, thats all".
And still I want to repeat, my biggest point was that Dampiers give and take ratio is just horrible. This guy earns 32M$ in the next three years !!
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hova- - Two time Hall Of Famer
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by benji on Fri May 02, 2008 4:08 pm
I'm sorry, but there are not unlimited possessions in basketball. Any possession one player uses is one the other four guys on the court cannot.
You may want to fill up your team with people who use high rates of possessions, but that is not maximizing the output of your team. We need to consider players in the context of a team, or at minimum a five man lineup.
Look at what I posted above again. Bass cuts almost four points off their offense. Why? Because he takes three possessions from Dirk, two and a half from Howard, two from Terry, and the possessions he's using aren't as efficient as Dampier's.
Brandon Bass can be the most confident, aggressive, hardworking, kitten-saving, leader in the world, and Erick Dampier can be the laziest fuck in the history of the sport. That does not matter if Dampier still does more things that win basketball games.
Making up "intangibles" is the silliest way to defend a player.
Eh? 31% of his shots are in the paint (19% are non dunk/tips), shoots 53% (34% on non-dunks), 49% are assisted, with 23% blocked (31% on non-dunks). Dampier's at 91% (55%), 67% (54%), 66% and 9% (15%).
You may want to fill up your team with people who use high rates of possessions, but that is not maximizing the output of your team. We need to consider players in the context of a team, or at minimum a five man lineup.
Look at what I posted above again. Bass cuts almost four points off their offense. Why? Because he takes three possessions from Dirk, two and a half from Howard, two from Terry, and the possessions he's using aren't as efficient as Dampier's.
Brandon Bass can be the most confident, aggressive, hardworking, kitten-saving, leader in the world, and Erick Dampier can be the laziest fuck in the history of the sport. That does not matter if Dampier still does more things that win basketball games.
Making up "intangibles" is the silliest way to defend a player.
I think that a player with more possesions like Bass, who is also a bit of a threat in the post
Eh? 31% of his shots are in the paint (19% are non dunk/tips), shoots 53% (34% on non-dunks), 49% are assisted, with 23% blocked (31% on non-dunks). Dampier's at 91% (55%), 67% (54%), 66% and 9% (15%).
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by hova- on Sat May 03, 2008 5:20 pm
Okay Benji, I see your points. I aint ignorant you know. I love to discuss and maybe get things I said corrected. And you really have your arguments.
Actually your numbers seem to convincing. Dampier is quite effective down low and and by using less possesion the stars of the Mavs can unfold their best play.
His offensive rebounding is excellent, I said that before. So actually you give up a quite well rounded center with his ups in rebounding and effectiveness
What I do not like is that you kind of ignore my points that you cannot disprove.
So still you have to say that Dampiers blocking is not the best. He gets many fouls called in only average minutes.
Also you still did not agree with what I was saying about Bass. Okay, your figures are interesting and convincing. Dampier effectively gives the Mavs a four point boost per game. But as you said he is a lazy ass. The aggressiveness is something you cannot measure concerning that you get your players pumped up.
And the dedication Brandon Bass brings to the table can definitely bring a boost and galvanize the other four players on the floor.
And still you have to take a look at the relation of Dampier's performance and the price youre paying.
And moreover you should consider the potential Mr. Dampier has left in his tank. He is old, you know.
So I think it would still be a good idea to trade him away although they may give up a pretty decent overpaid center.
Nice to discuss with you
me wrote:You give up nothing when you trade him
Actually your numbers seem to convincing. Dampier is quite effective down low and and by using less possesion the stars of the Mavs can unfold their best play.
His offensive rebounding is excellent, I said that before. So actually you give up a quite well rounded center with his ups in rebounding and effectiveness
What I do not like is that you kind of ignore my points that you cannot disprove.
So still you have to say that Dampiers blocking is not the best. He gets many fouls called in only average minutes.
Also you still did not agree with what I was saying about Bass. Okay, your figures are interesting and convincing. Dampier effectively gives the Mavs a four point boost per game. But as you said he is a lazy ass. The aggressiveness is something you cannot measure concerning that you get your players pumped up.
And the dedication Brandon Bass brings to the table can definitely bring a boost and galvanize the other four players on the floor.
And still you have to take a look at the relation of Dampier's performance and the price youre paying.
And moreover you should consider the potential Mr. Dampier has left in his tank. He is old, you know.
So I think it would still be a good idea to trade him away although they may give up a pretty decent overpaid center.
Nice to discuss with you
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hova- - Two time Hall Of Famer
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by benji on Sat May 03, 2008 5:49 pm
hova- wrote:What I do not like is that you kind of ignore my points that you cannot disprove.
Because you cannot prove them.
But as you said he is a lazy ass. The aggressiveness is something you cannot measure concerning that you get your players pumped up.
And the dedication Brandon Bass brings to the table can definitely bring a boost and galvanize the other four players on the floor.
All of this is completely meaningless and cannot be proven one way or another, let alone shown to have an impact on winning.
Dampier's fouling does erase his defensive contributions, but Bass is even worse on defense so I think it is a moot point, especially since Bass is 6-8/240.
So I think it would still be a good idea to trade him away although they may give up a pretty decent overpaid center.
Depends on what they replace him with. That is what matters. Replacing him with Bass and nothing else is a downgrade. If they had never made the Harris/Diop for Kidd trade, I would have no problem with moving Dampier in the short term.
Nice to discuss with you
And you.
Last edited by benji on Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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benji - Posts: 14545
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by deihatein on Sat May 03, 2008 5:55 pm
Every time i see benji post there are always a discussion (and benji is good when it comes to this)
shadowgrin wrote:Quick question: who is better in basketball, a black dude or a pinoy dude. If you thought or considered for a moment that it's the black dude then you're also a little bit racist.
End of any racist discussion.
Pinoy > Dallas Mavericks
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deihatein - Like he never left!
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by deihatein on Sat May 03, 2008 6:12 pm
Every time i see Lamrock post he is correct about me.
Maybe because there are still no Spurs/Hornets thread?
Maybe because there are still no Spurs/Hornets thread?
shadowgrin wrote:Quick question: who is better in basketball, a black dude or a pinoy dude. If you thought or considered for a moment that it's the black dude then you're also a little bit racist.
End of any racist discussion.
Pinoy > Dallas Mavericks
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deihatein - Like he never left!
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by hova- on Sat May 03, 2008 8:37 pm
benji wrote:Dampier's fouling does erase his defensive contributions, but Bass is even worse on defense so I think it is a moot point, especially since Bass is 6-8/240.
Yeah, that may be right. But I never said that Brandon Bass could replace Erick Dampier. The only thing I said, that in combination with DeSagana Diop you could bring in Bass. I never said in the current Mavs situation Brandon Bass could be a proper replacement for Dampier. Actually I dont think he can, cuz as you mentioned his best position is at PF with 6-8. (which would move Dirk to C which I personally dislike)
I just like his dedicated style of playing and I hope that he can improve to give the Mavs some solid contribution off the bench.
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