NBA Live 13 will not be released

Talk about NBA Live 14 here. Archived discussion on NBA Live 13 and NBA Elite 11 can also be found in this section.

Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby shadowgrin on Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:19 am

BLaZiNgSPEED wrote:a game that won't even score 6.5 average reviews. :?

If IGN reviews it it would be at least an 8.

TNBT wrote:I can give feedback to improve the game.

Yes they read/listen/consider those feedback and wishlists. Like they do every year.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby fjccommish on Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:53 pm

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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby homicide1550 on Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:27 pm

Hmmm. not really surprised with the announcement especially with the lack of updates they've been putting out.

I guess it's time to close this part of the forum.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby Neplou on Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:29 am

Man, that sucks! I was hoping to see what they came up with on this version! I have been a fan since way back in the Lakers Vs. Celtics days. I was rooting for them to do well and was secretly hoping they would show me some love and get back in the PC market. Oh well that big dream goes on the shelf!
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby Andrew on Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:51 am

I didn't think they'd end up cancelling the game after what happened with NBA Elite 11 but if they're not satisfied with the product and want to take the extra production cycle to polish it up for next year, so be it. It's a shame, I was hoping that the game could make a strong comeback this year but since the series appears to be going ahead and the developers are checking in on us, we've at least got a good opportunity to provide quality feedback to them directly.

Uros12 wrote:That basically means NBA Live 14 will be in development for 3 years(Im counting in NBA Live 13 development years).It better be good man,that is more than enough time to make a good b-ball game.


That's the problem, they didn't have three years. Production was halted when it was moved to Tiburon, then as I understand it time was spent researching and putting the team together, with the new team really only having one development cycle to work on it. They obviously needed more time, hopefully delaying until NBA Live 14 will afford them that.

Ebook22 wrote:why dont they just stop making basketball games? its already been cancelled twice and it wasnt like anyone was interested in it anyway


Actually, I'd say a fair few people were interested in it before the E3 demonstration and the resulting fallout. Interest did wane after that.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby dascoot on Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:17 am

ok since 2013 isnt coming out. I hope they do have NBA Live 14. to me here are the top things

1) Multiplayer dynasty
2) Save during the offseason
3) In Save Games
4) Bigger Font to read the names of the players in mock draft.
5) In Mock Draft list first and last name of players
6) Realistic Trades
7) Add a draft list this really isn't that big of an issue but would be cool to have. to those of you not knowing what I'm talking about here it is. Draft List is in dynasty mode where from the first year to the current year you are on you see a list of what teams draft what player and draft night trades. Just would be a fun feature to add and something that 2K doesn't have.

to me those the first three are the most important to me.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby Andrew on Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:25 am

The current plan is for the series to continue next year with NBA Live 14, so by all means let's compile constructive feedback. I'd encourage anyone who's interested to get involved in the discussion here: viewtopic.php?f=131&t=87891
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby Postgame on Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:49 am

shadowgrin wrote:
TNBT wrote:I can give feedback to improve the game.

Yes they read/listen/consider those feedback and wishlists. Like they do every year.


First, I want to say that I'm assuming that statement was dripping with sarcasm. If not then this is not directed at you in particular but there are many that think we do not read wishlists and things of that nature.

That is something that simply isn't true. What some people have to understand is that when developing a game you have to take things in a logical progression. Things have to be built upon in order to move ahead to the next, it has to be A, B, C, and a lot of things that get requested are P, T, Z and those things we will try to get to in time but you cannot have some of the requested items until you get the foundation of the core gameplay locked down. You have to look at all things not in a budget of money but time. It takes man hours to accomplish tasks and you are only given so many of those, we have to prioritize what things we want every year and as the project moves along that cut line tends to inch up further the priority list because we run out of time.

If someone asks you would you rather us work on Feature A where you can be rewarded for stealing a pass that you timed perfectly and punished for mistiming it so people don't abuse the feature (and all the tuning that would go along with that) OR Feature B being able to throw yourself an alley-oop off the backboard which is something that may be fun to do but in all honestly is a feature that should be much lower on the priority list for us and rarely, and I mean rarely, occurs in the real NBA outside of the dunk contest, which would you want us to make work?

The truth is we face a great number of much tougher decisions than that one, and that one to me is a no-brainer that you go with feature (A). When you are building a foundation you have to put all these things into perspective and realize that we want the same things you guys do but we are constantly strapped for time, it's not that we ignore your feedback. I may not post a lot on here but I do read these boards often. I read other boards as well but I choose to post here because I feel like the atmosphere in this forum is more conducive to reaching our goal and a dialogue can take place here where we can learn from each other. If I felt that way other places I would visit them as well.

Scott and I both will be around and will answer what we can when you guys have questions but there is only so much we can say until some of the information is disseminated through the proper channels. I think when you guys do wishlists or give us feedback you should continue to break it into chunks but also make sure that the most direct feedback is always the best. I'll give you an example of what I mean. If someone says "your game is too fast" that doesn't really help us identify the problem because a statement like that is subjective often times. If someone says "when I am running full speed and do a crossover I lose zero momentum on the direction change" That is more directed feedback and is something that we can work with. Also something like shot %, if someone says "It's too easy to make 3 pointers" you need to be specific in why you think that. Are you open when you shoot the 3's? who was shooting it? what was his 3pt rating? If a defender was nearby what was his shot block rating? How many did you shoot? How many did you make? What do you think is a good percentage for a 99 rated 3pt shooter if he is wide open? What do you think his percentage should be if he is covered by another player who has a 99 shot block rating?

It's much easier to process things like this because what will happen otherwise is people have different opinions, and different game experiences where one person may go 0-10 and another 8-8 and they will give you complete opposite feedback believe it or not it happens all the time. So you tune it one way and then you hear the other person and then tune it back and you chase your tail. When giving feedback always try to keep these things in your mind so you can best communicate the problems you have with the game. Obviously you won't have the game this year to give feedback on but going forward giving info and feedback to us like this is the easiest way to get what you want accomplished.


Hope this helps.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby Postgame on Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:50 am

Also from now on if you guys prioritize what you would like to see most in each area like a top 10 for gameplay, modes, presentation, etc that would be much more helpful. If we can get a consensus of what the community feels is the most important things it's easier to focus on.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby 22cedric on Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:58 am

Postgame wrote:Also from now on if you guys prioritize what you would like to see most in each area like a top 10 for gameplay, modes, presentation, etc that would be much more helpful. If we can get a consensus of what the community feels is the most important things it's easier to focus on.


Great statements thanks for clearing thing up for the NBA Live fans.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby JaoSming on Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:00 am

Postgame, We can setup a thread for that kind of feedback. To provide clarification, should we assume you guys are able to "copy paste" (I know it's not that easy) features and such from older games, or do you want lists without influence from past games?
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby Andrew on Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:02 am

It is definitely reassuring to hear that our Wishlists are being read. As I've said in other threads, I'm sure you'll find folks around these parts who are willing and able to give quality feedback.

