Inbounding & last second shots

[Andrew]

So, we've compiled Wishlists and mostly kept things in the centralised Wishlist threads over the past couple of years. We've got a game coming out later this year, so let's start creating some separate threads to talk about what we're hoping to see.

Seeing what 2K has done with inbound controls and plays in NBA 2K12, I'd like to see NBA Live 13 adopt something similar; both the ability to run inbounds plays and if nothing else, the ability to select the inbounder rather than it always being the small forward. The latter feature is definitely overdue and is very important to have with or without extensive inbounding plays, though needless to say it's crucial if there are some inbounding sets.

I'd also like to see the controls for shooting off inbounds passes expanded a little. In addition to alley-oops off the inbounds, I'd really like to have the ability to command a player to catch and shoot or attempt a tap when there isn't much time left on the clock. As it stands, last second plays are too easily botched by players taking too long to get a shot off, even though you're pressing shoot as soon as they receive the pass and options for quick shot attempts are limited.

Cutting down on canned animations and allowing the user to break out of them would certainly help there but I feel that some automatic controls on the inbounds play (ie the receipient automatically tries a quick shot/tap/whatever as soon as the pass gets to them) would also be useful. Player ratings would determine a player's chances of getting the shot off in time as well as making it.

[JaoSming]

I have not been able to figure out 2K12's inbounder/shooter selection dialog, it always seems to put the shooter as the inbounder and try to run a 5 second play for him, rather than give me control of him and get open. I guess simplicity is key.

Tip ins should be handled like alley oops IMO, maybe for the sake of inbound alley oops the tip in animations could also be used.

[Andrew]

Well, NBA Live 13's version would preferably work a bit better than that. As I said it's overdue, along with a way of getting a shot off quickly and not running out of time due to a lengthy gather/shooting animation.

[Patr1ck]

I would like to see some custom inbound plays that are user created and shareable online for the different spots on the floor where players inbound. This could also make timeouts more intricate than just subbing players and setting basic strategies. I don't think it would be that hard since developers are still using frame based plays. Setting way points and whether a player uses a screen or sets a screen at a way point, takes a shot, makes a pass, isolates, posts, etc should not be that hard to implement. Also, on defense, they would need to add the ability for some quick defensive stategies to shut down the inbound play like don't guard the inbounder, or set individual players to play zone or man-to-man, or even anticipate where and who the pass is going to be made to. If you guess right, the defender has a better chance of stealing the pass. They could leave room for improvement by implementing options based around double teams or how the defense plays a certain screen or other player specific coaching options for the next year.

I thought I played a game that had quick shots when you shot with a very small amount of time left on the clock, but I can't recall which one. I really hate when those long animations play out and you can't get a shot off. It makes it a game of learning the animations rather than having the skills and precise timing of knocking down that last second shot. Making sure a player can interrupt a dribbling or momentum gathering animation or at the very least, tie a shot release into it so we aren't stuck waiting.

Ask yourself this question. How would you implement Derek Fisher's 0.4 in a way that it could be used in a game? Not the specific animation, but just the quick catch and fire. Slow the game down like the matrix and use some kind of meter? Make it all chance based on ratings? Use a very tiny shot window for the release?

[Andrew]

I think that's a situation where you'd need an "inbound and immediately shoot" control. I'd imagine a player's speed/quickness ratings and clutch would do a fair job governing the chances of it getting off in time and making the shot, in addition to a player's position on the court and their general shooting ratings. Slowing the gameplay down or having some kind of metered mini-game is an interesting idea though.

[[Q]]

Based off of the Live 09/Live10 timeout screen, it wouldn't be that hard to hold the direct pass button of the guy you want to inbound the ball as they show the cutscene where the players are coming back onto the court.

[Andrew]

It'd definitely be easy enough to implement on-the-fly, as well as having a function for it in the pause menu.

[Patr1ck]

It's possible that they could queue the shot up on the inbounds if you hold the shot button down right after you pass it.

[Andrew]

Yeah, that might be the easiest way to get it into the game sooner rather than later. Perhaps turbo or another modifier could determine whether it's catch and shoot or a tap attempt.

[Patr1ck]

Yeah, having the turbo as a modifier for quick release shots with very little time on the clock is a good idea.

[Andrew]

Of course, you'd still have to be very quick and precise to get the shot off with a decent chance of making it when there's 0.4 or whatever left. As in real life, that shouldn't be too easy to do and good defense should stand a good chance of denying a final shot in those situations. Ensuring that players have a realistic chance of getting a shot off with one or two seconds left is key here, as those are the more frustrating opportunities being blown by lengthy animations.

