NBA Live 13 article @ Kotaku

[Andrew]

From Owen Good: Two Years Out of the NBA, EA Sports Puts Its Live Back Together

By the end of October 2010, everyone knew NBA Elite 11 was doomed. Though officially "delayed" that September, one week before the game was due to release, no one really expected it ever to ship, even internally. The ambitious makeover of the NBA Live franchise simply had too many problems to be published. That last Friday of the month, word spread from EA Sports' operations in California and Canada to Florida. NBA Elite would be canceled outright.

Jason Barnes, then at his desk in Florida working on an MMA game, took a call that day from someone on his studio's executive team. "If NBA was coming here," Barnes was asked, "what would you do?"

It was one of the most nightmarish episodes in EA Sports' history. Barnes, a 12-year veteran of the label, felt that keenly. And yet it also felt like the day a longtime dream might come true.

Definitely worth a read, with a few tidbits on NBA Live 13. Full ESPN branding confirmed with Mike Breen and Jeff Van Gundy on the call. There's also a couple of interesting notes on passing and AI.

[J-Hood]

Sounds like they are building off Elite and bringing back animations from previous Live games. Big plus for me

[Andrew]

Hopefully they've salvaged some of the better ideas from Elite, taking the best from previous Lives and adding some polish. Done right, that should make for a solid game.

[J-Hood]

Based on what he said about the passing game, is the game going to choose when to throw certain passes instead of the user having the option to do so?

[JaoSming]

ok, so....

• looks like auto alleyoops from 2003-2004 are back, which I'm OK with
• lack of deny defense 100% of the time to help with pass interceptions is a good idea, since NBA games dont always have they level of defense, but what happens in end of game or playoff situations when there is 100% deny ball D? interception issues again?
• ESPN, awesome, good, expected
• Online stability is good, but a meh point for me

I am really sick of hearing the "NBA Live 13 is going to be fundamental, don't expect a sophisticated game this year" stuff. I'm sorry, but when I think of a "fundamental game" I think NBA Live 06 on the 360, with no features and limited animations. Not having a one-off mode like 2K12's Greatest Mode or 2K11's Jordan mode doesn't make a game unsophisticated, just give us 5 on 5, online modes, ideally EASBA from Elite, and Dynasty and you have a full feature set for the year.

Anyway, animation variety has been a negative for Live in general for years and years, so I am really glad to read they will be using the full database they have access to.

[Patr1ck]

On 2K-

They play deny defense a lot, and that's where you see these interceptions happen."

Wrong. The reason is that for years both basketball companies haven't realized that only sometimes do NBA players stand still to receive a pass. Most of them are coming to the ball or flashing up on the perimeter to catch the swing pass. Even with deny defense, players come to the ball, even as far as turning the passer into a ball-screen with a hand-off to the receiver.

Auto alleyoops? What else is auto? I'm hoping there is a good balance between the cpu deciding the right play and me being able to control it. I really don't see why these things can't be turned into options with control modifiers.

Anyway, animation variety has been a negative for Live in general for years and years, so I am really glad to read they will be using the full database they have access to.

Not just variety, but player differentiating variety. They should just have the community choose the animations. Too bad they just can't put the entire database in there like we have tried to do with the PC Lives.

After reading the article I feel like it is a modders dream to just pick and choose what you wanted from each Live and try to get it into one game. Anyone feel the same?

[Andrew]

I am really sick of hearing the "NBA Live 13 is going to be fundamental, don't expect a sophisticated game this year" stuff. I'm sorry, but when I think of a "fundamental game" I think NBA Live 06 on the 360, with no features and limited animations. Not having a one-off mode like 2K12's Greatest Mode or 2K11's Jordan mode doesn't make a game unsophisticated, just give us 5 on 5, online modes, ideally EASBA from Elite, and Dynasty and you have a full feature set for the year.

Yeah, here's hoping that game modes have received some attention in addition to gameplay and online features. They've gone without major improvements in that regard for too long and that's where the replay value is.