We can put together some lists like that for you, though for the moment I can present you with some of our supplementary materials from last year that include the top wishes for certain areas of the game: viewtopic.php?f=131&t=83174

I think most of them are around 20, though they could probably be trimmed down to a top 10-15 and further clarification could obviously be added if needed.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby Nick on Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:23 am

Hey cool. Thanks for stopping by Postgame. It really is appreciated and makes a huge difference i believe. I really like the idea of opening a dialogue between us and you. There are probably some trolls amongst us here at NLSC, sure, but for the most part there is a lot of guys who have been playing NBA Live since the 90's and early 2000's, and have will have a lot of valuable feedback for you guys at EA. Also, i think it is important for the community to feel involved in the developmental process, as that creates a sense of responsibility amongst the community, which in turn will diminish that sorta attitude of "EA did this and that wrong, they suck at that and this, them them them, blame blame blame", since it's on both of us. Get what i mean? Anyway, just wanted to say - good stuff. (Y)

As for some feedback? Welp, it would be my pleasure. Shall i post it here or somewhere else?
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby Leftos on Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:28 am

Everyone's invited to offer their feedback in a focused and organized manner using this new thread we've set-up especially for it.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby Postgame on Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:46 am

JaoSming wrote:Postgame, We can setup a thread for that kind of feedback. To provide clarification, should we assume you guys are able to "copy paste" (I know it's not that easy) features and such from older games, or do you want lists without influence from past games?



There really is no copying and pasting features from the old lives. Animations we have access to but those games ran on different code than what we work with now and even some of the animations will no longer really work from past lives unless we tweak them to the point where it would just be easier (and look better) to mocap them again.



Andrew as far as gameplay is concerned I can honestly say a lot of that we either have or are working on. I will say though that things like customization of controls is something that probably won't happen for a while if ever because of how many bugs are associated with something like that. It takes a lot of time to work the kinks out in feature like that and it will be used by probably less than 1 or 2 percent of the people who play the game. The development time could probably be spent elsewhere more effectively. (it goes back to the feature A vs feature B argument) Multiple controls schemes are a headache but not as bad as someone customizing it. Those might be more likely to happen.

In regards to something like this:

"Gamers also want smooth, fluid animations with responsive controls. Players need to feel like they have weight and a physical “presence”, but not move sluggishly with clunky-feeling controls like they’re wearing concrete boots or running in mud. Make sure users can break out of animations and that the transition is as seamless as possible."

This is the pie in the sky dream for all of us but it is a hard thing to balance and takes time and I'll explain why. Giving people control isn't necessarily diametrically opposed to giving people great animations but it is EXTREMELY hard to have them both. If you want to be able to branch out of any animation at any time you will have branch points in order to have the player transition from A to B. However, if the animation A to animation B are extremely different in how they are posed you are going to get either a snappy non fluid transition or a slower transition that takes away control and what will feel like responsiveness. Our goal is definitely to solve as many of these situations as possible, it's going to require a ton of animation and at times less control which will take time but we are aware of these issues and it is a high priority. It's much easier to plan for CPU controlled players and make them look better than a user controlled player because they can just spam buttons all over the place and have their player spaz out but then you have to ask yourself how much time should we spend trying to plan for end users who want to make the game look bad? Examples of bad transitions that you guys see will be the best feedback in regards to this but just know that we are working to rectify these problems and we are very much aware.


Again though, most of that gameplay list (my area) is either in or in the plan.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby JaoSming on Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:34 am

It's going to be asked at some point, but what chances of developing a PC version for the next game?
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby Postgame on Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:38 am

I can't really answer that one, I know how much you guys like modding, I used to mod for FPS games back in the day and I know that there are a lot of positives when that happens but I'm not sure that decision makers will agree. I'll say that I hope we do but that is decided much further up.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby Jackal on Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:41 am

You can't really blame us for having posts dripping with sarcasm, I understand it's frustrating for you as a team member, but it's equally frustrating for us as customers when there are things we love about the franchise which seem to be taken out and never added back wishlist after wishlist. I understand the whole A-B-C principle, but something like in game saves can't be added?

Not to mention this is the first time in what seems like forever there is actual community interaction. Not just a meet & greet with a select few (which is a positive btw) and submitting wishlists never to get any to little feedback on them.

We've been submitting wishlists since god knows when, this is the first time I've read anyone say "hey asshat, be more specific please?"

I hope you guys manage an amazing game whenever one is released, I appreciate your effort & hard work and hope I will be enticed enough to buy it again.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby Pdub on Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:23 am

I don't think the modding is the biggest issue. :pirate:
My official stance is that there can always be a way of official in-game customization without infringing on unlicensed materials like jerseys, shoes, and likeness. Gameface is one. Another would be something similar to the create a jersey contest EA had a couple years ago. Designs were controlled through a set of layers and selectable design options. Most of the time, modders improve something in the game, and in some cases have actually fixed bugs. Whether it is just a cyberface or a roster rating. I think EA would be amazed at the result of embracing the customization from gamers in general and not just PC players who mod. We all have the same heart. We just want the game to be better.

As for the reasons of no Live release, only thing I can remember is that EA said something about a delivery method, and then reevaluating games for the PC platform audience(free to play). I thought Origin would be that delivery method. I don't believe we will see Live on the PC until EA can compete sales-wise with 2KSports, though.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby shadowgrin on Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:27 am

Postgame wrote:
shadowgrin wrote:
TNBT wrote:I can give feedback to improve the game.

Yes they read/listen/consider those feedback and wishlists. Like they do every year.


First, I want to say that I'm assuming that statement was dripping with sarcasm. If not then this is not directed at you in particular but there are many that think we do not read wishlists and things of that nature.

What I posted was more of a generalized statement on the history of how the Live developers interact with this NBA Live-centric site in particular.

I know you guys are a completely new dev team (iirc ony 1 guy among you was from the Elite 11 team) but you guys are now the Live dev team and it cannot be avoided that the things you do will be measured up based on the other Live games/devs did in its 16 year history (based on games released) since there are people here in this site that have played Live 95 even way back to its predecessors like the VS series. Hardcore Live franchise fans, yes. Crazy, maybe.
It's up to you guys to prove us (or me) wrong that the new dev team is really sincere in having an interaction with the community to make a good Live game and not just a flash in the pan appearance just because you guys have more free time than usual since Live 13 is cancelled. (sorry for that last part, just couldn't resist the ribbing)

It's actually good to see the activity that you and Scott have here in the NLSC, multiple postings in threads just to reply to posts addressed to you. Both of you guys are probably more active here in a short period of time than the rest of the past dev team members combined who had been here, judging by post count and length of replies alone.


I understand the A-B-C logic but Jackal already made the point I wanted to say. Talking about removed features, also add Create a Team to that. It's been a decade now since that feature has been in a Live game and I think any basketball fan loves to build his own fantasy team just so he can play it.
But I understand that the game you guys are working on is somewhat from scratch so do what you gotta do to get your ABC's right and prioritized.


Postgame wrote:being able to throw yourself an alley-oop off the backboard which is something that may be fun to do but in all honestly is a feature that should be much lower on the priority list for us and rarely, and I mean rarely, occurs in the real NBA outside of the dunk contest

I know a certain NLSC admin who loves that. :lol:
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby Postgame on Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:37 am

Jackal wrote:You can't really blame us for having posts dripping with sarcasm, I understand it's frustrating for you as a team member, but it's equally frustrating for us as customers when there are things we love about the franchise which seem to be taken out and never added back wishlist after wishlist. I understand the whole A-B-C principle, but something like in game saves can't be added?

Not to mention this is the first time in what seems like forever there is actual community interaction. Not just a meet & greet with a select few (which is a positive btw) and submitting wishlists never to get any to little feedback on them.