[Patr1ck]

True, but if they can replicate the possibility of getting a shot or a tip off at 0.4, then I think getting a shot off with 2 seconds would be a bit easier.

[[Q]]

they should do it like Madden where how long you hold the button determines what happens. in madden, when you hold the pass button down longer, it's a harder pass (which might be a good way to do the regular passing system in Live). but at the end of the game, if you hold turbo, and lightly tap the shoot button to shoot, it'll be a quick lob attempt while holding a bit longer will make the player try more of a "regular " shot attempt.

[Andrew]

True, but if they can replicate the possibility of getting a shot or a tip off at 0.4, then I think getting a shot off with 2 seconds would be a bit easier.

Absolutely. I just meant that getting shots off - and making them - with something like 0.4 seconds should still be difficult with an addition like this. I wouldn't expect to have too much success in that situation, Fisher's shot was miraculous after all. I'd really only expect a decent chance to reap the benefits when there's a bit more time on the clock.

they should do it like Madden where how long you hold the button determines what happens. in madden, when you hold the pass button down longer, it's a harder pass (which might be a good way to do the regular passing system in Live). but at the end of the game, if you hold turbo, and lightly tap the shoot button to shoot, it'll be a quick lob attempt while holding a bit longer will make the player try more of a "regular " shot attempt.

Yeah, something along those lines would work.

[Patr1ck]

Of course it should be difficult. You don't want everybody waiting till that last second knowing that they have a high chance to knock it down.

[Andrew]

Exactly. Ideally the degree of difficulty should be realistically represented, to avoid cheese from everyone...perhaps most of all the CPU, which traditionally has had a habit of knocking down ridiculous shots when it really needs to. I wouldn't want to see a situation like Freestyle Superstars where the concept is good, but it's easily exploited.

[Cpt(K)]

I noticed something like that last night, the CPU was inbounding the ball at half court, with 24 seconds left. They get it in, and the CPU takes a long contested three pointer (With like 2 guys doubling him) . . and nails it with a Power Forward that has a 3pt rating of 72. Which I don't think is very good.

It's also difficult to get a shot off with time running out, when your inbounder throws an ill-advised lob over a 6'1 guard, that causes your player to have to leap just to get the ball, which usually eats up all the time you have left.

[koberulz]

I have not been able to figure out 2K12's inbounder/shooter selection dialog, it always seems to put the shooter as the inbounder and try to run a 5 second play for him, rather than give me control of him and get open.

I used this for the first time last night, inbounding with Artest to Kobe for three, and it just sat Kobe right in front of Artest, standing there with no play at all, then when I inbounded the ball had Bynum follow Kobe around so there was a 7-footer to contest any three I wanted to put up. Still no play being run.

[Andrew]

I noticed something like that last night, the CPU was inbounding the ball at half court, with 24 seconds left. They get it in, and the CPU takes a long contested three pointer (With like 2 guys doubling him) . . and nails it with a Power Forward that has a 3pt rating of 72. Which I don't think is very good.

It's something I'd like to see toned down. I know developers have to find a way to keep the CPU competitive and give it the tools to deal with a human player that can think outside the box as well as take advantage of exploits of their own, but you always feel cheated when it happens. Miraculous plays from unexpected players do happen of course, but the AI in basketball games tends to be just a little too lucky in that regard.

[Cpt(K)]

they should do it like Madden where how long you hold the button determines what happens. in madden, when you hold the pass button down longer, it's a harder pass (which might be a good way to do the regular passing system in Live). but at the end of the game, if you hold turbo, and lightly tap the shoot button to shoot, it'll be a quick lob attempt while holding a bit longer will make the player try more of a "regular " shot attempt.

That Reminds me of NBA LIVE 2005, I think I remember if you released the shoot button quickly then you could do something like that.

[Andrew]

There were early and late release animations on jumpshots, with the ability to put up a quick shot at the cost of reducing its chances to go in.

[mp3]

I have not been able to figure out 2K12's inbounder/shooter selection dialog, it always seems to put the shooter as the inbounder and try to run a 5 second play for him, rather than give me control of him and get open. I guess simplicity is key.

Tip ins should be handled like alley oops IMO, maybe for the sake of inbound alley oops the tip in animations could also be used.

Inbound plays in 2k have being a waste of time imo 9 out of 10 result in a 5 sec call.

[[Q]]

sounds like they went to Vinny Del Negro's school of inbounds plays

[Bulls#1]

Lol I remember that silly inbound plays by Del Negro.