4 Critical OS Threads to Read

[JaoSming]

Operation Sports has changed a bit. Instead of banning people who say anything negative about the game all of the veterans have been giving their honest 2 cents about Elite 11. All of these posts quote the developers and share my main concerns with this game and current reboot.

3 Year Plan By WTF
Great look at all of EA's Next Gen games and explaining each reboot and the previous 3 year plans that never made it past year 2.

Real Time Physics just a general buzz-term for physicality? By Jesus (lol)
Shows us that there isn't any "real" physical animation engine in this game, it's an animation chooser so theoretically we could see the same exact collision happen multiple times. Very good rebuttals from the devs in this one.

EA why after 5 years can't we get improved animations? By Playmakers
Playmakers finally venting his frustrations (he's been building up steam for a while) and gives a good debate on the sacrificing animation quality for better controls.

Suction, Control, and Animations By 23
Video Comparison of NBA Elite 11's features to NBA Live 08. The thread as a whole is better than the first post.

[shadowgrin]

The feeling I'm getting from the posts at OS is that a hit or miss with the demo will ultimately determine Elite's fate.
Holy crap, EA better get its shite together just for a demo. Talk about pressure.

[JaoSming]

I have this uneasy feeling about the demo because first the devs said "Wait till you see our blogs" then it was "Wait till you our videos", now it's "Wait till you play the demo", then I'm sure it will be "Demo was an old build, buy the game to see what we mean"

Just wait and see. You can't advertise physics after GTA 4, RDR, and Backbreaker and have it end up being a collision animation chooser and then act surprised when it backfires. I really really wish the demo makes me see the light and I have a great, "organic", basketball game to look forward to that makes all this muck worth it.

[Patr1ck]

It's hard to market RTP when people have no idea what it is. We've all been playing games that utilize real-time physics in some way or another for several years now. Whether it is ragdolls, exploding and bouncing particles, destructible environments, cloth effects, etc.

I think the fact that the NBA Live developers actually did not like their own game is very important. They seem to finally get that what they have been doing was wrong.

As for that old code, I remember a developer a long time ago saying that they still had code from Lakers vs Celtics in the game.

[JaoSming]

As for that old code, I remember a developer a long time ago saying that they still had code from Lakers vs Celtics in the game.

I remember that too, i think that was in the Live 08 dev cycle

lol at that post though. Someone claiming to be a 07/08 QA person for EA and says he decompiled the game to show that 07 wasn't a complete reboot. (stupid jao, you gotta trust people man)

[shadowgrin]

Why would you have a problem paying full price for a game that has a plan for the future?

That seems like a positive to me.

If we had no plan for the future wouldn't that be concerning? Wouldn't you be less likely to invest your time into something that didn't have a clear direction set?

Hi-larious

If I didn't have the sweet sig that is Kobe and Latrell quote, I would make that my sig.

[JaoSming]

The obvious problem is paying full price for a shitty game with nothing but a promise that next year will be better (with a pretty bad track record behind that promise)

wait, I whined about that before

How many $60 games are still in between now and a $60 NBA Live/Elite game that is a "satisfying gaming experience in all aspects" to the makers of the game to the point where they won't throw the game under the bus the next year in the first trailer. (referencing the comparison trailers of "Look how crappy last year's game was at this, now look at this" which started with 08 I believe)

[shadowgrin]

Oh man, that EA dev rEAnimator is loaded with quotables! Here's another one...

We appear to have the support of the company to execute on the three year plan Litty described in his interview.

There will obviously have to some signs of progress for that support to continue, but I really don't see any change of direction happening any time soon.

A lot can happen in 3 years and what signs of progress would that be? Sales? Metacritic score (lol)?

I think rEAnimator has an NLSC account.

If he keeps this up I may have to compile his best quotes on OS and posts it here.

[JaoSming]

you're just quoting him, maybe a bit out of context, but I seriously have all the respect in the world for him for sticking through all this stuff and not disappearing like the NCAA Basketball 10 guys.

[ThaLiveKing]

Honestly, I never paid attention to these 3-year plans that EA has done, because I'm all about the final product. If the demo and video sucks, I don't buy it. But after reading those post in the OS forum, I have to agree with the posters. EA doesn't have a core of people working on their titles. People are in and out, maybe cause of too much corporate control. I hate to say it, when you compare Elite to 2k11, it's like 2k is the real basketball fans, and Elite, is just a bunch of workers trying to put out a product. I say that because, U can tell how much the people at 2k care about their games and consumers with the amount of detail they have put in this years game. And to think, EA just says we didn't focus on this, we just wanted better controls. I'm sure it doesn't take THAT LONG, to add a new control scheme, espeically if your taking it from another EA Sports game. I don't even buy into alot of the bullshit EA says, because like I said, it's all about the final product, that shows what you have been working on all year. IF the outcome is not good, then, the FOCUS, is obvously the problem.

I thought NBA Live 09 was finally getting there, but was happy with 10. For Elite They could have just used the same engine and moves from NBA Live 09 AND/OR 10 and add it to the new controls, instead of re adding generic/basis moves to the game. then spend time focusing on the new RTP. Maybe mo cap some new collision animation to add in the game, I don't know how it works, but instead of overhauling the games, I'm sure it's much easier to change what's already there and work with what you have. Maybe they should start doing that because people are running out of patience

[shadowgrin]

you're just quoting him, maybe a bit out of context, but I seriously have all the respect in the world for him for sticking through all this stuff and not disappearing like the NCAA Basketball 10 guys.