We've been submitting wishlists since god knows when, this is the first time I've read anyone say "hey asshat, be more specific please?"

I hope you guys manage an amazing game whenever one is released, I appreciate your effort & hard work and hope I will be enticed enough to buy it again.



I don't blame anyone at all for being disappointed, I am disappointed myself. I can understand the frustrations of the community completely. There are plenty of legitimate gripes but one of the things I want to accomplish is to inform you guys as much as I am allowed and raise awareness of how things are viewed from our stand point so we limit the misunderstandings and bad communication of years past. When it comes to features being removed and not added back i cant speak to years past because i wasn't there to know the reasoning behind it. I can tell you that our approach is to make sure we get A right before B etc. in our case we could go two routes, lots of features done to half quality or few features done to great quality. I think most would say get the essentials right first. We all would love to say do both, but with the amount of work and limited time it was an either, or. We are faced with a lot of tough decisions, ones that I can't really elaborate on, trust me that no one gets more angry about a feature getting cut than the designer who worked on it. If it was up to us the game would never ship because we would want to add feature after feature because we are never satisfied but unfortunately time limits us and we have to at some point say ok next year we get this in.

In game saves are something that is on the radar and it wasn't an A,B,C problem as much as it was an either, or problem. I cant get into the nuts and bolts of it but there was a lot that goes into it believe it or not.

Wishlists may not have been responded to but they are often times read. I know that communication has not always been the best. I can't speak for the old studio or team and how they handled it but I can tell you that Scott and I will be around to answer as much as we can. I want us to be judged on what we have done and will do and not on years past, obviously it was a big let down not shipping but we are a dedicated team and we will be back strong. We can only say so much, there are plenty of times I would love to answer questions but my hands are tied, more often than not when you hear nothing from development it is for that very reason. We are a team of people very passionate about basketball, and I think at times the view of our team has been nowhere near that. I hope to change that by speaking with you guys.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby Postgame on Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:53 am

shadowgrin wrote:
Postgame wrote:
shadowgrin wrote:
TNBT wrote:I can give feedback to improve the game.

Yes they read/listen/consider those feedback and wishlists. Like they do every year.


First, I want to say that I'm assuming that statement was dripping with sarcasm. If not then this is not directed at you in particular but there are many that think we do not read wishlists and things of that nature.

What I posted was more of a generalized statement on the history of how the Live developers interact with this NBA Live-centric site in particular.

I know you guys are a completely new dev team (iirc ony 1 guy among you was from the Elite 11 team) but you guys are now the Live dev team and it cannot be avoided that the things you do will be measured up based on the other Live games/devs did in its 16 year history (based on games released) since there are people here in this site that have played Live 95 even way back to its predecessors like the VS series. Hardcore Live franchise fans, yes. Crazy, maybe.
It's up to you guys to prove us (or me) wrong that the new dev team is really sincere in having an interaction with the community to make a good Live game and not just a flash in the pan appearance just because you guys have more free time than usual since Live 13 is cancelled. (sorry for that last part, just couldn't resist the ribbing)

It's actually good to see the activity that you and Scott have here in the NLSC, multiple postings in threads just to reply to posts addressed to you. Both of you guys are probably more active here in a short period of time than the rest of the past dev team members combined who had been here, judging by post count and length of replies alone.


I understand the A-B-C logic but Jackal already made the point I wanted to say. Talking about removed features, also add Create a Team to that. It's been a decade now since that feature has been in a Live game and I think any basketball fan loves to build his own fantasy team just so he can play it.
But I understand that the game you guys are working on is somewhat from scratch so do what you gotta do to get your ABC's right and prioritized.


Postgame wrote:being able to throw yourself an alley-oop off the backboard which is something that may be fun to do but in all honestly is a feature that should be much lower on the priority list for us and rarely, and I mean rarely, occurs in the real NBA outside of the dunk contest

I know a certain NLSC admin who loves that. :lol:



I understand how we get lumped in with the"sins of the past" and I get the frustrations you guys have had. Create a team would be an abc problem, and I'm not saying it wouldn't be cool to have but that wasn't something we were looking at as step A. I don't mind the ribbing and jao is going to have to wait for the Javale McGee special.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby JaoSming on Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:08 am

:(


Somehow...I think I will survive. (Y)

Identifying what is and isn't an ABC problem in the feedback list thread would be very useful. Just so we know how to focus on what needs to be addressed.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby Andrew on Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:46 am

That's great to hear a lot of the stuff on that list is feasible and actually in the works. I appreciate the insight into custom controller configurations too; from my perspective, so long as the controls scheme that's available is intuitive and responsive, I can grow accustomed to what the game presents me with. For a while there, THQ were changing up the control scheme in their WWE series in some way from game-to-game and it was always easy enough to adjust. If the controls work and feel good, I think people will adapt.

We also realise that you guys don't make the call about the PC version but you'll probably see mention of it here and there in the hopes that the folks that do make that call will reconsider. ;)
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby Pdub on Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:06 am

The thing about the ABC's reminds me of features getting taken out or re-written because once you have all the A's and start on the B's, the B's break the A's and you end up having to start over. What I am trying to get at is it seems like Live is tightly coded where one thing depends on the other, and once you change one thing, it breaks the balance of the game. So, when you are building your foundations, keep in mind that you will have to tune them later on when you want to add or change something. Think of it like interchangeable parts.

What I would do, is look at C or Z or wherever you would like the end result to be, then go backwards towards the basic fundamentals. That way you know the steps to take to get to your ultimate goal.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby Ermolli on Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:18 am

Postgame wrote:...
Hope this helps.


I know there are priorities while making a game, that you can't put everything you want in the game in a year cycle, etc but there has been things that have been asked for years and it's like those things were ignored, two that come to my mind right now are animations and body models. Are you telling me those couple aren't in the A or B in the priorities list? As you've said the foundation of the core gameplay has to be locked down before adding other stuff but aren't animations a huge part of the foundation? If the game doesn't look right or the moves made by the players are awkward, it doesn't matter how responsive the game could be, gamers would be turned off by it. I believe that if you ask most basketball gamers where would they locate animations in a priority list they would place it really high.
About body models, I've read that the team during the Live 13 cycle have spent around 100 hours making each face. Were faces part of the A or B of priorities? Yeah, most faces were really good but if the body models don't look right then it doesn't matter how much effort it's been put on faces. The entire graphic part of the game should be treated the same, faces, body models, body types, lightning, uniforms (which from the pics don't look that good), stadiums, etc.

Most basketball gamers have been disappointed and not trusting EA's basketball department because they feel they haven't been listened and taken into consideration, they/we are looking for a bidirectional exchange of communication whcih they/we feel you care about us because, after all, we're people who are potential consumers of your products.

Also, I feel it's very difficult to give feedback about the game when we we almost don't know anything about the game itself. The only things we could give feedback about something relatively current is some few screenshots, a trailer and a leaked gameplay video (which could be useless since Scott said today that the video is old). If you really want feedback then the team shouldn't hide from us like you did during the Live 13 cycle because it doesn't help any side. I'm not asking a full game of gameplay per month but we need to know and see more about the game in order to help make it better. People over the Live forums around the internet feel ignored by EA so you (EA Bbal team) need to try to erase thad bad image even though you're not entirely to blame, I feel that if you want to gain again people's trust you shouldn't just be here because it makes the rest feel outside of this.

