Miami Heat Thread

[koberulz]

What number didn't exist again?

What?

What do you meant what? What numbers didn't exist? You claimed it. Don't play ur usual quit card.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Could you quote what you're referring to?

[quoteNo need? Just for you, maybe. Bron's numbers are better even in the playoffs. I was making a point that he's a greater playoffs performer than general perception despite sole criticism from this year's finals. Till the Finals he was unstoppable like at a level Kobe never reached before. Imagine if his teammates bailed him out in couple games like the rest of Lakers did for Kobe.[/quote]
This. Is not. About Kobe. Kobe's numbers, teammates, records, wins, losses, titles, clutch performance, and whatever else are completely irrelevant. It's basically just the "tu quoque fallacy, except instead of me you're using a completely unrelated third party, which is even worse.

That Kobe hasn't performed at the same level LeBron did in the pre-Finals playoffs this year does not affect in any way the way LeBron played in the Finals. It's completely irrelevant. You can keep bringing up Kobe all you like, but that doesn't change anything about LeBron at all. You're just beating up strawmen.

[NovU]

Irrelevant? Kobe's teammates bailed him out in so many playoffs games where he performed much poorer comparable to James. Again... Imagine Lebron getting as much supports in the playoffs. How many wins would it translate to? Possibly we'd be talking rings.

Hardly surprising, since those numbers clearly don't exist.

...

[koberulz]

Irrelevant?

Yes, irrelevant.

Kobe's teammates bailed him out in so many playoffs games where he performed much poorer comparable to James. Again... Imagine Lebron getting as much supports in the playoffs. How many wins would it translate to? Possibly we'd be talking rings.

So? If I were talking about how many games LeBron has won, or how many rings he has, that would be relevant. If I were comparing him to Kobe, that would be relevant. I'm not. I'm pointing out that he has a tendency to disappear in the Finals. Other than LeBron James's performance in the Finals, nothing is relevant. You're trying to prove something about LeBron by pointing out things about Kobe. How do you expect that to work?

...

Yes. There are no stats that point out that Wade and Bosh are a shitty supporting cast, because Wade and Bosh aren't a shitty supporting cast. What's your point?

[NovU]

Irrelevant?

Yes, irrelevant.

Nope. My initial statement clearly includes 'supporting casts' and they're very relevant. 4th quarter talk exists partially because Lebron's teammates didn't get him enough wins in the playoffs whilst the Lakers as a team bailed out Kobe whole lot more.

So? If I were talking about how many games LeBron has won, or how many rings he has, that would be relevant.

You are the one that replied to my post claiming it ain't relevant. And open your eyes. Kobe known as clutch while Lebron a 4th quarter choker. The stats says otherwise. Wait. Specifically 4th quarter in the Finals? Is that it, just 2 games? Then I was merely expanding on the topic. Not totally irrelevant as I've seen Kobe choking worse than that in the playoffs, and we're talking about one of the best clutch player. Besides, teammates were more of a focus in my post. I don't need to be arguing over something stupid like this with you.

[shadowgrin]

Kobe's teammates bailed him out in so many playoffs games where he performed much poorer comparable to James. Again... Imagine Lebron getting as much supports in the playoffs.

At least Kobe did what he was supposed to do even when with a poor performance. What Kobe does best is to shoot and even though he almost/always shoots his team out of games (and his teammates always there to remedy it), Kobe does what he is capable of and what is expected of him.
LeBron didn't even do what he was capable of in the times he disappeared in the Finals. Instead he flopped like a pussy.

[Murat]

Hopefully Hakeem gives LeBron a post game like Howard's. If that's the case, LeBron will be completely unstoppable.

All that post game training is useless if he disappears in the 4th q of games again.

I'm hoping this every game of Elbeejee.

[Andrew]

I'm hoping this every game of Elbeejee.

LBG?

[Dan's Brain]

LeBron Gaymes, i'm guessing.

He's a contemporary of Derrick Blows.

[NovU]

*imSrryBuhWhoru?

LeBron didn't even do what he was capable of in the times he disappeared in the Finals.

