Lakers Thread

[benji]

I dont really understand why a coach comes in and refuses to play the kind of game he has the players for. Does this make sense? Did the best coaches in history use their roster the right way or force it into their system? (this is not a retorical question. Maybe some of you have an answer for me)

And what's the "kind of game" the Lakers have players for?

Almost all coaches always force players into their system.

Well I aint no Lakers fan, so there is no reason to cry for me. Youre statin the obvious with Gasol since he has gotten a step slower and was never a good one on one defender. That does not mean he should play C so, but rather he should guard the weaker of the two opponent big men. (In this case Jordan, who might be athletic but does not have the footwork to go past Gasol).

And then you pull Dwight away from the basket when he has to chase Griffin.

[Andrew]

I dont really understand why a coach comes in and refuses to play the kind of game he has the players for. Does this make sense? Did the best coaches in history use their roster the right way or force it into their system? (this is not a retorical question. Maybe some of you have an answer for me)

As benji said, that's what most coaches do. You could say Phil Jackson "forced" the triangle onto his teams, but it was obviously successful. What matters is whether or not a system can be adapted to the players on the roster, or they can adapt to it. That's the problem with D'Antoni's offense: it has very specific demands of the roster, its effectiveness is greatly diminished when those demands aren't met and there's not much of a Plan B.

[Jackal]

Im not talking about dunks

The fact remains that Griffin was easily getting past gasol on the wing and beating him down the court on transition. This is just more evidence that gasol is better suited to play center at this stage of his career.

It's ok if you cry

You don't know what you're talking about, Dwight was beaten just as easily by Griffin. The Lakers just aren't good defensively, benching Gasol doesn't fix that. Jamison nor Hill can guard him either & Gasol at least has the tools to be effective on the offensive end.

"It's ok if you cry"

What are you? 5? Grow up.

[Bruce]

Here is an article about Jordan calling the triangle offense a "white man's offense". So sometimes it takes time for a team to properly adopt a system. But in the Lakers case, With the age of Bryant, Gasol, Nash and World Peace, then Howard's contract situation, they are not in a position to say, maybe we will win one in the next three years.

Right now, the best thing the Lakers can do, is slow down the game, and grind down on opposing teams both ways. For me this is D'Antoni's fault for not adopting with his personnel at hand. Gasol has been slow on defense whether it was D'Antoni's system, Mike Brown or even in Jackson's system. He is just not up to par with many NBA forwards in terms of mobility, simple as that. If a trade props up that will enable the Lakers to have a rotation that will let them throw 3 athletic PFs albeit with less offensive skill, playing shorter minutes but then play with more speed and energy, I think this will help the Lakers from making this season a complete waste.

[benji]

How exactly are the Lakers supposed to grind down teams on the offensive end? Kobe and Dwight aren't going to give up their shots to let Gasol take twenty-five shots a game in the post.

The real issue continues to be Gasol's mid-range shot disappearing. Two years ago at 3-9/10-15/10-23 he took 4.1/2.3/2.8 and shot 43/43/49. This season so far he's taking 2.0/0.8/4.3 at 26/22/39.

If he's not making those, then the pick and roll won't work. Jamison has seen a similar evaporation in his mid-range game. Through 25 games he hadn't made a single shot from 10-15 feet.

[Nash_Bryant]

Disappointment continues as Kobe vs. Howard comes up now. Ahh. Making the playoffs is still a long shot, but 49 games to do it.

[NovU]

Lakers' Kobe Bryant, Dwight Howard feuding in LA

A league source told the Daily News that the Lakers stars got into a heated exchange following a New Year’s Day loss to the 76ers, and Bryant went for a low blow – referencing and agreeing with Shaquille O’Neal’s criticisms of Howard being soft.

Howard was restrained from going at his teammate, according to the source, and there have been rumblings from the center’s camp that he’s been unhappy with Bryant since earlier in the season.

Three days after the altercation, following a disheartening loss to the Clippers, Howard complained about the lack of chemistry on the Lakers. It was a comment seemingly directed at Bryant, who is averaging a league-high 22 shots despite playing with three potential Hall of Famers.