I hope you, Scott or the rest of the team don't take it the wrong way, I'm trying to give constructive criticism to maybe help you realize how many feel about the Live franchise.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby Postgame on Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:14 pm

Pdub wrote:The thing about the ABC's reminds me of features getting taken out or re-written because once you have all the A's and start on the B's, the B's break the A's and you end up having to start over. What I am trying to get at is it seems like Live is tightly coded where one thing depends on the other, and once you change one thing, it breaks the balance of the game. So, when you are building your foundations, keep in mind that you will have to tune them later on when you want to add or change something. Think of it like interchangeable parts.

What I would do, is look at C or Z or wherever you would like the end result to be, then go backwards towards the basic fundamentals. That way you know the steps to take to get to your ultimate goal.


This is true and works to a certain extent. It is hard to tune basketball games in general because of how quickly the state flow changes. Basketball at its core is very fluid in flow, you can change possession and role very rapidly but your point is understood. You just have to make sure that the solutions to the problems are not band aid solutions and they are real solutions that work in the real nba. Trying to fix problems with band aids will get you in trouble later down the road so we avoid that at all costs.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby Postgame on Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:12 pm

Ermolli wrote:
Postgame wrote:...
Hope this helps.


I know there are priorities while making a game, that you can't put everything you want in the game in a year cycle, etc but there has been things that have been asked for years and it's like those things were ignored, two that come to my mind right now are animations and body models. Are you telling me those couple aren't in the A or B in the priorities list? As you've said the foundation of the core gameplay has to be locked down before adding other stuff but aren't animations a huge part of the foundation? If the game doesn't look right or the moves made by the players are awkward, it doesn't matter how responsive the game could be, gamers would be turned off by it. I believe that if you ask most basketball gamers where would they locate animations in a priority list they would place it really high.
About body models, I've read that the team during the Live 13 cycle have spent around 100 hours making each face. Were faces part of the A or B of priorities? Yeah, most faces were really good but if the body models don't look right then it doesn't matter how much effort it's been put on faces. The entire graphic part of the game should be treated the same, faces, body models, body types, lightning, uniforms (which from the pics don't look that good), stadiums, etc.

Most basketball gamers have been disappointed and not trusting EA's basketball department because they feel they haven't been listened and taken into consideration, they/we are looking for a bidirectional exchange of communication whcih they/we feel you care about us because, after all, we're people who are potential consumers of your products.

Also, I feel it's very difficult to give feedback about the game when we we almost don't know anything about the game itself. The only things we could give feedback about something relatively current is some few screenshots, a trailer and a leaked gameplay video (which could be useless since Scott said today that the video is old). If you really want feedback then the team shouldn't hide from us like you did during the Live 13 cycle because it doesn't help any side. I'm not asking a full game of gameplay per month but we need to know and see more about the game in order to help make it better. People over the Live forums around the internet feel ignored by EA so you (EA Bbal team) need to try to erase thad bad image even though you're not entirely to blame, I feel that if you want to gain again people's trust you shouldn't just be here because it makes the rest feel outside of this.

I hope you, Scott or the rest of the team don't take it the wrong way, I'm trying to give constructive criticism to maybe help you realize how many feel about the Live franchise.



I agree animations are very important. I had stated earlier where those were in our priorities in this thread. Animations are a heavy focus, the problems with animations I also listed above. I have read countless threads at OS about animations, trust me when I say we agree with the criticisms about them. One of the issues that I didn't elaborate on is that you have to have the systems in place before you can add the animations to really fill out the feature because you have to know how you need to author the animations in order for them to work. I know you guys don't have a lot to go off of when it comes to feedback and I wish I could show you more but my hands are tied. I wasn't hiding during the cycle, I stopped by here a few times during the cycle but you have to understand not a lot can be said during that time for obvious reasons.

Also in regards to body models, those are not on the gameplay team, but I can tell you that we have ways of tweaking them and my understanding was they were put against full body photos of the players. I agree with some of the feedback I read about the shoulders and the jerseys and to a lesser extent skin tones but that stuff is the art team. Bad animations you can yell at gameplay about. The faces were art team as well, they didn't spend 100 on every head but the superstars for the most part they did. I can't do anything about years past in regards to community interaction but I have been reading the forums for months and there have been plenty of times that I wanted to respond but I can't because of limitations of what I am allowed to say.

I understand why a lot of the community is jaded and all I can do to change it is try to be as open as I'm allowed to be. For the time being ill answer what I can here on nlsc but know that I do read all the threads on OS as well. They may feel ignored but they aren't. I agree with a lot of the feedback said over there and plan on doing as much as I can to rectify those problems. You aren't offending anyone by saying how you feel, we are grown men and can take negative feedback, and most likely agree with what is being said. You can say something sucks or its garbage but unless you elaborate on why you feel that way it's not very helpful. You will get asked questions and posed with potential problems with making decisions to better illustrate the position we are sometimes in. To have the bidirectional exchanges that you guys want both parties have to want the game to succeed and then we can move together towards that goal. Again for now ill be here answering whatever questions I can to anyone that wants to ask them and let it be known that I am a big boy and can handle the criticisms.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby Nick on Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:03 pm

Which part of the team works on Dynasty mode? How many people in the team?
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby AMenace on Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:10 pm

I personally think it's great that the developers are taking time out of Live 14 to keep us informed on what's going on, the direction from here etc.

I think there is 2 aspects that EA can win back customers for next year's game, that is online and a lot of customization. That is if the core gameplay is up to standard. I understand that gameplay should come first, as with all games, although I don't think so many hours should have been spent getting the faces right with the gameplay first approach in mind.

After playing the 2K13 demo, one thing is obvious, and that is 2K need some competition, or something different needs to be out there, that's why the team has my full support for this upcoming development cycle. For areas like customization, things such as jerseys, gear, custom shoes not limited to nike, jordan, heck, even creating your own basketball to use in the game would be innovative and would get customers. What EA did with the jersey creation tool for Live 09 is something that could be implemented or at least be a seperate online tool.

How you could approach that is the following: In layers, first have a colour, then side trim selection, colour for side trims, neck type, then some textures for placing an effect on the jersey, then lettering for the name, then numbers, and then a logo design feature similar to the emblem creator in Call Of Duty Black Ops. That had not that many options for shapes etc, but virtually anything could be created. Also this would work in create a team, or even team up crews online.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby benji on Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:31 pm

I'd like to inquire about philosophical components.

When you create the AI design how do you intend to go about it? (Or have at this point, rather, assume "start of development" situation.) Do you start with an AI that always can stop the individual player/itself and introduce flaws to it? Is this too resource intensive and so are you taking what existed in past Lives and reworking it instead?

Greg Thomas claimed years ago that in the case of Madden there are fundamental AI and gameplay rules that cannot be broken (even to improve them) because it violates "how Madden is supposed to play", assume this to be a true statement, is there such a requirement on Live or how you are approaching Live? Is there a notion that Live needs to be a slightly arcadey take on basketball or could it become a hardcore basketball simulation no one would want to play? Again, where do you start?

