Is 2k starting to feel a little dated to anyone else?

Talk about NBA 2K16 here.

Is 2k starting to feel a little dated to anyone else?

Postby Nick on Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:41 pm

Don't get me wrong, the game improves every year and i'm grateful for the work that the devs put in.

But the improvements are incremental and they've been using the same base foundation for like 10 years. The animations feel antiquated (particularly ball handling, passing, and running/movement); too familiar. The game feels old. It has plateaued.

I wish EA would lift their damn game. It'd be really interesting to have a game that feels completely different. I need a change. Someone! :giveup:
...Kanomi? Lol

I crave a game where you don't get "stuck in animations", but instead the animations react to movements on a more macro level, giving it a more lively feel. Like soccer games.

It's unlikely that 2k will revamp though. They've got a formula that works, and people buy the game. From here on out it seems like each new yearly release is just gonna be a roster update with some gameplay tweaks and some new gimmicky online modes. 2k needs some legit competition, to really inspire some innovative changes in the core gameplay
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Re: Is 2k starting to feel a little dated to anyone else?

Postby atlwarrior on Sat Jul 02, 2016 11:20 am

NBA 2k is becoming the Madden of basketball. It's been the same the past 3 years. Each year being a more polished version of the previous year. Now I experiment with different sliders to get a different feel in the gameplay. It helps a little.
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Re: Is 2k starting to feel a little dated to anyone else?

Postby PeacemanNOT on Sat Jul 02, 2016 11:24 am

Ironically, the only sports game that has fully changed its engine/gameplay and hasn't been recycled year after year is PES.

It's funny because everyone always makes fun of the game, when at least they actually have the balls to change the game for once.
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Re: Is 2k starting to feel a little dated to anyone else?

Postby TBM on Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:38 am

atlwarrior wrote:NBA 2k is becoming the Madden of basketball. It's been the same the past 3 years. Each year being a more polished version of the previous year. Now I experiment with different sliders to get a different feel in the gameplay. It helps a little.


Big difference IMO. Madden is complete garbage in comparison to a game that came out in 2005 before EA blocked the competition from making a superior game.
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Re: Is 2k starting to feel a little dated to anyone else?

Postby jrlocke on Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:07 am

With all the coach strategy additions 2k16 seems like a brand new game to me. I came from 2k14.

Controlling the whole 30 teams and adjusting how the CPU guards me as well as how I guard the CPU makes this game incredibly deep. My League is amazing.
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Re: Is 2k starting to feel a little dated to anyone else?

Postby mp3 on Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:08 pm

This is why I played Live 16 alot this year, 2k16 is a great game but I felt like I'd being playing it for about 3 straight years after the game had only just being released.
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Re: Is 2k starting to feel a little dated to anyone else?

Postby ThaLiveKing on Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:18 am

I think the graphics are out dated. They need to figure out how to improve the overall look of the game. That's just me. The game looks dull IMO
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Re: Is 2k starting to feel a little dated to anyone else?

Postby Phreak50 on Sun Jul 17, 2016 7:56 am

The graphics are lifeless.

On a technical level, it's all super impressive but the stadiums look dull and the lighting isn't close to being realistic, the player models look great but all the non-basketball animations like celebrations, players interacting with each other and especially the facial animations give the game a creepy, uncanny valley look.

Both those points above are on another level in Live 16. For all it's other flaws, Live is now the leader in visuals and atmosphere and 2K needs to get back to it's 'visual concepts' roots and lift their game.
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Re: Is 2k starting to feel a little dated to anyone else?

Postby Andrew on Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:16 am

While I'm certainly not against enhancements to the visuals, that wouldn't be the biggest complaint for me as far as the game's freshness. Even if we're talking about the animations rather than the lighting, atmosphere, or whatever, I still think that the quality is satisfactory at the very least. Again, any enhancements are welcome, but I don't feel that those are the biggest issues.

For me, the bigger problems as far as the game feeling dated are concerned would be legacy issues with the gameplay. We have the new Eco-Motion engine, and the responsiveness of the controls has improved over the past couple of games, but there's still some clunkiness from time to time: hitches when trying to sprint, a feeling of running in mud, and so on. There are also still balance issues with the game, where the CPU remains competitive somewhat artificially. Having played a lot of 2K Pro-Am lately, better balance also needs to be achieved in User vs. User games as well. A starting five of 90+ Overall players throws everything out of whack, and the nerfs they tried in the patches tended to end up hurting lower rated players more than they evened up the playing field, while still allowing for some cheesy play.

While I'm normally against massive overhauls to the controls every year, I'm also thinking it might be time to re-evaluate some of the approaches in 2K. I've always felt that NBA Live has had a more intuitive approach to its controls, even when the depth hasn't been there. 2K has the depth and that's fantastic, but there are times when the controls still feel a bit contrived, especially for advanced moves. The Shot Stick is still pretty hit and miss for me as far as being able to pull off the exact move I want, and the fact that it's combined with dribbling controls can make things cumbersome. I'm more a fan of right stick dribbling than right stick shooting, though I do get the benefits of the Shot Stick. I must admit that I don't have any specific ideas for how I'd change it, at least not off the top of my head, but I feel like something has to be ironed out there.

Same goes for some legacy issues with the grading logic in MyCAREER (and now Pro-Am). There are still some of the same glitches, to say nothing of the approach of focusing on severely punishing mistakes than rewarding consistently good play. I'm sure there has actually been work done under the hood there, but to be honest, when I do see some of the same old problems occurring, it feels like nothing has been done with it for at least two or three years now.