The Mike D’Antoni-coached Lakers fell to 15-18 after losing at home to the Denver Nuggets, 112-105, Sunday night despite Howard’s 26 rebounds. Bryant led L.A. with 29 points but took 26 shots.

“Look at the difference between our team and (the Clippers),” Howard said. “They just play together. They share the ball. Everybody’s excited when something happens.”

“(Chemistry) is something we have to do to get better,” Howard told reporters in L.A. “We have to play like we like each other. Even if we don’t want to be friends off the court, whatever that may be, when we step in between the lines or we step in the locker room or the gym, we have to respect each other and what we bring to the table.”

......

Prior to the trade that sent Howard to Los Angeles, Bryant reportedly told Howard he’d be the third offensive option if traded to the Lakers. Following the New Year’s Day loss to the 76ers, Bryant was ticked off at Howard and ticked off in front of the media.

“Cause we’re old as s---,” the 34-year-old told reporters, explaining the Lakers’ struggles. “What do you want? We just got to figure out how to play when we don’t have that energy.”

This was somewhat forseeable. Howard never liked Kobe's attitude even before he became the Lakers. He's fed up, pretty much.

[Andrew]

Tough week coming up with the Rockets, Spurs and Thunder. Not exactly what they needed, though also an opportunity for some big wins to get themselves back on track.

[NovU]

Here's another article on Kobe vs Howard.

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/stor ... each-other

Kobe talks about his days w/ Shaq...

One of them has to sacrifice. I sacrificed quite a bit with individual numbers and MVPs and NBA Finals and all this other stuff

lol

[hova-]

I dont really understand why a coach comes in and refuses to play the kind of game he has the players for. Does this make sense? Did the best coaches in history use their roster the right way or force it into their system? (this is not a retorical question. Maybe some of you have an answer for me)

And what's the "kind of game" the Lakers have players for?

Almost all coaches always force players into their system.

Well I aint no Lakers fan, so there is no reason to cry for me. Youre statin the obvious with Gasol since he has gotten a step slower and was never a good one on one defender. That does not mean he should play C so, but rather he should guard the weaker of the two opponent big men. (In this case Jordan, who might be athletic but does not have the footwork to go past Gasol).

And then you pull Dwight away from the basket when he has to chase Griffin.

For your first point. I don't know really what kind of game they should play. But more pick&roll with Howard and Nash would maybe be a good idea. As far as I know Howard has very good percentages when playing the p&r and Steve Nash is a p&r maestro. Problem would be: Kobe is not as much involved on offense as he would like to.
Although this could be a fanboy's opinion I think Rick Carisle is a coach who has the ability to find way to use the strenghts of his players without simply putting them into a scheme. Same goes for Gregg Popovich, who knows how to involve role players on offense and hide bad defenders. Actually it's just like Bill Simmons says: there are only a handful great coaches in the NBA and the others simply rely on the talent of their roster.

About guarding Griffin: I think it has been exagerrated in this thread anyway. Gasol can guard Griffin, but BG will always find a chance to blow by you for the dunk. It's not like BG put up 30+ points or something.

[air gordon]

you don't know what you're talking about, Dwight was beaten just as easily by Griffin. The Lakers just aren't good defensively, benching Gasol doesn't fix that. Jamison nor Hill can guard him either & Gasol at least has the tools to be effective on the offensive end.

"It's ok if you cry"

What are you? 5? Grow up.

i didn't suggest Howard, who plays center, to guard opposing PF's. that's Gasol's job since he is the PF.

as i have mentioned several times in this thread (and several times you have not replied to it)- Gasol is better suited to play center at this stage of his career. and now benji graced us with some stats on the guy who "at least has the tools to be effective" (backing off your thesis of him being more dominant already??!!).

Lakers made their run with Gasol on the bench. Hill was having a good game until he got hurt. Pau wasn't going back into the game. Just so happened Howard fouled out...