In terms of the differentiation of players is the 0-99 rating system the best method? Is there significant noticeable difference to the player between a 80 rated rebounder and 81 rated? I'm sure you've played some of 2K's My Player, in many instances when you "level up" your rating (outside of shooting mostly) there's little noticeable difference in how well you can do things with that player. Getting 15 rebounds with a 65 rated rebounder is not significantly harder than doing so with Dwight Howard. I know I'm discussing a different game series, but it's something that's been an issue across all games since Double Dribble and has been in Live's past. Especially consider something like the steal rating, there's a hundred ratings, but it's rare that players average more than three steals or 3% in steal percentage. Is there again a real fundamental difference between a player who gets 2.8 steals and 2.9? A difference between a 91 rated and 95? Especially when a player's average changes from month to month, year to year, etc.

Maybe going to more ratings and thus simply using the statistical value is better at differentiation. Or perhaps shrinking to a grade system, F, D, C, B, A, A+/S (since it's a video game) loses no important information? Dwight being a 99 rebounder means what? Dwight being the only A+/S rated rebounder in the game places him clearly above all other players as each "step" matters more.

And in discussing ratings, how exactly do some impact and how to show this to the player? Take the "offensive awareness" rating, should not Shane Battier be highly rated in this? What value does a highly rated player in these categories indicate to the player? How does it affect what I can do with him?

And that comes back to if these distinctions are even impacting the player. James Jones likely can do crossovers and spin moves, he won't dribble off his feet or lose control, but you can't allow him to do this in game, is slowing him down more realistic, or is it less a function of what he's doing but the defense? How do you stop me from just spamming threes with him without "altering" his abilities?

It's easy to make an AI Bestbrook go wild and out of control, pull up for threes the instant he comes down court, but how do you make the player say "Why Not?" Can you? Does a Westbrook who doesn't ask this question and play right "break" how he, the team and the game plays? Do you just let players do that since they're in control? How do you impose usage limitations on the player instead of LeBron using 80% of possessions?
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby NBaller_76 on Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:12 pm

Both from a business point of view, and also from a huge NBA fan (from Malta in Europe) I wouldn't scrap all the work done on NBA Live 13. The best thing to do now for EA Sports is look at the Market....and guess what ?? Is there any 'Fifa Manager 13' type of basketball game around ?? The answer is NO!! So, if EA Sports failed in Simulation NBA games, it should work on getting the best NBA Management game ever !! I've been longing to have such a game for so long. Now EA Sports have the NBA license, the player models are there, the courts, cyberfaces and other graphics are all there...they should just work on the Management area of the game (like drafts, contracts, training, sponsors,match dynamics like in Fifa Manager etc)...and produce the best ever NBA Management game !! What do you think Andrew and all those reading my comment ?
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby Andrew on Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:19 pm

As I said in my comments on the news post, it's an interesting idea but I'm not that interested in management games and it doesn't appear there's been enough demand for a basketball manager in the past for EA to create one, so I don't know about the chances of that. Personally, I'd rather the NBA Live series remained a gameplay based, sim oriented game that re-establishes itself as a viable alternative to NBA 2K, but if the market is there then perhaps a spinoff title could be explored.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby Postgame on Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:18 am

benji wrote:I'd like to inquire about philosophical components.

When you create the AI design how do you intend to go about it? (Or have at this point, rather, assume "start of development" situation.) Do you start with an AI that always can stop the individual player/itself and introduce flaws to it? Is this too resource intensive and so are you taking what existed in past Lives and reworking it instead?

Greg Thomas claimed years ago that in the case of Madden there are fundamental AI and gameplay rules that cannot be broken (even to improve them) because it violates "how Madden is supposed to play", assume this to be a true statement, is there such a requirement on Live or how you are approaching Live? Is there a notion that Live needs to be a slightly arcadey take on basketball or could it become a hardcore basketball simulation no one would want to play? Again, where do you start?

In terms of the differentiation of players is the 0-99 rating system the best method? Is there significant noticeable difference to the player between a 80 rated rebounder and 81 rated? I'm sure you've played some of 2K's My Player, in many instances when you "level up" your rating (outside of shooting mostly) there's little noticeable difference in how well you can do things with that player. Getting 15 rebounds with a 65 rated rebounder is not significantly harder than doing so with Dwight Howard. I know I'm discussing a different game series, but it's something that's been an issue across all games since Double Dribble and has been in Live's past. Especially consider something like the steal rating, there's a hundred ratings, but it's rare that players average more than three steals or 3% in steal percentage. Is there again a real fundamental difference between a player who gets 2.8 steals and 2.9? A difference between a 91 rated and 95? Especially when a player's average changes from month to month, year to year, etc.

Maybe going to more ratings and thus simply using the statistical value is better at differentiation. Or perhaps shrinking to a grade system, F, D, C, B, A, A+/S (since it's a video game) loses no important information? Dwight being a 99 rebounder means what? Dwight being the only A+/S rated rebounder in the game places him clearly above all other players as each "step" matters more.

And in discussing ratings, how exactly do some impact and how to show this to the player? Take the "offensive awareness" rating, should not Shane Battier be highly rated in this? What value does a highly rated player in these categories indicate to the player? How does it affect what I can do with him?

And that comes back to if these distinctions are even impacting the player. James Jones likely can do crossovers and spin moves, he won't dribble off his feet or lose control, but you can't allow him to do this in game, is slowing him down more realistic, or is it less a function of what he's doing but the defense? How do you stop me from just spamming threes with him without "altering" his abilities?

It's easy to make an AI Bestbrook go wild and out of control, pull up for threes the instant he comes down court, but how do you make the player say "Why Not?" Can you? Does a Westbrook who doesn't ask this question and play right "break" how he, the team and the game plays? Do you just let players do that since they're in control? How do you impose usage limitations on the player instead of LeBron using 80% of possessions?



The approach that we are taking when it comes to AI is that we are going to take what works and doesn't work in real life nba, break down why it does or does not and then try to simulate it as much as we can. This gets tricky at times and it's very easy to allow exploits if you don't test things out thoroughly but for us, with the goal being a simulation basketball game, this is the best way to go about doing it. When you look at basketball there is a reason why the pick and roll is so effective and hard to defend, a defense really has to play as a team and help in order to slow it down. There are different strategies to defending the pick and roll and you have to break those down as to why and when you do them and you have to give the same risk reward to the user in the simulation as you do in real basketball. Every time you design any feature you have to think of balance, you can't just say, oh it would be cool if I can just do this move and score because there are consequences with that move in real life and if you don't account for them in a simulation then they become an exploit. Take the post for example, why don't teams just throw it to Dwight Howard every single play? He can beat his man the majority of the time and very few centers can slow him down. You can't do it because he gets denied/double teamed and in late game situations you don't do it because he can't hit free throws to put the game away and teams are going to intentionally foul him. What happens though is because he is such a presence and you have to double team him, it opens up other guys, guys like Ryan Anderson made a living off of this fact, Kobe will probably get a lot more open looks next year as well with Gasol and Howard down low. When they cheat down to help you have to make sure that you punish them by kicking the ball back out and you can't let the defender close out at an unrealistic speed or the balance is lost. Every step of the way you have to think about risk/reward, otherwise the game gets out of control and unbalanced. The hardest part is isolating every single one of these variables and making sure that when you build on the logic that you don't do damage to the work you have already done, this is an extremely challenging juggling act and its why basketball is probably the hardest sim game to make. I think that a sim basketball game can be extremely fun because it teaches people the sport at the same time they are playing. Madden has taught people football for years to the point that people who never played a down in their life can understand what is going on when they watch the NFL. Why not make basketball the same way? There is a reason why Guards in the NBA don't do a thousand dribble moves every time they come down the court, hoping that they break the defenders ankle and shoot every trip down or never pass the ball and become a black hole that the ball never leaves. (well.... other than westbrook) You have to break down the "why" and try to create that as much as possible. If you are going to make an NBA game that is supposed to be a simulation it had better be a simulation, if you want arcade style basketball there is Jam and the old Street games. Once people understand the rules of any game they can learn and adapt to it and I think that is something we should strive for. I can't get into exactly what we did with AI this year but I was extremely happy with how the offensive AI turned out. We have a solid foundation for it that we are going to really blow out in the future and we will build just as solid of a defensive side.


