sticky-fingers wrote:Murat wrote:what made Jordan the pinnacle is the nostalgia and moments (Slam Dunk Contest, "The Shot", The Flu Game, Father's Day Victory etc.) IMO. the Internet wasn't highly used back in 90's so less discussion and less perceiving existed.
Lebron James Career (1143 games)
3 Rings
4 NBA MVPs
3 Finals MVPs
1 scoring title
Michael Jordan’s first 667 games, (Pre-Retirement)
3 Rings (6 career)
3 NBA MVPs (5 career)
3 Finals MVPs (6 career)
7 scoring titles (10 career)
3 steals titles
DPOTY
Enjoy
That's why I said that post doesn't tell even close to the whole story or reasoning. Bringing up the dunk contest, and a LeBron missed dunk, and the Mavericks team that the Heat were actually favored against, etc.
Again, outside of accolades and stats, it's the way the man played the game. The ultimate competitor, the coordination, the two way play, etc. Playing in the handcheck era of more physical basketball, while LeBron has played in a less physical, no handcheck era where the offensive player plowing through the lane can't be touched. LeBron is also not more Athletic than Jordan, looking bigger and jumping high doesn't make him a better athlete. Jordan overall is not only a higher jumper, but more coordinated, a lot more ability to do more in the air in regards to evading defenders, switching up shots in the air, embracing contact and adjusting his shot as well. Defensively, Jordan amassed over 250 steals and over 130 blocks as far as single season bests, while LeBron has never broke 180 steals or 100 blocks for his single season bests. Jordan may LOOK less intimidating, but athletically, and skill wise he was absolutely more intimidating.
So many reasons why myself and others don't think it's even close. Pippen argument is so ridiculous, he grew with Jordan in Chicago, he learned from Jordan, he started his career WITH Chicago. Look at his early year production, he wasn't amazing coming into the league. Jordan never recruited for the Bulls, he went and won his first 3 titles with an aged Cartwright, Horace Grant and John Paxson/BJ Armstrong, a young Pippen, and a very forgetful second unit... a very poor second unit.
Those accolades are just in about half the games played. Not only that, Jordan's dominance in the playoffs (clearly) also exceeds James by a large margin, that's not even close (unless you consider about half of the success rate close, but I don't even consider it half).
Using the nostalgia argument is a complete cop out. Someone can give all the legitimate reasons in the world why they think a past player is better than a current player (which I have given many of mine), and the person with the opposing view will STILL say "nostalgia", or stuck in the past. Think about how ridiculous that is? A person who has watched both players through there careers, who has an opinion with points to back it, will be told they have "nostalgia" and that's the reasoning.
Give me break, people can evaluate players and form opinions without that and without being biased. Using that on everybody is a cop out, and downright silly.
And the whole attitude of people who think Jordan is the best of all time getting all uptight and mad about comparisons, or coming to his defense, etc is ridiculous. First off, the LeBron possibly being the GOAT was started and pushed full force by the Media, it's been bludgeoned into people's heads over the last few months, the amount of content put out to start the debates is insane. People who are on the side of LeBron first off, hardly ever have good arguments to defend the stance (it's like one quick soundbite, while ignoring anything else that comes at them), or when someone makes a very valid point about Jordan, they will say "Say that without crying", or "nostalgia", or "stuck in the past, man" or simply " he's the goat, period, appreciate greatness". That's like over 90% of the comments I see where people say LeBron is the goat, and someone says the reasons they think Jordan is. The amount of people that make excuses for LeBron is insane, I've never seen a man get so many excuses made for him. Saying nostalgia for the people who say Jordan is the greatest, while not acknowledging that the vast majority of the people who claim LeBron is the goat NEVER saw Jordan play, or didn't even see Kobes whole career, makes no sense. So the person who saw both play is penalized for "living in the past" while the person who didn't see the other player even lace them up is not talked about.
And for the whole "Just because you think Jordan is the best of all time, doesn't mean that you should not appreciate LeBron's greatness". What? Who says I have to say LeBron is one of the greatest? What if I don't appreciate his competitiveness, his obvious epiphany for stat padding, his lack of two way play and his lack of desire to play two way basketball, or his "I" and "me" attitude that he displays not only on the court, or when he speaks to the media, or his plowing/uncoordinated style of basketball that gets him favored ten fold when going to the hoop, by using a full arm extension, or just bullying his way in when the defense isn't even allow to touch him, his knack for always looking for calls and not getting back on defense because he's in the backcourt complaining to the refs, or the fact that he consistently recruits stars to join him in order to compete, as opposed to just being a competitor, etc etc. I could keep going with my reasons. "Appreciate greatnees" according to who? It's not mandatory if someone has valid reasons why they don't consider them one of the best of all time.
The whole thing gives me a headache because it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.