About guarding Griffin: I think it has been exagerrated in this thread anyway. Gasol can guard Griffin, but BG will always find a chance to blow by you for the dunk. It's not like BG put up 30+ points or something.

did you see the game? He probably goes for 30+ points if he doesn't get in foul trouble. did you see Griffin take it to the basket easily on Gasol on several occasions in the first few minutes of the 1st qtr??

[benji]

For your first point. I don't know really what kind of game they should play. But more pick&roll with Howard and Nash would maybe be a good idea. As far as I know Howard has very good percentages when playing the p&r and Steve Nash is a p&r maestro. Problem would be: Kobe is not as much involved on offense as he would like to.

D'Antoni's entire offense is pick and roll based. The problem with Howard is that he can only roll to the basket. And that's if he can catch the pass. Gasol on the other hand can pop the mid-range jumper. At least theoretically. As seen above that hasn't been happening this year. Gasol also has the skills to make another pass, ideally including a lot to Howard under the hoop once the defense reacts poorly to the pick and roll.

And that problem, as seen in the story above, is the real reason none of this is working. There's a $28 million force that demands and sucks in at least a third of possessions under any circumstances. (And then uses most of those to fire up contested 15+ footers.)

Same goes for Gregg Popovich, who knows how to involve role players on offense and hide bad defenders.

Which he does by forcing them into his scheme.

[Jackal]

How anal do you have to be if you're going to nitpick about C guarding C and PF guarding PF. Different positions guard opposing teams' different positions; you just feel so strongly about labeling them C/PF instead of big1/big2 you're acting as if each "position" guards the opposing teams "position". Like how dare Lebron guard Rose?! He's a SF and should only guard Luol Deng.

And get your head out of your ass, I'm saying the guy should get more touches in the post, Ben is talking about a mid-range shot. Are you really that dense?

[Andrew]

Like how dare Lebron guard Rose?! He's a SF and should only guard Luol Deng.

Works for me.

[air gordon]

You are missing the point, friend. Being in denial is a very powerful thing...

Lebron guards Rose because he can. James is versatile enough to do that. Yeah I know Pf/C defensive assignments can be interchangeable. They do it in Chicago. Boozer will guard the opposition’s bigger guy and Noah takes the more mobile guy if you will.

But with the Lakers that is not the case. 3 time DPOY Dwight Howard has no business chasing PF’s on the perimeter. Gasol is forced to guard the other team’s quicker/perimeter shooting PF.

Again I will mention that “stretch” 4’s/5’s are the new trend. We all know that Gasol is not suited to guard these types of players.

And again as I said when Howard was acquired- it is not a good fit for Gasol on offense. His greatest advantage was being able to face up on big guys. Now you no longer have the slow, fat guy guarding Gasol. You have him being guarded by these uber athletic PF’s that are mostly quicker/some stronger than him. And there's no spacing because Howard is around the basket.

If you want to run post up’s for Gasol- where do you put Howard? Don’t embarrass yourself again and say “in the post”.

[benji]

Well, the good news is now neither one will screw up the team:

EL SEGUNDO, Calif. -- If the Los Angeles Lakers are going to crawl out of the hole they've dug for themselves with their current three-game losing streak, they'll have to do it without their All-Star big men -- center Dwight Howard and forward Pau Gasol -- who are both out indefinitely with injuries, the team announced Monday.

[Bruce]

Well, the good news is now neither one will screw up the team:

EL SEGUNDO, Calif. -- If the Los Angeles Lakers are going to crawl out of the hole they've dug for themselves with their current three-game losing streak, they'll have to do it without their All-Star big men -- center Dwight Howard and forward Pau Gasol -- who are both out indefinitely with injuries, the team announced Monday.

More good news, Hill is also out with a hip injury.

Darius Johnson-Odom was waived, perhaps the lakers are planning to pick up a player for a 10 day contract. Congratulations to Kobe, it's the 2005-06 season for him once again. Time to shoot like there's no tomorrow.

[shadowgrin]

[hova-]

Again I will mention that “stretch” 4’s/5’s are the new trend. We all know that Gasol is not suited to guard these types of players.