Ratings are something that play a big factor in how we do things and I do believe the 0-99 is the best route to go. The difference is frame count, basketball is about using as minimal movement to create the greatest amount of space possible. You try to get your defender off balance as much as possible and the defender has to recover as quickly as possible. Ratings play a factor in frame count of how quickly these actions can take place. Shooting percentages etc are all factored by the players rating as well as the defenders. You may not see a huge difference between 80-81 but there is a slight one. I think overall ratings are overrated personally, they really serve no purpose, it's the actual individual ratings that matter because that is how players measure up to one another in game. People get caught up in who has a better overall rating but that formula is so subjective, it's much easier to argue individual attribute ratings because you can use film and statistics and we have a way of measuring how a player is affected by those in game. I have no way of knowing how other games handle them but I can speak for ours. Steals for example are scaled speed wise based on how good your steal rating is, then your ball handling rating says how fast your guy protects against a steal attempt, this is how you distinguish the difference between a guard trying to rip Chris Paul which really happens never, and a guard ripping Noah if he is trying to take the ball down the court. When you factor frame count into everything it is always affected by roster updates so that is how we handle it. Rebounding is similar in how much coverage a player can cover to grab a board, better rebounders get more coverage based on ratings.

The offensive awareness is something I can't really get into at this point but it does matter in our game.

Shooting ratings again are affected by both players involved, you also have to time the shot to get that highest percent chance of making it. For the last questions I can say that through synergy, real AI, and fatigue we can accomplish a great, great, deal of realism. I can't say much more than that at the moment.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby benji on Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:55 am

Postgame wrote: I think overall ratings are overrated personally, they really serve no purpose, it's the actual individual ratings that matter because that is how players measure up to one another in game. People get caught up in who has a better overall rating but that formula is so subjective, it's much easier to argue individual attribute ratings because you can use film and statistics and we have a way of measuring how a player is affected by those in game.

You realize, of course, that you've unintentionally attached yourself to the irrational hobbyhorse of the guy who started the infamous Live 07 letter.

No overall ratings. Make it happen.
Steals for example are scaled speed wise based on how good your steal rating is, then your ball handling rating says how fast your guy protects against a steal attempt, this is how you distinguish the difference between a guard trying to rip Chris Paul which really happens never, and a guard ripping Noah if he is trying to take the ball down the court. When you factor frame count into everything it is always affected by roster updates so that is how we handle it. Rebounding is similar in how much coverage a player can cover to grab a board, better rebounders get more coverage based on ratings.

The offensive awareness is something I can't really get into at this point but it does matter in our game.

See, here's the thing. Compare these descriptions. I can suss out your steal explanation on my own because it makes sense and it's rationally how to do it. But the offensive awareness, some of the other ratings and stuff are just opaque. It's difficult for the player to establish a differential between players in that regard.

And your point on the 81/80 thing was poor wording on my part, I get the underlying nature of these differences, but to the player, are they noticeable? Do they serve to differentiate players and why are they superior to more raw numbers then? I brought up the 2K MyPlayer stuff because as you level through the players it's quite visible how little many of the ratings actually do matter to your own performance. And I can't speak to Elite 11 or Live 13 obviously, but past Live games, past 2K games, games in other franchises that no longer exist, all suffered from similar issues in making the players appear to be clear individuals when they're in your hands.

Part of my questions regarding AI and such were not about the process, I get the process, I want to figure out the philosophy you guys are applying to these issues. We've heard a lot of what you're saying before again and again, we've heard "oh, we can't talk about that but we want it great" and so on and so forth. I think an important point, and with you and Scott being gameplay designers I think it would do wonders to not talk in these vague cliches that every game developer uses but to dig down into the philosophical underpinning of the reasoning. You noted "three pointers are too easy" is too vague. You asked what happens when a 99 three point shooter is defended by a 99 shot blocker what should happen? What should a 99 rated shooter when he's wide open, don't you have the synergy numbers, why care about ratings, shouldn't it be based on a multi-year average of what the player actually shoots in that situation? But we don't know what your latest build does, you do. We can't go all the way back to Live 10 now and think that applies to what you're doing. We can't go to 2K either. We don't know what those values are inherently supposed to represent. The 99th percentile, the best five guys, etc.

Right, of course, you can't throw it to Dwight in every possession. In these games, I basically can. Of course you guys and the guys at VC want to make otherwise, but how? I don't know, you guys might not know, but there are ways to discuss these types of things so maybe someone on here or OS or GAF or elsewhere DOES know.

I can't speak to your actual situation, but from the outside you're in an unique situation with next gen coming and a bit of freedom from the standard 10ish month dev cycle. You can hopefully, as you noted, drill down to the essentials in a way the folks at VC can't do every year. What I want to know is unlike every other promise in gaming, or world history, how are you intending differently. In other words, what is your plan? What is your foundation?

I know I know, you can't say. THAT'S what needs to change. Basketball video games are not the Manhattan Project.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby Postgame on Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:27 am

benji wrote:
Postgame wrote: I think overall ratings are overrated personally, they really serve no purpose, it's the actual individual ratings that matter because that is how players measure up to one another in game. People get caught up in who has a better overall rating but that formula is so subjective, it's much easier to argue individual attribute ratings because you can use film and statistics and we have a way of measuring how a player is affected by those in game.

You realize, of course, that you've unintentionally attached yourself to the irrational hobbyhorse of the guy who started the infamous Live 07 letter.

No overall ratings. Make it happen.
Steals for example are scaled speed wise based on how good your steal rating is, then your ball handling rating says how fast your guy protects against a steal attempt, this is how you distinguish the difference between a guard trying to rip Chris Paul which really happens never, and a guard ripping Noah if he is trying to take the ball down the court. When you factor frame count into everything it is always affected by roster updates so that is how we handle it. Rebounding is similar in how much coverage a player can cover to grab a board, better rebounders get more coverage based on ratings.

The offensive awareness is something I can't really get into at this point but it does matter in our game.

See, here's the thing. Compare these descriptions. I can suss out your steal explanation on my own because it makes sense and it's rationally how to do it. But the offensive awareness, some of the other ratings and stuff are just opaque. It's difficult for the player to establish a differential between players in that regard.

And your point on the 81/80 thing was poor wording on my part, I get the underlying nature of these differences, but to the player, are they noticeable? Do they serve to differentiate players and why are they superior to more raw numbers then? I brought up the 2K MyPlayer stuff because as you level through the players it's quite visible how little many of the ratings actually do matter to your own performance. And I can't speak to Elite 11 or Live 13 obviously, but past Live games, past 2K games, games in other franchises that no longer exist, all suffered from similar issues in making the players appear to be clear individuals when they're in your hands.