I guess, maybe, but here's what I posted in OS before I posted here...

We appreciate your interaction with the community, your honesty, and faith in your bosses but a lot can happen in 3 years. Besides, what signs of progress would that be? Sales? Metacritic score (lol)?

I understand and appreciate what he's trying to do but I wouldn't be too sure about no change in direction in staying with their intended 3 year plan, as what I underlined above.

[JaoSming]

in the suction thread reanimator is attempting to discredit all the work Tomba and Playmakers did with the ratings fixes they did to make the games better by saying the game was flawed to begin with so Elite is better. he wont win that one.....

its really starting to get ugly over there. but he's still toughing it out, even made shadow shut up

I understand and appreciate what he's trying to do but I wouldn't be too sure about no change in direction in staying with their intended 3 year plan, as what I underlined above.

Hopefully it doesnt....but I wouldnt be surprised if next year it is all about animations and showing how the gameplay looks exactly like it does in reallife, smooth and no jerky animations......and then they remove all the control changes and physics to achieve that goal.

[shadowgrin]

I may not post a lot in OS but I don't want to go all out and get banned in there. I need my info and interact with some members for that info.

Got to admit. The man has balls.
I just hope he doesn't pull any bonehead moves that will burn bridges either with the community or the 'enemy' camp like what 2K Community Manager Ronnie Singh did last year against EA.

[JaoSming]

Beluba has been posting in the NBA Elite section a few times, mostly joking around with the other devs

[shadowgrin]

Beluba has friends at EA, so that's expected. I used 'enemy' for lack of a better term but yeah, I do get the impression that the 2K and EA devs that don't know each other do get along or at least cordial with each other at OS.
As compared to Ron who basically flamed the EA devs with his comments last year, and a Community Manager at that showing bad PR skills.

[The X]

I really don't know why the EA guys are looking for approval over at OS. To me it seems like some of the developers who really love basketball & do want to make the best game possible, but the leadership at the top is lacking, hence the direction change every year. I now see why Wang jumped ship back to 2k the minute EA decided it was time to reboot.

[[Q]]

so did Wang work on Live 10? or was that 09 only? i forget these sort of things

[shadowgrin]

He was already with EA during 09 but was mostly involved with Live 10.

[JaoSming]

lol at that post though. Someone claiming to be a 07/08 QA person for EA and says he decompiled the game to show that 07 wasn't a complete reboot.

noshun's the real deal, just wanted to fix that inaccurate statement

[[Q]]

He was already with EA during 09 but was mostly involved with Live 10.

so that's why Live 10 was a great basketball game

[Andrew]

I'd suggest the constant reboots are due to changes at the top of the dev team before the three year cycle is complete and panic caused by Metacritic scores...or at least, those are two things that I think heavily influence the decision to scrap this or that and start over. Hopefully David Littman's vision succeeds and he'll be able to see it through to the end. As far as the Metacritic stuff is concerned, there's so much emphasis on whether a game gets 75 or 90 or 87 or 63 or whatever that it's no surprise the game keeps trying to make a big play every year rather than building on what they've got.

[Patr1ck]

so that's why Live 10 was a great basketball game

It was?

[Andrew]

NBA Live 10 did show some improvement (post-patch glitches aside) but on the whole it wasn't quite the game I was hoping for.

[benji]

As for that old code, I remember a developer a long time ago saying that they still had code from Lakers vs Celtics in the game.

Madden's AI still ruins routines from the original game and the 3DO version. Greg Thomas said when they worked on Madden they were not allowed to change it, even if they made it drastically better and more realistic, the games had to play like Madden not simulate football accurately.

Although he might need to look into his own company since you can trace plenty of 2K's workings back to Action/Fastbreak '98. I believe it was noted last year they're still using a lot of the ol Dreamcast junk as the base of the network code.

Both companies would do well to realize they can't make real changes in a ten month dev cycle. They need to splinter off a small team to work towards 2K14 and Elite 14 that ramps up by a third every year, while the next two games increase in rehash status. It's simply impossible to reinvent a series in ten months, which is why they promise the universe when they start out and deliver a bit more than last years title.

Let's say 2K11 delivers fixing the online and all the other problems from 2K10, Jordan crap and My Career deliver. If they released a 2K12 DLC for $10 that updated rosters/jerseys/courts/etc. for another year, added in rookies, more classic teams, kept the servers up, etc. (Obviously they also kept patching things and maybe making a couple small gameplay/function tweaks fans were clamoring for.) Then for 2K13, it was the result of a double length dev cycle, where if they wanted to work on the control scheme they didn't have to design it and build it in half a year, but could spend six months working on the design and a year implementing it with a few more months for polish. I'm not sure too many people would complain especially as the end products improve. Plus the consumer is only paying $35 a year instead of $60. (And giving people a reason to keep your yearly dump keeps it out of the hand of that evil nemesis of yours, (PRE-ORDER BONUS EXCLUSIVE AT) Gamestop.)

If all the people who abandoned the product are going to come back when the three-year plans finally work out (you know when each new three-year plan guy finally stops quitting within a year) and rise the title to great new sales heights, they'd probably do the same if you took a year off from dumping yet another game at retail (just to shut it off so they have to get the new one to keep playing online, even it it's worse) to give them a superior product each time and not tar your brand.

[[Q]]

so that's why Live 10 was a great basketball game

It was?

i had fun playing it