It's been at least five years since this trend came up in the basketball "expert's" minds and another five years when it has really come up. And saying Griffin is a stretch four is not right at all. You can leave him open outside if you want to because his shot is horrible. He might stretch the floor by going for the screen but he cannot shoot the jumper afterwards.

[graybakflip]

Really it's difficult to play with a team with 3 alpha dogs on their previous teams just last season. And about their PnR offense, IMHO I do really think it's better to run it with nash+gasol than nash+dwight(ask kobe). Dwight can't dribble or shoot at mid range nor shoot the FT's, unlike pau where he either can pick n pop or PnR. Clearly dwight has lost a bit on his athleticism and even before in orlando he has a very limited offense but his usage rate was high so he had 20+/10+ stats there. Here at kobe's team, he's used as a "Tyson Chandler" role(just as I said before and main reason he didn't want LA, you can add to that the expectations). Really they do made a mistake on choosing D' Antoni over PJax, Antoni needs fast, spot-up shooters, young players for his uptempo game which the LA do needs at this point. I guess they need to shake some things up.

[shadowgrin]

Really it's difficult to play with a team with 3 alpha dogs on their previous teams just last season.

Ok so two dogs and an alpha ostrich.

[benji]

LeBron looks so uncomfortable.

[shadowgrin]

Was probably worried that he might choke in the celebration.

[Qballer]

last time i heard about a torn labrum, jameer nelson missed half the season and barley made it back for the finals and still not 100%. is dwight done for the season?

[Andrew]

They're claiming he's back in a week, last I read.

[graybakflip]

Well I guess when you've planned it before and when you are close friends that'll eventually work. Not as ugly as this tho, well as I was expecting. Roles aren't defined well, and team chemistry is a big issue. Hard to say this but hope they can make it to the PO.

[Andrew]

They almost pulled off the impressive comeback against the Spurs and once again they did play some decent defense at times down the stretch, though not unlike the Clippers the other day, the Spurs did get a little complacent and sloppy towards the end which left the door open. A close loss isn't that much comfort when they desperately start needing to string together some wins, but it may prove to be a confidence boost all the same. Earl Clark certainly had a career game.

[NovU]

selfless Heat trio > 2 selfish chumps. So bad even great Canadien can't save their ass.

Are we ever gonna admit Kobe's ball huggery and Dwight's unwillingness(to play by it) are killing the chemistry.

[Jackal]

You are missing the point, friend. Being in denial is a very powerful thing...

I'm not your friend, guy.

Lebron guards Rose because he can. James is versatile enough to do that. Yeah I know Pf/C defensive assignments can be interchangeable. They do it in Chicago. Boozer will guard the opposition’s bigger guy and Noah takes the more mobile guy if you will.

But with the Lakers that is not the case. 3 time DPOY Dwight Howard has no business chasing PF’s on the perimeter. Gasol is forced to guard the other team’s quicker/perimeter shooting PF.

Again I will mention that “stretch” 4’s/5’s are the new trend. We all know that Gasol is not suited to guard these types of players.

And again as I said when Howard was acquired- it is not a good fit for Gasol on offense. His greatest advantage was being able to face up on big guys. Now you no longer have the slow, fat guy guarding Gasol. You have him being guarded by these uber athletic PF’s that are mostly quicker/some stronger than him. And there's no spacing because Howard is around the basket.

If you want to run post up’s for Gasol- where do you put Howard? Don’t embarrass yourself again and say “in the post”.

Chasing PF's on the perimeter? Griffin really isn't that much of a stretch four who plays on the perimeter. Wouldn't it make sense for Howard to guard the other teams quicker big since he is indeed quicker/more athletic?

Saying Gasol's "greatest advantage was being able to face up on big guys" is doing serious injustice to the back to the basket facet of his game.