Part of my questions regarding AI and such were not about the process, I get the process, I want to figure out the philosophy you guys are applying to these issues. We've heard a lot of what you're saying before again and again, we've heard "oh, we can't talk about that but we want it great" and so on and so forth. I think an important point, and with you and Scott being gameplay designers I think it would do wonders to not talk in these vague cliches that every game developer uses but to dig down into the philosophical underpinning of the reasoning. You noted "three pointers are too easy" is too vague. You asked what happens when a 99 three point shooter is defended by a 99 shot blocker what should happen? What should a 99 rated shooter when he's wide open, don't you have the synergy numbers, why care about ratings, shouldn't it be based on a multi-year average of what the player actually shoots in that situation? But we don't know what your latest build does, you do. We can't go all the way back to Live 10 now and think that applies to what you're doing. We can't go to 2K either. We don't know what those values are inherently supposed to represent. The 99th percentile, the best five guys, etc.

Right, of course, you can't throw it to Dwight in every possession. In these games, I basically can. Of course you guys and the guys at VC want to make otherwise, but how? I don't know, you guys might not know, but there are ways to discuss these types of things so maybe someone on here or OS or GAF or elsewhere DOES know.

I can't speak to your actual situation, but from the outside you're in an unique situation with next gen coming and a bit of freedom from the standard 10ish month dev cycle. You can hopefully, as you noted, drill down to the essentials in a way the folks at VC can't do every year. What I want to know is unlike every other promise in gaming, or world history, how are you intending differently. In other words, what is your plan? What is your foundation?

I know I know, you can't say. THAT'S what needs to change. Basketball video games are not the Manhattan Project.




I wish I had control of overall ratings, but sadly I do not. I think the fear of backlash of their removal would be too much for some but I'll continue on that campaign for the good of all. :D


The problem with discussing offensive awareness and how it and synergy plays into things is because it is tied into offensive AI and how we plan on using them effectively. I guess I can answer your question with a question at this point and say "how would you expect a players Bball IQ to affect how they play?" answer that and you will probably be close to what we are trying to do.

ratings are handled similar to how you describe and our roster guy is a former community guy that breathes stats and NBA in general.

I want to not be vague, I really do. I don't know that it's always the best policy but there are reasons why we can't say certain things and I have no control over that unfortunately. I am not trying to sell anyone on anything, I want to make that clear. I'm here for flow of information and trying to establish as much of a relationship as I can with you guys. I can understand all the frustrations of the community but I do not have the power to correct all of them.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby benji on Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:47 am

The way I always put the overall rating argument is this, even though it's become increasingly dated. It prevents a player from giving Jalen Rose a max contract. Hell, it prevents much of Billy King's entire career.
Postgame wrote:The problem with discussing offensive awareness and how it and synergy plays into things is because it is tied into offensive AI and how we plan on using them effectively. I guess I can answer your question with a question at this point and say "how would you expect a players Bball IQ to affect how they play?" answer that and you will probably be close to what we are trying to do.

That gets back to my example of Shane Battier though. Traditionally a player of his type would have maybe above average offensive awareness if that, even though probably any casual evaluation would rank him as one of the smartest players in the league. If OffAware just modifies the offensive ratings why not just create greater strata within those ratings and leave OffAware to that IQ situation. So the player spaces better, moves better, etc. Traditionally the rating has not really done this.

I hope you can see the point I'm trying to make about some of these more subjective ratings and how they appear to the player. Even if they are affecting things within the game.

I, of course, have no idea how you are implementing it currently.
ratings are handled similar to how you describe and our roster guy is a former community guy that breathes stats and NBA in general.

huh
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby Nick on Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:16 am

NBaller_76 wrote:Both from a business point of view, and also from a huge NBA fan (from Malta in Europe) I wouldn't scrap all the work done on NBA Live 13. The best thing to do now for EA Sports is look at the Market....and guess what ?? Is there any 'Fifa Manager 13' type of basketball game around ?? The answer is NO!! So, if EA Sports failed in Simulation NBA games, it should work on getting the best NBA Management game ever !! I've been longing to have such a game for so long. Now EA Sports have the NBA license, the player models are there, the courts, cyberfaces and other graphics are all there...they should just work on the Management area of the game (like drafts, contracts, training, sponsors,match dynamics like in Fifa Manager etc)...and produce the best ever NBA Management game !! What do you think Andrew and all those reading my comment ?

I am with you 100% on that one. For years i have wished for an NBA version of Football Manager or FIFA manager. I would totally fall in love with EA if they focused purely on a management mode and made it amazingly deep and awesome. But as Andrew said - unfortunately there may not be enough of a market that share this wish for EA to deem it a profitable route to pursue.

Interesting dialogue currently being created between benji and Postgame here. *grabs popcorn* Some key issues getting looked at.

Postgame wrote:our roster guy is a former community guy that breathes stats and NBA in general.

How has benji had time to post at these forums if he works for EA??
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby Postgame on Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:47 am

benji wrote:The way I always put the overall rating argument is this, even though it's become increasingly dated. It prevents a player from giving Jalen Rose a max contract. Hell, it prevents much of Billy King's entire career.
Postgame wrote:The problem with discussing offensive awareness and how it and synergy plays into things is because it is tied into offensive AI and how we plan on using them effectively. I guess I can answer your question with a question at this point and say "how would you expect a players Bball IQ to affect how they play?" answer that and you will probably be close to what we are trying to do.

That gets back to my example of Shane Battier though. Traditionally a player of his type would have maybe above average offensive awareness if that, even though probably any casual evaluation would rank him as one of the smartest players in the league. If OffAware just modifies the offensive ratings why not just create greater strata within those ratings and leave OffAware to that IQ situation. So the player spaces better, moves better, etc. Traditionally the rating has not really done this.

I hope you can see the point I'm trying to make about some of these more subjective ratings and how they appear to the player. Even if they are affecting things within the game.

I, of course, have no idea how you are implementing it currently.
ratings are handled similar to how you describe and our roster guy is a former community guy that breathes stats and NBA in general.

huh


You are touching on what it essentially does in our game, i can't say much more than that. It doesn't affect other ratings, it has a purpose of it's own similar to what you are asking for.


As for the second statement I was commenting on how you described ratings should be somewhat of an average of past years ratings, our ratings guy handles it just that way. He eats, breathes, and lives stats, and not just the most recent years stats.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby shadowgrin on Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Postgame wrote:our roster guy is a former community guy that breathes stats and NBA in general.
Postgame wrote:He eats, breathes, and lives stats, and not just the most recent years stats.

Now you intrigue me. Who. Is. He?
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby Pdub on Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:46 pm

shadowgrin wrote:
Postgame wrote:our roster guy is a former community guy that breathes stats and NBA in general.
Postgame wrote:He eats, breathes, and lives stats, and not just the most recent years stats.

Now you intrigue me. Who. Is. He?


Why the 2K insider of course!
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby 22cedric on Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:44 pm

Postgame wrote:
Jackal wrote:You can't really blame us for having posts dripping with sarcasm, I understand it's frustrating for you as a team member, but it's equally frustrating for us as customers when there are things we love about the franchise which seem to be taken out and never added back wishlist after wishlist. I understand the whole A-B-C principle, but something like in game saves can't be added?

Not to mention this is the first time in what seems like forever there is actual community interaction. Not just a meet & greet with a select few (which is a positive btw) and submitting wishlists never to get any to little feedback on them.