Yeah. That's another side of argument, which everybody agrees on so I was merely mentioning lack of supports for Lebron in some sense as I was referring to teammates, untill koberox went berserk at me.

[deihatein]

So Wade and Bosh are lack of support for Lebron? And wasn't it Wade team to begin with?

[NovU]

No. Statistically outside the trio, there obviously was close to zero help if not none. We never had a clear fourth best player. In fact, other than trio the Heat constantly had to try different line ups all season long even during the playoffs. We never had a clear starting line up nor 6th 7th 8th man off the bench. The supporting casts of the trio pretty much was a joke. You could blame usage or the chemistry but what's evident is that nobody else was efficient nor productive anyways with the given playing time and role. Lebron, Wade and Bosh did enough on their part and by supporting cast I mean, should be rest of players other than the trio.

[_Steve_]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/420265-nba-free-agency-rumors-tracy-mcgrady-to-join-miami-thrice & http://www.freep.com/article/20110810/SPORTS03/108100378/Miami-Heat-interested-Tayshaun-Prince-Tracy-McGradySounds interesting.

[shadowgrin]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/420265-nba-free-agency-rumors-tracy-mcgrady-to-join-miami-thrice

July 14, 2010

[koberulz]

My initial statement clearly includes 'supporting casts' and they're very relevant.

Even if we assume supporting casts are relevant, that doesn't make Kobe's supporting cast relevant. This is about LeBron.

4th quarter talk exists partially because Lebron's teammates didn't get him enough wins in the playoffs

Bullshit. It exists because LeBron completely disappeared in the fourth quarters. There is no other reason whatsoever.

whilst the Lakers as a team bailed out Kobe whole lot more.

They got swept out of the second round. What the fuck are you talking about? Want to talk all-time, rather than this year? Fine.
2000 Finals, Game 4. Shaq fouls out in OT, Kobe takes over, Lakers win.
2004 Finals, Game 2. Kobe hits game-winning three.

Has LeBron ever done anything in the Finals that even remotely compares to either of those performances? No. So shut up about Kobe and his supporting cast.

So? If I were talking about how many games LeBron has won, or how many rings he has, that would be relevant.

You are the one that replied to my post claiming it ain't relevant.

Yes, yes I was. And it still isn't relevant. What's your point? I'm saying it's not relevant, you can't reply to that with 'but you said it wasn't relevant!' because that's exactly what I'm saying. "You agreed with yourself" is hardly a good argument.

And open your eyes. Kobe known as clutch while Lebron a 4th quarter choker.

I don't care what Kobe's known as, this is about LeBron. You want to dispute my claims about LeBron, back up your argument with things LeBron has done, not things Kobe hasn't done. Go read the tu quoque page I linked you to earlier. That's all you're doing here.

The stats says otherwise. Wait. Specifically 4th quarter in the Finals? Is that it, just 2 games?

Ten games. Four in 2007, six this year. And it's a tendency I noticed in 2007 long before the fourth quarter, made all the more infuriating by the fact that it was a couple of nights after that Detroit game.

Then I was merely expanding on the topic.

You don't get to do that. You can't justify LeBron's performance in the Finals by pointing at other stats, whether they be his or Kobe's, because that doesn't change what he did in the Finals.

Not totally irrelevant as I've seen Kobe choking worse than that in the playoffs,

Which is irrelevant, because Kobe isn't LeBron. How have you not worked that out yet?

Besides, teammates were more of a focus in my post.

But you've yet to provide any reason why teammates are the cause of LeBron completely disappearing in the Finals. Bad teammates are the reason he should get better stats, not worse stats (or at least higher field goal attempts with lower percentage, which wasn't happening either).

[NovU]

hahaha... dejavu. i ain't having any of this shit wit u. it's way too retarded

[_Steve_]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/420265-nba-free-agency-rumors-tracy-mcgrady-to-join-miami-thrice

July 14, 2010

Had the news about T-Mac and Prince also on my mobile today (think it was sports tab which is actually quite dependable).