[Leftos]

That's without knowing how much of the previous codebase Tiburion actually decided to keep. There's no telling which parts they've improved and which they started from scratch.

[JaoSming]

After reading the article I feel like it is a modders dream to just pick and choose what you wanted from each Live and try to get it into one game. Anyone feel the same?

That is the same feeling I got from that article.

That's without knowing how much of the previous codebase Tiburion actually decided to keep. There's no telling which parts they've improved and which they started from scratch.

My understanding was they were starting from scratch, but from this article it sounds like they started with Elite 11, removed aspects, added stuff from past games, then frankensteined it. I know there are new things Tiburon will be adding, but I don't think they are starting from scratch like I originally thought.

[Andrew]

Probably for the best, seeing as how that's set them back in the past while NBA 2K has found success tweaking and building upon what they've got. Here's hoping it pans out, at any rate.

[Patr1ck]

What bothered me about reading that is thinking they could have done the same thing at ea canada and saved the year it took them to learn elite 11.

[Andrew]

True. Trying to take a glass half full approach here though, perhaps it was for the best that the series fell hard the way it did, so they could take stock of the situation and change the approach moving forward, taking some time to assemble a new development team. It's not ideal perhaps, but given the way the series was kind of meandering there for a few years, making some progress while also taking a few steps back, it's surely served as a wakeup call. If nothing else, they can learn from past mistakes.

[Leftos]

I know one thing. A NEW development team on OLD code usually means DISASTER. Tiburon had better only reused code that is difficult to do from scratch (such as animations or AI). If you put a new developer on code they don't know, it'll take them A LOT OF time before they can even figure out what's happening, why's that code here, why is this done like that, etc. The old developers may have just as well worked on their part, not worrying about making the code "understandable", not caring about having to "teach" someone what the code does, but caring more about it "just working".

So lack of documentation and code written in the specific style of each developer could have left Tiburon with code it couldn't even touch. I hope they've made the most of these years to make their own code so that they can maintain it just as well.

Now that I think about it, after the 2K layoffs, this may just be the case for 2K's lack of support. Fewer developers means that you have to reassign everyone, giving every developer more code to maintain, and code that isn't theirs. This could be a reason that many issues went unanswered. Too few people, too much code, not enough info in the code for a "new" developer to work on.

I'm not blaming the developers. I am a developer myself, I know how hard it must be for them. I'm pretty sure that in the current economic state they're under constant pressure from the management to deliver on specific dates. Deadlines and money become more important than actual QA and quality in general, staff is laid off, and the remaining team is left to pick up the pieces. It's not just 2K, you hear this about a whole too many companies lately. (Remember the EA situation even before the crisis began, or the Team Bondi situation last year?)

[Bulls#1]

Agreed they should of have made everything from scratch except the hard things. I just wish Tiburon done a nice job for NBA Live 13 this year

[Patr1ck]

Thinking about what I have said in the past about EA rebuilding from scratch so often, I am happy that they are keeping things from Elite 11. I think most people understood that the game's ideas and concepts had promise, albeit unpolished, I am really interested in hearing about what they kept from Elite 11.

I also hope the auto pass-type selection is better than 2K's.

[Andrew]

I know one thing. A NEW development team on OLD code usually means DISASTER. Tiburon had better only reused code that is difficult to do from scratch (such as animations or AI). If you put a new developer on code they don't know, it'll take them A LOT OF time before they can even figure out what's happening, why's that code here, why is this done like that, etc. The old developers may have just as well worked on their part, not worrying about making the code "understandable", not caring about having to "teach" someone what the code does, but caring more about it "just working".

Hopefully that's all been accounted for. It's probably one of the things they were looking at during the year off; while they weren't developing anything new, they were likely examining the assets they did have, seeing what they wanted to keep and polish.