You put Howard where you put Bynum before, on the weak side/high post. Play through Gasol, I don't understand how this baffles some people. You play through Howard he does his herky-jerky back down spin and gets either stripped or fouled to go shoot bricks. Put Gasol in that position, instead of having Howard move to the perimeter like D'Antoni is doing with Gasol, put him at the opposite side. Gasol is skilled enough to either make a post move on his own or find a cutting player (screen by Howard around the high post maybe), if Gasol's defender is being helped by Howards defender either have Howard go for the lob pass or pass to the player whose defender has switched to Howard.

I don't understand how you can find it more logical to give the ball to Howard who isn't as offensively skilled in the post, instead of at least TRYING to let Gasol run the offense from the post.

Is it the ideal offense? No. You would love a Kevin Love in this situation...but the fact D'Antoni doesn't even attempt something different goes to show he's not this offensive guru they make him out to be.

Are we ever gonna admit Kobe's ball huggery and Dwight's unwillingness(to play by it) are killing the chemistry.

Kobe has always been second fiddle to his bigs. The magic was in Jackson who made him believe he was either taking a back seat to let Shaq do his thing while he sacrificed MVP's (giggle) and that he was the focal point of the offense with Gasol/Odom/Bynum.

[shadowgrin]

Well I guess when you've planned it before and when you are close friends that'll eventually work.

Nope.

[graybakflip]

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. But still that doesn't help either about this team's slump(so bad that jack can't even watch the remaining 8 mins of the OKC game). Again, as what I've said before the season started, team chemistry and bench will be a problem. Nash(double2 last season right?) is now turning to be a derek fisher, dwight the "tyson chandler" role. It's either they adjust to kobe(doing but got to be better) or kobe adjust to them(can't imagine this, it's kobe's team). There's gotta be a change. If they want to make it to the PO, they should win 70+% of their remaining games, and thats either 7th/8th seed.

[Andrew]

Derek Fisher wishes he could be posting numbers like Steve Nash has been so far, which are down from last year in Phoenix but hardly terrible. On top of everything else, the team has been hit hard with injuries at the moment and they've just had a tough week facing the Rockets and Spurs on the road and the best team in the league in the Thunder. This week wasn't particularly kind to them and their continued losing streak, but the circumstances didn't allow for much better. They have a good opportunity to bounce back at home against the Cavaliers in a couple of days, though.

[Nash_Bryant]

Im not even sure if they can make the PO, especially in the conference they're in.

[NovU]

And being old and bad is ugly business.

[Andrew]

Im not even sure if they can make the PO, especially in the conference they're in.

It's starting to look like a distinct possibility. For what it's worth, in a quick poll I posted on our Facebook page, just as many people believe they'll bounce back and win the championship as those who believe they won't make the Playoffs at all. If they do miss the Playoffs though they won't even have the luxury of lottery pick, as Phoenix owns it from the sign-and-trade deal that brought in Steve Nash.

[Andrew]

Howard's back and the losing streak is over. Not exactly the best opponent as far as proving their mettle, but a win's a win and I'm sure they'll take it right about now.

[Bruce]

Howard's back and the losing streak is over. Not exactly the best opponent as far as proving their mettle, but a win's a win and I'm sure they'll take it right about now.

I wonder if Earl Clark will get to start more games? It looks like he needs to bulk up some more and add some post game. If he could do that he can really be effective at 4. In the mold of C-Webb or Rasheed Wallace.

It was a give away game, but sometimes it takes these types of game for a team to find their identity. Now that Hill is out for the season, the Lakers needs to adjust again. There are talks that the Lakers might be interested in signing K-Mart to fill in for Hill. But I think finding the right rotation for Gasol-Metta-Clark-Jamison would be far better than adding K-Mart and his baggage to the list of the Lakers problems. For me, the Lakers should address the 3 position first, With Clark and Metta getting time at PF, I think the Lakers should re-sign and add the versatility of Chris Douglas Roberts to fill in as reserve 3. And I think they can have him for cheap.

Loved:
great shooting percentage
metta not shooting too much
not floundering as much on rotations
containing irving and tristan thompson

Hated:
turnovers

In the next game, the Lakers should be doing more of the same with the Bucks, they should contain the scoring guards Jennings and Ellis then keep the athletic forwards sanders and mbah a-moute from making easy points and rebounds.