Like I said, visual enhancements are important in their own right, but even if you fix all that up and make the game look nicer, you're still going to run into issues with the gameplay and features. I would suggest that fixing some of these things are easier said than done, but it doesn't make it any less frustrating when certain issues have annoyed us for a few years running.
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Re: Is 2k starting to feel a little dated to anyone else?

Postby Phreak50 on Wed Jul 20, 2016 3:04 pm

Oh don't get me wrong, there are tonnes of gameplay improvements needed but they won't happen until this engine is scrapped and given that the series has no competition, it's going to be minor upgrade after minor upgrade for years to come.

The biggest issue is the control for sure. Too sluggish, too delayed and the whole thing feels like you barely have control at times. Too many predetermined animations and situations, your defenders speed cut in half when the CPU gets a fast break etc etc.

I chose visuals because that's the easiest thing for them to fix, seeing as though the lighting and stadium look has actually been downgraded since 14 on PS4.
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Re: Is 2k starting to feel a little dated to anyone else?

Postby Andrew on Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:17 pm

I'm not sure that scrapping the engine - which does seem to have some good things going for it - is going to be the solution that a lot of people expect it to be. After all, even with a new engine, they'll have to re-use some (likely revamped) assets, at least initially. Also, they're still going to have a similar approach, style, and development philosophy. A brand new engine won't fix anything, if some of the same design choices are made, and problems brought across as a result.
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Re: Is 2k starting to feel a little dated to anyone else?

Postby Phreak50 on Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:16 pm

Yeah wrong word I guess. I meant scrapping the code behind a lot of the faults in the game.

But as you say, if that's their design choices then they'll pop up in any iteration.
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Re: Is 2k starting to feel a little dated to anyone else?

Postby Andrew on Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:14 pm

I'd say that's why there's been some scepticism that both companies have actually had new engines on this generation, because of the similarities to the older games. The thing is, when you re-use and re-vamp assets, or continue to design things a certain way, there is going to be familiarity, and the potential for legacy issues.
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Re: Is 2k starting to feel a little dated to anyone else?

Postby dwayne12345 on Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:31 pm

Hey Nick,

No disrespect to your point of view, but the idea of them actually going ahead and listening to you frightens me. Hardcore Association/franchise/my whatever mode players like myself, I feel, would have an issue with ignored issues in those modes for focus on building a new engine.

Mind you building a new functional engine would take years to perfect, which means you're talking about having a great game again by about NBA 2k20. It's just not needed. The game is already year in one of the best sports games for its time ever. Keep the engine and focus year in on improving it.

Changing an engine now would be like trading Lebron James for a #1 draft pick. He might be better. He might end up having the exact same flaws as LeBron. He might end up being a complete bust. Why would you take that chance when you can just; keep Lebron, put the necessary pieces around him (because a game is more than just it's engine), and have a game that is rich with features.
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Re: Is 2k starting to feel a little dated to anyone else?

Postby Nick on Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:15 am

dwayne12345 wrote:Hey Nick,

No disrespect to your point of view, but the idea of them actually going ahead and listening to you frightens me. Hardcore Association/franchise/my whatever mode players like myself, I feel, would have an issue with ignored issues in those modes for focus on building a new engine.

You've got me all wrong. I'm a hardcore association guy myself. I make fictional draft classes for my own use. I want an improved Association more than anybody. But I don't think you understand the structure of their development team if you think that Gameplay and Association mode are addressed by the same people. Whatever changes the gameplay devs make would have no bearing on the neglect that the Association modes would have. They're not tied together. It's two different teams.

There's only so much improvement you can make to something that has an outdated foundation. How long do we keep an old foundation? Wouldn't it be better to act now rather than later? I'm aware that rebuilding the gameplay engine would be a step back, but when the current engine has reached its ceiling then there's not much choice, unless we want little 5% improvements every year from now. I think it might be time to step into the future and make the most of the next gen systems. Sure it would be a step back at first, but then it can be 30% improvements from there on afterwards. Personally, i'm bored of the current gameplay anyway so i don't mind sitting a 2k18 out for the sake of a better 2k19, given that i've been playing 2k since 2005. It's all too familiar to me now.

Also, it's not like they wouldn't be able to use elements from the current engines anyway. It's not like they would have to start completely fresh. They still have plenty of mo-cap information. They just need a new way of putting it all together and interpreting it.
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Re: Is 2k starting to feel a little dated to anyone else?

Postby Andrew on Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:19 am

With the launch of NBA 2K14 on PS4/X1, they did introduce a brand new engine for the next generation (Eco-Motion). It seems unlikely that the ceiling has been reached after only a couple of years.
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Re: Is 2k starting to feel a little dated to anyone else?

Postby Nick on Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:31 am

Andrew wrote:With the launch of NBA 2K14 on PS4/X1, they did introduce a brand new engine for the next generation (Eco-Motion). It seems unlikely that the ceiling has been reached after only a couple of years.

Ok cool, i hope so, because there are plenty of tiresome elements that have carried over from pre-2k14 games, such as 2k10
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Re: Is 2k starting to feel a little dated to anyone else?

Postby Andrew on Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:52 am

As I mentioned before though, if certain design choices and approaches are retained, a new engine won't magically solve any and all problems.
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