[Ermolli]

There's little to no hype in this article which could be seen from two points of view, one is that they've learnt from the Elite fiasco that overhyping a game isn't going to help them anymore or that they don't have much confidence in their new project. I prefer to believe the first option but who knows.

Despite its (many) flaws, NBA Elite had some things worth using like the idea of a live ball, the approach of Real Time Physics (even though those didn't work well in the demo), Real AI (although we couldn't really see it), the Become Legendary (which I hope this move is improved) and the Online modes that it was going to have (EASBA for example).

Even if they abandoned the controls of the game (I liked the idea of skill based shooting) I hope they kept something about the dribbling controls because it felt smooth but it would be better if they've expanded the possible moves.

I don't like the idea of a computer deciding what I want to do, that takes the liberty of the user to play the way one wants which isn't a good decision in my opinion.
I agree about why does EA have to compare its game with 2K and name its problems even they acknowledge how good NBA 2K12 is, they should concentrate in making their own game great instead of trying to make better what 2K doesn't do that well.

[JaoSming]

the approach of Real Time Physics (even though those didn't work well in the demo),

Actually, I thought the Real Time Physics (OK, animation chooser) worked really well in the demo. I played it the other day and nearly crapped myself when Rondo's layup attempt realistically collided with Pau when he cut off my lane. The animations were very jerky, but the end result was jaw dropping.

[Andrew]

There's little to no hype in this article which could be seen from two points of view, one is that they've learnt from the Elite fiasco that overhyping a game isn't going to help them anymore or that they don't have much confidence in their new project. I prefer to believe the first option but who knows.

It's early days. There's a lot more to come and no doubt a lot more hype to go along with it.

I don't like the idea of a computer deciding what I want to do, that takes the liberty of the user to play the way one wants which isn't a good decision in my opinion.
I agree about why does EA have to compare its game with 2K and name its problems even they acknowledge how good NBA 2K12 is, they should concentrate in making their own game great instead of trying to make better what 2K doesn't do that well.

I just posted about this in the other thread so I'll summarise here, but my interpretation is that we'll still have basic control. Players will just be smarter about selecting contextually appropriate passes, which has been a problem in past games. So long as we retain basic control, that seems like a step forward to me.

[fjccommish]

If the program selects one of a number of possible outcomes from a given controller action, that's a problem. Game control is best as a function...each input has one, predictable outcome. If the gamer throws a bounce pass when he should have thrown a chest pass, then he better learn a lesson about when to throw certain passes.

Having the program/computer make those decisions takes control from the gamer.

Contextual results are one thing. Running into a tiny guard is different from running into a wall. But treating player control with contextual action is a mistake. Let the gamer's brain judge the context, and come up with the right action. Worry about contextual actions with AI players.

It's frustrating to players when they intend one thing, but the same controller input results in a different on screen action.

[JaoSming]

....is this really all over the auto alley oops thing? It was fine in 2003 and 2004, it will be fine in 13.

[Patr1ck]

Only if they also have auto putbacks and auto off the glass to yourself breakaway oops.

[Andrew]

Considering that we currently don't have any control over whether we throw a chest pass or bounce pass, nothing is being taken away. It sounds more like a case of when the player leaves things up to the computer, better decisions will be made. Having said that, I'd rather wait for more information to be made available to better judge whether it's a good idea or not and have some hands-on time to truly make up my mind about it.

For whatever it's worth, the Advisory Council members came away with positive impressions of what they saw and played, so at this juncture I'm optimistic that the approach will pan out. We don't have too much to go on at the moment, there's much to be explained and clarified, so we'll see.

[fjccommish]

The comments about control aren't only in regard to auto alley oop. That's one example of a one input, multiple possible output situation. Those situations take control away from the gamer. One of the biggest problems with all basketball video games has been the gamer not having control.

[Postgame]

In regards to the concerns about alley-oops, like bruce lee said in enter the dragon:

"It is like a finger pointing a way to the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory."

All that has been talked about is the finger. Sorry for the cryptic message.