[uly]

4 Howard to get his A game,he should be surrounded by 3 point shooters.. that's why he is so effective in posting up at Orlando co'z every time there will be a double team he can just pass the ball for a possible 3 point,(anderson) and because of this other teams who cant defend Howard one on one are hesitant to double him... for this lakers squads, i think they should place gasol as reserve and let Jamison or other 3 point gunner to play with howard in order to widen the space of howard in the paint..

[Stress Fracture]

How's Jodie Meeks doing right now?

[air gordon]

You are missing the point, friend. Being in denial is a very powerful thing...

I'm not your friend, guy.

why?

it doesn't matter what kind of game Griffin has. Gasol can't guard him or other Pf's that shoot/attack from the perimeter. Howard is a 3 time Defensive Player. that is embarassing to suggest Howard guard perimeter bigmen/stay outside of the lane. Do you need explanation as to why Howard won the award?

Look at Gasol's playoff performance in the past 2 years. How about that meltdown vs the Thunder where Ibaka owned him?! There are no excuses to fall back on. No injury, D'antoni, or Howard to blame. He should be thriving in the playoffs since the game slows down. His numbers are down across the board- most glaringly his PER, and efG%.

Howard has been on a roll since Gasol's been sitting out.

[Bruce]

Wow, Lakers lost to the Raptors. I think the Lakers has just hit a new low. They are approaching the Knicks during Isiah Thomas' years as GM for the level of subpar play and bloated contracts. Sooner or later, they have to implode.

[benji]

They are approaching the Knicks during Isiah Thomas' years as GM for the level of subpar play and bloated contracts.

Everything comes off the books in another year and they still have a chance at the playoffs.

[dare]

So after losing to the Raptors they got defeated by the Bulls w/o Deng and Rose. I can't even describe how disappointing this team is.

[Qballer]

i had no idea who jimmy butler was until tonight. i was very impressed with his excellent on-ball defending skills

[Andrew]

Kobe Bryant's frustration with Lakers' struggles grows: 'This isn't working'

[IcemanOutlaw]

http://www.nba.com/2013/news/01/21/lake ... index.html

[graybakflip]

OMG

Kobe on Dwight: “I’ve tried to go out of my way to get him the ball, sometimes I end up looking like an idiot.” (Yahoo Sports)

from that link by Andrew..

It's hard playing "Tyson Chandler" role I guess.

[NovU]

Tyson Chandler did it with Dirk the chucker and Kidd the old man. Why can't Dwight? He's also got the Kobe the chucker and Nash the old man. Lol.

I've got a shot, but I try to find him. But he thinks I'm going to shoot, so his back is turned. I'm trying to think about getting him the ball a lot – take care of him as much as I possibly can.

That's the problem. He's not a facilitator. He can't find the guys where they feel the most comfortable. Don't try to be LeBrick or Chris Paul. Let Nash handle the offense and Kobe starts paying more attention on D. Nobody wants his 25 ppt on 28 attempts.

[Jackal]

Well we need to spread the floor, open up for Dwight which hasn't happened yet but we also need an identity and that's running, getting the ball up, getting Nash open, different things you know, so I think it'll work out.

That's from the Bulls - Lakers game.

The biggest thing about it when you do have talent is that you don't screw it up you know. You don't want to get too much control, try not to take too much of the blame or the claim for success and try to make it the best possible situation for the players that you have so that they can get themselves to this position (the Finals)

That's from game 06 back in 2000 Pacers vs Lakers.

All I'm saying is; if you as a coach don't know how to work with what you've got...you're a bad coach. Mike D'Antoni is an ass clown.

Regarding Howard wanting the ball more; dude, try not to get stripped on every other possession, then we'll talk.

[Qballer]

I've got a shot, but I try to find him. But he thinks I'm going to shoot, so his back is turned. I'm trying to think about getting him the ball a lot – take care of him as much as I possibly can.

kobe got stuck going up for a shot, then looking to pass with butler's hand in his face about 3 or 4 times last night.