[shadowgrin]

hahaha... dejavu. i ain't having any of this shit wit u. it's way too retarded

Don't play ur usual quit card.

[NovU]

Both T-Mac and Tayshaun had subpar seasons this year. But if they came at a minimum vet salary, sure Riley has to go for it. T-Mac looked surprisingly consistent time to time last season in a few games I watched. He actually looked comfortable at point guard position using his height well and distributing the ball quite impressively. Either would become an instant asset I believe, if ever happens that is...

hahaha... dejavu. i ain't having any of this shit wit u. it's way too retarded

Don't play ur usual quit card.

Sorry but I just had to. Everything's irrelevant to him. It's what this thread is all about. Bron's 2 games. Let him do it, I just don't want any part of it.

[shadowgrin]

Everything's irrelevant to him.

But you've yet to provide any reason why teammates are the cause of LeBron completely disappearing in the Finals.

[NovU]

It's gotta be obvious to see it from my previous posts. Nobody else was able to step up while Bron decided to take a backseat. Sure I ain't saying Bron did well but there were times where his teammates could have saved the moment and possibly games. That rarely happend for Bron(actually almost never) whereas Kobe consistently had supports in that regard. Hence, is Lebron really the choker? If that is the case, I'd claim Kobe also is. He failed to come out in more games(and sometimes in more important ones) than Lebron did. The difference is that supporting cast actually saving the day for one while not so much for the other.

[Murat]

http://www.freep.com/article/20110810/S ... cy-McGrady

if that would happen t-mac would reach 2nd round of playoffs

[shadowgrin]

Apologies to the higher-ups if I'm moderating the arguments between these two lol. Italics mine.

Nobody else was able to step up while Bron decided to take a backseat (lmao. He must really be bored to take a backseat in the NBA FINALS considering that they have no dependable players outside the Heat main three). Sure I ain't saying Bron did well but there were times where his teammates could have saved the moment and possibly games. That rarely happend for Bron(actually almost never) whereas Kobe consistently had supports in that regard. Hence, is Lebron really the choker? If that is the case, I'd claim Kobe also is. He failed to come out in more games(and sometimes in more important ones) than Lebron did.

whilst the Lakers as a team bailed out Kobe whole lot more.

They got swept out of the second round. What the fuck are you talking about? Want to talk all-time, rather than this year? Fine.
2000 Finals, Game 4. Shaq fouls out in OT, Kobe takes over, Lakers win.
2004 Finals, Game 2. Kobe hits game-winning three.

Has LeBron ever done anything in the Finals that even remotely compares to either of those performances? No. So shut up about Kobe and his supporting cast.

I was just talking stats.

What?

[NovU]

Why. You don't have to. grin

Lebron only went to the Final twice so it's only a small sample size to judge. But my initial argument still stands that his teammates could have saved a game or two which could have led to a different node in Bron's legacy despite the struggle. Wasn't arguing against that kobe having his moments in the Finals. But overall playoffs stats support that Bron was actually better. And we usually use playoffs performance to label players choker or clutch. My opinion was was referring to that, nothing more. If koberulz had come up with kobe's Finals stats and Bron's Finals stats as his argument, it'd have made more sense imo, rather than just claiming Bron's 2 games were all the things in the world that we need to discuss here.

As for the stats, I was referring to my original post, playoffs stats Bron vs Kobe.

[koberulz]

Which two games are you talking about? Even this year was a six-game series, and he had four in 2007 as well.

Even if LeBron's teammates had stepped up and won games, LeBron still faded away late. That remains true regardless of the result, and that is what LeBron is being criticised for.

[shadowgrin]

Why. You don't have to. grin

Quite the contrary. As you seem to contradict your own arguments as you will find out...

But overall playoffs stats support that Bron was actually better.

As for the stats, I was referring to my original post, playoffs stats Bron vs Kobe.

A worse supporting cast should lead to better individual numbers.

we (I don't, you filthy creature) usually use playoffs performance to label players choker or clutch.

It seems it's true his (LeBron) playoffs performance weren't as good as his regular season performance

I love how this goes back full circle to NovU's original post.