We've been submitting wishlists since god knows when, this is the first time I've read anyone say "hey asshat, be more specific please?"

I hope you guys manage an amazing game whenever one is released, I appreciate your effort & hard work and hope I will be enticed enough to buy it again.



I don't blame anyone at all for being disappointed, I am disappointed myself. I can understand the frustrations of the community completely. There are plenty of legitimate gripes but one of the things I want to accomplish is to inform you guys as much as I am allowed and raise awareness of how things are viewed from our stand point so we limit the misunderstandings and bad communication of years past. When it comes to features being removed and not added back i cant speak to years past because i wasn't there to know the reasoning behind it. I can tell you that our approach is to make sure we get A right before B etc. in our case we could go two routes, lots of features done to half quality or few features done to great quality. I think most would say get the essentials right first. We all would love to say do both, but with the amount of work and limited time it was an either, or. We are faced with a lot of tough decisions, ones that I can't really elaborate on, trust me that no one gets more angry about a feature getting cut than the designer who worked on it. If it was up to us the game would never ship because we would want to add feature after feature because we are never satisfied but unfortunately time limits us and we have to at some point say ok next year we get this in.

In game saves are something that is on the radar and it wasn't an A,B,C problem as much as it was an either, or problem. I cant get into the nuts and bolts of it but there was a lot that goes into it believe it or not.

Wishlists may not have been responded to but they are often times read. I know that communication has not always been the best. I can't speak for the old studio or team and how they handled it but I can tell you that Scott and I will be around to answer as much as we can. I want us to be judged on what we have done and will do and not on years past, obviously it was a big let down not shipping but we are a dedicated team and we will be back strong. We can only say so much, there are plenty of times I would love to answer questions but my hands are tied, more often than not when you hear nothing from development it is for that very reason. We are a team of people very passionate about basketball, and I think at times the view of our team has been nowhere near that. I hope to change that by speaking with you guys.


Scott & Postgame I want NBA Live to succeed but NBA Live 14 will have to be a full fledged title that will compete with NBA 2K right out the gate.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby macbookproi5 on Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:47 am

Don't release the game anymore
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby NovU on Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:51 am

Having played Live series since 90s, I was excited to hear Live series making a comeback and I even went to the playtest here in GVA. So it saddens me a little to hear it got cancelled. :( It's cool to see developer(s) in our forum though.

On the topic of ratings, I should say probably most sports games in general have it somewhat biased than not. Say for instance, can't say am pleased with 2K13 player ratings. But they are probably more or less on par with casual fans' expectations, which still doesn't make it truly 'sim' enough for many of us. I mean it has Carmelo(& Kobe 4th best? lol) in the same mix with Chris Paul, when in reality, there absolutely is no good justification to this.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby shadowgrin on Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:05 am

NovU wrote:On the topic of ratings, I should say probably most sports games in general have it somewhat biased than not. Say for instance, can't say am pleased with 2K13 player ratings. But they are probably more or less on par with casual fans' expectations, which still doesn't make it truly 'sim' enough for many of us. I mean it has Carmelo(& Kobe 4th best? lol) in the same mix with Chris Paul, when in reality, there absolutely is no good justification to this.

Why does it matter if Carmelo's and Kobe's overall ratings make them in the same mix as Chris Paul when it's the individual ratings that really matter and comparing or separating players based on overall ratings is not really truly 'sim' at all like you want it to.

Postgame wrote:I think overall ratings are overrated personally, they really serve no purpose, it's the actual individual ratings that matter because that is how players measure up to one another in game. People get caught up in who has a better overall rating but that formula is so subjective, it's much easier to argue individual attribute ratings because you can use film and statistics and we have a way of measuring how a player is affected by those in game.
Postgame wrote:I wish I had control of overall ratings, but sadly I do not. I think the fear of backlash of their removal would be too much for some
benji wrote:The way I always put the overall rating argument is this, even though it's become increasingly dated. It prevents a player from giving Jalen Rose a max contract. Hell, it prevents much of Billy King's entire career.



Pdub wrote:Why the 2K insider of course!

Oh, that idiot.
'X player has three consecutive games where he shot well from 3, let's give him 90+ rating for 3-pointers in the next roster update even though player X has been mediocre shooting the 3 for his entire career!'

macbookproi5 wrote:Don't release the game anymore

This guy thinks the same way too.
And what I am about to write here, I would say in their presence: EA Sports should junk its NBA simulation. Just get out of it and this license altogether. There is no upside to kicking the NBA Live can another year down the road, for either management or labor. Two straight efforts at publishing an NBA simulation have failed, which didn't even happen in the days when games were sold on cartridges. It only gets worse from here.

This is a publicly traded company that has eaten three years' worth of development costs on a multimillion-dollar license while publishing no game. Meanwhile its competitor, 2K Sports, at a fraction of the size, under corporate leadership that would jettison a licensed project at the first sign of trouble, has run out three consecutive white-hot excellent, year-round sales leaders, because anything less would mean the end of all their jobs.

Though an EA Sports spokesman insisted the entire NBA Live series has not been canceled, only this year's game, I think there's another reckoning to come in the form of the company's next quarterly earnings call. Last time they got on the phone with investors, the stock price was at a five-year low. It's not much better now.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby Dreamer4321 on Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:04 am

RE: POSTGAME

I just wanted to know if you guys at the nba live development team are aware about the poor net physics of every single nba live game in the past. Is it so difficult and time-consuming to make realistic net aninations? The net in nba live games moves as if it's made of steel.
Thanks
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby NovU on Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:16 am

shadowgrin wrote:
NovU wrote:On the topic of ratings, I should say probably most sports games in general have it somewhat biased than not. Say for instance, can't say am pleased with 2K13 player ratings. But they are probably more or less on par with casual fans' expectations, which still doesn't make it truly 'sim' enough for many of us. I mean it has Carmelo(& Kobe 4th best? lol) in the same mix with Chris Paul, when in reality, there absolutely is no good justification to this.

Why does it matter if Carmelo's and Kobe's overall ratings make them in the same mix as Chris Paul when it's the individual ratings that really matter and comparing or separating players based on overall ratings is not really truly 'sim' at all like you want it to.

Meh, while the notion that 'players overall rating don't matter but how they should play' is true, still the rating is a reflection of value measured and relates to how good players can perform in the game. And 2K ratings rely on popularity than actual statistics anyways.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby shadowgrin on Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:47 am

NovU wrote:Meh, while the notion that 'players overall rating don't matter but how they should play' is true, still the rating is a reflection of value measured and relates to how good players can perform in the game.

Not unless there is a flaw or deficiency on how that value is measured then it doesn't really reflect how good the player is, which is the case for the overall rating or even individual attributes that contribute to the value of the the overall rating such as defense, basketball I.Q., 'hustle', 'clutch', and others.
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby benji on Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:50 am

The thing is the overall ratings in most Live games were accurate in that regard because of how much the game overvalues speed, jumping, etc.

Steve Francis shouldn't have been a 90 overall except for the fact that if you used him he was dominant because of those things.

Even if in the real NBA...
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Re: NBA Live 13 will not be released

Postby fjccommish on Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:05 am

"The truth is we face a great number of much tougher decisions than that one, and that one to me is a no-brainer that you go with feature (A). When you are building a foundation you have to put all these things into perspective and realize that we want the same things you guys do but we are constantly strapped for time"

Shoes vs realistic play. Real looking players vs realistic play.
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